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Noisy K3 receiver

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Ralph Parker

Noisy K3 receiver

Disclaimer:
I admit that I'm a crochety old-timer, 55 years on the air on this coming
Friday, and have had many receivers/transcievers on the desk. I operate a
lot of contests, mostly CW. I spent 45 years recording sound, and think I
have a pretty good ear. I agree that the K3 has many fine features,
including an outstanding ability to eliminate QRM from stations outside my
passband, and I've come to love the diversity feature, particularly on 160.

Now, about the noise:
>I have tried all the adjustments mentioned, but with no real improvement...

Me, too.
I've had #1823 for just over a year, and I still don't like the sound of
the receiver. That's the reason the K3 sat in a box for months while my
trusty FT-1000mkV sat on the operating desk (until the MkV went on strike
in the middle of the SS CW :-(

I have an antenna distribution system that grounds my antennas when they
are not in use. I installed the new K3 on the desk last year, but when I
turned off the antennas, the noise (hiss) from the (separate) speaker was
hardly reduced, whereas with the MkV, it went almost completely silent
(same speaker). Same thing with a headset. Hmmmm.....

I don't pay much attention to the S-meter on the K3 - it doesn't seem to
mean much to me, whereas I could use the S-meter on the MkV to judge
relative signal strengths of stations I heard, and keep an eye on the local
noises generated by the neighbours and the power company. I could put a
piece of tape over the meter (a'la Click & Clack) and not miss it much.

I have also been struggling with the AGC. I've looked at the suggested
settings posted by other owners, and tried to understand them, but to
almost no avail. Then I read "...the K3 "RF Gain" control ONLY controls the
IF gain - it does not reduce the gain of the receiver front end... The
preamp and attenuator DO change the front end gain." AHA! Maybe that's it!

I'm used to leaving the RF gain wide open on the MkV, leaving the audio
gain pretty much alone, and maybe switching between SLOW and FAST
occasionally. I don't seem to have any trouble hearing the weak ones under
the strong ones.
Now I have to fiddle with the RF gain (a small knob hidden amongst the
others) while running a pileup. Not enough hands (or enough brains).

I think I'll try the new 'DSP Rev.C' board and see if it helps the audio.
Hopefully, if I can then conquer the 'AGC settings' monster, I'll be more
comfortable with the radio.

I'd use the audio equalizer if there was a convenient way to turn it on/off
(maybe via PF-1). BTW, I don't expect the K3 to sound like a 'studio
recording' - I do know the difference.

And I'd like more gain from the speaker amp. I have CONFIG: AF GAIN set to
'low', and the AF gain control set to about 10:00 o'clock for comfortable
headset volume. When I pull the headset out, I have to increase the gain to
3:00 o'clock or greater. If I set CONFIG to 'high', there's way too much
gain for the headset. My speakers are reasonably efficient - Auritone 5Cs,
but I have tried many others.

Tnx for letting me vent. Am I getting too old? Should I take up knitting?
I'd be interested in hearing from other CW contesters.

VE7XF

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Bill W4ZV

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

Ralph Parker wrote

I'm used to leaving the RF gain wide open on the MkV, leaving the audio
gain pretty much alone, and maybe switching between SLOW and FAST
occasionally. I don't seem to have any trouble hearing the weak ones under
the strong ones.
Now I have to fiddle with the RF gain (a small knob hidden amongst the
others) while running a pileup. Not enough hands (or enough brains).

If you set up your K3 as you described above, I guarantee you will have a noisy RX. Furthermore, you are wasting the dynamic range of the K3 (or your MkV for that matter). In a previous post I described how to set up the K3. Once set up correctly, you should seldom need to touch either RF or AF gain during an entire contest and can simply let the K3's excellent AGC and dynamic range do the work for you. IMHO good ergonomics doesn't mean having access to 24 knobs that need to be continually adjusted, it means not having to adjust them in the first place.

73, Bill W4ZV

Ed Muns, W0YK

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Ralph Parker

> I've had #1823 for just over a year, and I still don't like
> the sound of the receiver. That's the reason the K3 sat in a
> box for months while my trusty FT-1000mkV sat on the
> operating desk (until the MkV went on strike in the middle of
> the SS CW :-(

I've read all the posts in this thread and have to say ... I just don't "get
it". What noise?! If anything my two K3s are too quiet! It has occurred
to me more than once that I might have an antenna disconnected or perhaps
blew out the front-end to the radio. The most distinguishing characteristic
of the K3 (for me) is how quiet it is when you slip on the headphones. The
K3 is distinctively quiet compared all the Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood radios I
own or have operated. I now realize that all the pre-K3 radios I've used
were somehow amplifying or emphasizing the band noise, plus adding a bunch
of digital artifacts, in the audio. I am completely stunned by the posts
here that report "noisy K3 receiver" and escaping to a "quieter" Japanese
radio.

I've been using K3s 11 and 17 ever since the field test units first came
out. I've kept current with all the updates and mods so despite the early
serial numbers, these radios are equivalent to what is currently shipping.
I always have the latest field test firmware in both radios. This is
pre-Beta and pre-production firmware that has never interfered with my use
of the radio. I use the radios primarily for CW, RTTY and (rarely) SSB
contesting, plus a bit of DXing. It took me a full month of using the K3 to
finally accept the fact that its receiver is so incredibly quiet compared to
any other radio. I thought something was wrong! And yet with the greatly
reduced band noise in the headphones, extremely weak signal are easy to
copy. 80 and 160 are like new bands, more like the higher bands, with my
K3s. And the pile-up/crowded band receive capability is far superior to any
radio I've ever operated.

I'm not doubting the reports here on the reflector about "noisy K3
receiver", but I have to say that either the specific radio has a major
defect or the various gain and AGC controls are not setup correctly. W4ZV
has posted on this reflector several excellent explanations on how to
properly adjust the K3, or any radio for that matter. I would love to hear
one of these "noisy K3 receivers" and see how they are configured.

Ed - W0YK
-----------------------------------------------
Ed Muns
Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com
FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard

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Steve Ellington

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

Ed
I agree. I have no idea what these people are talking about.
I've had a lot of radios. My last was the IC-7800 which sat beside the K3
for a month until I sold it. I can't imagine what this noise is that people
think they hear. Perhaps a .wav file from someone would be helpful.

Steve
N4LQ
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Muns" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

>> I've had #1823 for just over a year, and I still don't like
>> the sound of the receiver. That's the reason the K3 sat in a
>> box for months while my trusty FT-1000mkV sat on the
>> operating desk (until the MkV went on strike in the middle of
>> the SS CW :-(
>
> I've read all the posts in this thread and have to say ... I just don't
> "get
> it". What noise?! If anything my two K3s are too quiet! It has occurred
> to me more than once that I might have an antenna disconnected or perhaps
> blew out the front-end to the radio. The most distinguishing
> characteristic
> of the K3 (for me) is how quiet it is when you slip on the headphones.
> The
> K3 is distinctively quiet compared all the Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood radios
> I
> own or have operated. I now realize that all the pre-K3 radios I've used
> were somehow amplifying or emphasizing the band noise, plus adding a bunch
> of digital artifacts, in the audio. I am completely stunned by the posts
> here that report "noisy K3 receiver" and escaping to a "quieter" Japanese
> radio.
>
> I've been using K3s 11 and 17 ever since the field test units first came
> out. I've kept current with all the updates and mods so despite the early
> serial numbers, these radios are equivalent to what is currently shipping.
> I always have the latest field test firmware in both radios. This is
> pre-Beta and pre-production firmware that has never interfered with my use
> of the radio. I use the radios primarily for CW, RTTY and (rarely) SSB
> contesting, plus a bit of DXing. It took me a full month of using the K3
> to
> finally accept the fact that its receiver is so incredibly quiet compared
> to
> any other radio. I thought something was wrong! And yet with the greatly
> reduced band noise in the headphones, extremely weak signal are easy to
> copy. 80 and 160 are like new bands, more like the higher bands, with my
> K3s. And the pile-up/crowded band receive capability is far superior to
> any
> radio I've ever operated.
>
> I'm not doubting the reports here on the reflector about "noisy K3
> receiver", but I have to say that either the specific radio has a major
> defect or the various gain and AGC controls are not setup correctly. W4ZV
> has posted on this reflector several excellent explanations on how to
> properly adjust the K3, or any radio for that matter. I would love to
> hear
> one of these "noisy K3 receivers" and see how they are configured.
>
> Ed - W0YK
> -----------------------------------------------
> Ed Muns
> Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com
> FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

srife

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

You guys may be exceptions to the rule. The # of complaints seem to
far outweigh what you two guys are saying. I'm not saying you are wrong,
just that it seems that a lot of people are hearing a problem. I have
SN/0690 and to my ears it has always been on the noisy side. Some of this
may be due to ignorance about how to set up the K3 properly. I am pretty
sure that is true on my end, in part. I have never tried to dig deep enough
in the manual or the menus to try and make the situation any better. It is a
little intimidating to me and that is why I have never dug too deep in to
the menus to try and make things better.

I hope to change all this in the near future. I am catching up on
the mods and upgrades and with an updated manual I hope to have some success
in making my K3 sound better to MY ears.

Ed, I most definitely have never felt like that my K3 was TOO quiet.
Lots of background static and hash that is fatiguing to listen to. I don't
know what else to say...I know I am not imagining it. I would much wrather
listen to my TS-830s, but I have hung in there with the K3 knowing that
there is light at the end of the tunnel. I just have to figure out what page
that is on in the manual. hi hi

Stan Rife
W5EWA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Ellington
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 1:10 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

Ed
I agree. I have no idea what these people are talking about.
I've had a lot of radios. My last was the IC-7800 which sat beside the K3
for a month until I sold it. I can't imagine what this noise is that people
think they hear. Perhaps a .wav file from someone would be helpful.

Steve
N4LQ
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Muns" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

David Gilbert

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Ed Muns, W0YK

I also don't understand the comments about the K3 being noisy ... it
beats the pants off any previous rig I've ever had. One of the things
I've had to get used to is that the K3 is SO quiet, and yet so
sensitive, that I often get startled by signals as I tune across them
(and I almost always have the AGC on).

I also strongly suspect that the choice of settings is the root problem
for many. Why don't those who feel the rig is noisy post their
operating settings here so the rest of us can have something to work
with? I mean all the AGC settings, as well as filter bandwidths,
passband shift, RX EQ, typical RF and AF Gain positions, NR if
applicable, etc.

73,
Dave AB7E

Ed Muns wrote:
> I'm not doubting the reports here on the reflector about "noisy K3
> receiver", but I have to say that either the specific radio has a major
> defect or the various gain and AGC controls are not setup correctly. W4ZV
> has posted on this reflector several excellent explanations on how to
> properly adjust the K3, or any radio for that matter. I would love to hear
> one of these "noisy K3 receivers" and see how they are configured.
>
> Ed - W0YK
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David Cutter

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Ed Muns, W0YK

I completely agree and it was the same revelation for me when I first
switched on my K2 on 80m sat next to a FT1k at G6MC contest station: simply
astonishing.

David
G3UNA

> I've read all the posts in this thread and have to say ... I just don't
> "get
> it". What noise?! If anything my two K3s are too quiet! It has occurred
> to me more than once that I might have an antenna disconnected or perhaps
> blew out the front-end to the radio. The most distinguishing
> characteristic
> of the K3 (for me) is how quiet it is when you slip on the headphones.
> The
> K3 is distinctively quiet compared all the Icom, Yaesu and Kenwood radios
> I
> own or have operated. I now realize that all the pre-K3 radios I've used
> were somehow amplifying or emphasizing the band noise, plus adding a bunch
> of digital artifacts, in the audio. I am completely stunned by the posts
> here that report "noisy K3 receiver" and escaping to a "quieter" Japanese
> radio.
> . W4ZV
> has posted on this reflector several excellent explanations on how to
> properly adjust the K3, or any radio for that matter. I would love to
> hear
> one of these "noisy K3 receivers" and see how they are configured.
>
> Ed - W0YK
> -----------------------------------------------

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Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by srife

Stan,

Those who are complaining are the exceptions to the rule.

There are thousands of K3 users that are not complaining. There are a few,
very vocal complainers here.

73,

Bob W5OV
(with no complaints)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 1:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

You guys may be exceptions to the rule. The # of complaints seem to
far outweigh what you two guys are saying. I'm not saying you are wrong,
just that it seems that a lot of people are hearing a problem. I have
SN/0690 and to my ears it has always been on the noisy side. Some of this
may be due to ignorance about how to set up the K3 properly. I am pretty
sure that is true on my end, in part. I have never tried to dig deep enough
in the manual or the menus to try and make the situation any better. It is a
little intimidating to me and that is why I have never dug too deep in to
the menus to try and make things better.

I hope to change all this in the near future. I am catching up on
the mods and upgrades and with an updated manual I hope to have some success
in making my K3 sound better to MY ears.

Ed, I most definitely have never felt like that my K3 was TOO quiet.
Lots of background static and hash that is fatiguing to listen to. I don't
know what else to say...I know I am not imagining it. I would much wrather
listen to my TS-830s, but I have hung in there with the K3 knowing that
there is light at the end of the tunnel. I just have to figure out what page
that is on in the manual. hi hi

Stan Rife
W5EWA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Ellington
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 1:10 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

Ed
I agree. I have no idea what these people are talking about.
I've had a lot of radios. My last was the IC-7800 which sat beside the K3
for a month until I sold it. I can't imagine what this noise is that people
think they hear. Perhaps a .wav file from someone would be helpful.

Steve
N4LQ
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Muns" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

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----

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Barry N1EU

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by David Cutter

If you routinely and mechanically turn RF Gain to maximum with PRE on, thinking that's the way to get maximum sensitivity and work dx (it isn't), your K3 is going to sound "noisy" with noise rushing up and down with AGC action. The easiest solution to this dilemna is simply to turn down the value of AGC THReshold in the config menu.

73,
Barry N1EU

daleputnam

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by srife

Well... if the noisy rx is just way too much to handle... too much to suffer with...

I could be convinced to help you out... by paying the shipping to get it from there to here.

Just to help you out you see. Look at all the advantages......

You would be free to find a lot less noise.... no wait... that would have happened already...

I'd have to put up with the noise...

oh... well... a deal is a deal....

my addresss is easy to find, I'll supply it and the box... even pay for packing...

just to let you get outta your misery...

Merry Christmas,

--... ..---

Dale - WC7S in Wy

*G*

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Doug Turnbull

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Bob Naumann W5OV

Guys,
I am not complaining but learning and the vocal complainers are helping
in this process. Let us not be too precious regarding critique as it has
already led to an improved K3! I may yet better learn how to squeeze the
maximum out of my K3. Perhaps an improved manual is needed? More
guidelines could be provided but of course this will all change with the
next upgrade. Such is progress which most K3 owners are delighted with. To
me this is an excellent thread and may clear up confusion. My profession
is Electronics Engineering and I can indeed learn so also might a Medical
Doctor, Truck Driver or Old Age Pensioner. So let us try to understand
what is being said here and see if help can be provided. The K3 is being
asked to do an awful lot and is proving it self able to adapt to new
requirements boy are we fortunate.

The 'complainers' are almost all saying they find their K3s to be an
excellent radio. I have been involved in other radio forums and found that
some people are very sensitive to any criticism of their chosen radio. The
Elecrafter Company takes a more open and it seems to me Scientific approach
for which this dinosaur is most grateful. Peace to all, Happy Christmas
and Happy Holidays.
73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob Naumann
Sent: 18 December 2009 12:07
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

Stan,

Those who are complaining are the exceptions to the rule.

There are thousands of K3 users that are not complaining. There are a few,
very vocal complainers here.

73,

Bob W5OV
(with no complaints)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 1:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

You guys may be exceptions to the rule. The # of complaints seem to
far outweigh what you two guys are saying. I'm not saying you are wrong,
just that it seems that a lot of people are hearing a problem. I have
SN/0690 and to my ears it has always been on the noisy side. Some of this
may be due to ignorance about how to set up the K3 properly. I am pretty
sure that is true on my end, in part. I have never tried to dig deep enough
in the manual or the menus to try and make the situation any better. It is a
little intimidating to me and that is why I have never dug too deep in to
the menus to try and make things better.

I hope to change all this in the near future. I am catching up on
the mods and upgrades and with an updated manual I hope to have some success
in making my K3 sound better to MY ears.

Ed, I most definitely have never felt like that my K3 was TOO quiet.
Lots of background static and hash that is fatiguing to listen to. I don't
know what else to say...I know I am not imagining it. I would much wrather
listen to my TS-830s, but I have hung in there with the K3 knowing that
there is light at the end of the tunnel. I just have to figure out what page
that is on in the manual. hi hi

Stan Rife
W5EWA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Ellington
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 1:10 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

Ed
I agree. I have no idea what these people are talking about.
I've had a lot of radios. My last was the IC-7800 which sat beside the K3
for a month until I sold it. I can't imagine what this noise is that people
think they hear. Perhaps a .wav file from someone would be helpful.

Steve
N4LQ
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Muns" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

w4ish

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

Hello all!
I have read the many comments upon the noisy K3 receiver with interest. I, too, have always thought the K3 somewhat noisy, but that is in comparison to the other receivers I have. The best sound from a modern receiver to me has been from the Ten Tec OMNI VII. When I place the RF gain on that radio to about 25-35%, the noise is gone and the signals are still there, for a true treat of listening without fatigue. When I first got the K3, I was disappointed with the fatiguing hiss or artifacts (definitely higher frequencies) which I experienced. Over the two years of having the K3, though, I have seen gradual improvements while I have learned to adjust the AGC parameters.

I added all the mods which had to do with audio, and each one brought a little improvement. Now, somedays I am amazed at how quiet the K3 seems to be, with the signals just popping out of the noise, while other days I still wonder what I need to adjust. I also realize that my hearing, which has a peak at approx. 4000-5000 Hz, is somewhat sensitive to higher pitched noise.

I do understand that those who find it tiring to listen to the K3 are honestly reporting their experience. Isn't it wonderful that we now have a radio which allows us to become aware of:
1) A spectrum analysis of our hearing loss/gain so we can make adjustments to compensate for damage, age, etc.;
2) Our opportunity to learn the differences in atmospheric and operating conditions, and the specific AGC requirements for each;
3) The wide range of variability among Amateur operators as to their desires and interests
4) A higher level of technological achievement which opens up the possibility of such discussions as these because of the K3's clarity and reproducibility of signals, which in turn allows us to hear what has never been heard before.

The K3 is another step in the advancement of Ham Radio technology. It is not the pinnacle (or will not be there forever, anyway) of achievement, but it is among the best we know today. Tomorrow will be a different story. Meanwhile, let us communicate with what we have, while urging Aptos on to even higher goals.

Bill
W4ISH
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AD4C2009

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Barry N1EU

That is a real true,K3 has enough sensitivity,I have never turned on my preamp since day one and also I use the minimum RF gain needed to pull the station at a confortable volume.

AD4C

"For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3"

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Barry N1EU <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Barry N1EU <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 12:08 PM

If you routinely and mechanically turn RF Gain to maximum with PRE on,
thinking that's the way to get maximum sensitivity and work dx (it isn't),
your K3 is going to sound "noisy" with noise rushing up and down with AGC
action. The easiest solution to this dilemna is simply to turn down the
value of AGC THReshold in the config menu.

73,
Barry N1EU
--
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Bill W4ZV

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Bill W4ZV wrote

Ralph Parker wrote

I'm used to leaving the RF gain wide open on the MkV, leaving the audio
gain pretty much alone, and maybe switching between SLOW and FAST
occasionally. I don't seem to have any trouble hearing the weak ones under
the strong ones.
Now I have to fiddle with the RF gain (a small knob hidden amongst the
others) while running a pileup. Not enough hands (or enough brains).

If you set up your K3 as you described above, I guarantee you will have a noisy RX. Furthermore, you are wasting the dynamic range of the K3 (or your MkV for that matter). In a previous post I described how to set up the K3. Once set up correctly, you should seldom need to touch either RF or AF gain during an entire contest and can simply let the K3's excellent AGC and dynamic range do the work for you. IMHO good ergonomics doesn't mean having access to 24 knobs that need to be continually adjusted, it means not having to adjust them in the first place.

73, Bill W4ZV

Several have asked for more info about how to set up the K3 gain. The following is a simplified version of a comprehensive article by K3NA below:

http://wiki.contesting.com/index.php/Setting_receiver_gain_controls

Note that Eric's setup is for AGC Off, which is probably not a good idea for most casual users. I would start with AGC-F using the default AGC Menu settings. You can check the defaults for each CONFIG: AGC Menu by tapping the DISP button while in the appropriate CONFIG Menu (all AGC settings begin with CONFIG: AGC xxx, and remember that some are only accessible with CONFIG: TECH MD On).

1. Have available your desired antenna and a dummy load (both on a coax switch is ideal) for each band you want to set up (you'll at least need to do this for major segments like 80/160, 40-18, 15-10 and 6 separately (if you have the external preamp).

2. Set AF GAIN back to about 9 o'clock and RF GAIN to MAX (fully clockwise). This assumes you have the proper AF GAIN menu setting for your specific headphones (I use AF GAIN - LO for my 32 ohm headphones and still have tons of audio).

3. In the following order (first ATT ON, then ATT OFF, then PRE ON) alternately switch between your antenna and the dummy load. When you hear noise increase when switching to the antenna, use the lowest gain setting (i.e. ATT will likely be the correct setting on the noisy low bands and PRE will likely be correct for 10m). Remember that the K3 will remember these settings for each band. Once you have the correct setup on each band it will automatically recall that PRE/ATT setting when you return to that band.

4. Now adjust the RF GAIN knob counterclockwise until the antenna noise on the meter just stops flickering on the meter. This will be familiar to OTs since this is the way we set RF GAIN many years ago on analog radios.

5. Now adjust your AF GAIN knob for a comfortable listening level (mine is normally 9-10 o'clock which may vary depending on what type of headphones you have).

If you still don't like the amount of background noise compared to signal levels, adjust CONFIG: AGC THR to a lower setting than the default 5. This which will reduce the apparent noise level by moving the AGC onset point down and acting as sort of a noise squelch.

Regarding settings for speakers, I never use them since I'm normally listening for extremely weak signals on 160m or in contests and I don't want ANY extraneous noise between my ears and the signals. Perhaps someone who uses speakers can add comments.

I hope the above helps but please read K3NA's article for more comprehensive suggestions (remembering that his setup is for AGC Off).

My general rule for all gain settings (PRE/OFF/ATT, RF Gain knob, AF Gain knob, CONFIG: AF GAIN) is LESS IS BETTER (as long as you can hear signals). This is contrary to the thinking of some but following it will ensure that you get the ultimate dynamic range performance available from the K3.

73, Bill W4ZV

Bill W4ZV

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

Bill W4ZV wrote

4. Now adjust the RF GAIN knob counterclockwise until the antenna noise on the meter just stops flickering on the meter. This will be familiar to OTs since this is the way we set RF GAIN many years ago on analog radios.

Someone just questioned this step. I didn't mean the S-meter should read ZERO. I meant that you decrease the RF GAIN setting until the noise level on the S-meter stops flickering. For example if your noise is flickering S4-5 (as mine typically is on 160m), turn RF GAIN counterclockwise until you get a steady S5 with no flicker. The more you turn RF GAIN back, the higher the S-Meter will read.

73, Bill

Dan in Florida

W4ISH comments - Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by w4ish

Nice summary Bill. Will you please share the AGC setting that you most
typically use?
Thanks,
Dan - W4TQ
...............................................

Hello all!
I have read the many comments upon the noisy K3 receiver with interest. I,
too, have always thought the K3 somewhat noisy, but that is in comparison to
the other receivers I have. The best sound from a modern receiver to me has
been from the Ten Tec OMNI VII. When I place the RF gain on that radio to
about 25-35%, the noise is gone and the signals are still there, for a true
treat of listening without fatigue. When I first got the K3, I was
disappointed with the fatiguing hiss or artifacts (definitely higher
frequencies) which I experienced. Over the two years of having the K3,
though, I have seen gradual improvements while I have learned to adjust the
AGC parameters.

I added all the mods which had to do with audio, and each one brought a
little improvement. Now, somedays I am amazed at how quiet the K3 seems to
be, with the signals just popping out of the noise, while other days I still
wonder what I need to adjust. I also realize that my hearing, which has a
peak at approx. 4000-5000 Hz, is somewhat sensitive to higher pitched noise.

I do understand that those who find it tiring to listen to the K3 are
honestly reporting their experience. Isn't it wonderful that we now have a
radio which allows us to become aware of:
1) A spectrum analysis of our hearing loss/gain so we can make adjustments
to compensate for damage, age, etc.;
2) Our opportunity to learn the differences in atmospheric and operating
conditions, and the specific AGC requirements for each;
3) The wide range of variability among Amateur operators as to their desires
and interests
4) A higher level of technological achievement which opens up the
possibility of such discussions as these because of the K3's clarity and
reproducibility of signals, which in turn allows us to hear what has never
been heard before.

The K3 is another step in the advancement of Ham Radio technology. It is
not the pinnacle (or will not be there forever, anyway) of achievement, but
it is among the best we know today. Tomorrow will be a different story.
Meanwhile, let us communicate with what we have, while urging Aptos on to
even higher goals.

Bill
W4ISH
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n7ws

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

"The more you turn RF GAIN back, the higher the S-Meter will read."

Well, that's the way it should work, but I can assure you that with my K3 with the factory default RF Gain calibration, turning the control counterclockwise from max would cause the S-meter to increase at first, then *decrease* and then increase again as the control reached minimum gain.

That is why I've said repeatedly, NOT ALL K3s BEHAVE THE SAME WAY with respect to RF gain and AGC.

If you do not have a 50 uV signal source and you haven't run the latest variant of the RF Gain calibration routine, then you are at the mercy of the default settings.

This endless discussion of the "proper" way to adjust your RF gain, attenuator, preamp, et cetera is pointless when there is this variation.

Look at Jack Smith's analysis here:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_manual_rf_gain_control.htm

and pay particular attention to the chart of gain reduction v. control volts. To be sure, this is a simulation, but Jack is a smart guy and his lab measurements to back this up are second to none, plus I asked someone at Elecraft whether this was accurate and the reply was, "pretty much".

Now introduce into this FET characteristic variations that are---well---variable, such as Gm having a 2 to 1 tolerance, and you should be able see how easily one radio can be different from another.

Wes N7WS

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
>
> 4. Now adjust the RF GAIN knob counterclockwise until the antenna noise
> on the meter just stops flickering on the meter. This will be familiar to
> OTs since this is the way we set RF GAIN many years ago on analog radios.
>

Someone just questioned this step. I didn't mean the S-meter should read
ZERO. I meant that you decrease the RF GAIN setting until the noise level
on the S-meter stops flickering. For example if your noise is flickering
S4-5 (as mine typically is on 160m), turn RF GAIN counterclockwise until you
get a steady S5 with no flicker. The more you turn RF GAIN back, the higher
the S-Meter will read.

73, Bill
-l

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W4GRJ

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

Wes,

I am a brand new (3 days) K3 owner. My RF Gain control was acting exactly
like yours. I contacted Dale at Elecraft and he walked me thru a procedure
which completely fixed the problem. Suggest you give him a call.
Jack
W4GRJ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:10 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K3 receiver

"The more you turn RF GAIN back, the higher the S-Meter will read."

Well, that's the way it should work, but I can assure you that with my K3
with the factory default RF Gain calibration, turning the control
counterclockwise from max would cause the S-meter to increase at first, then
*decrease* and then increase again as the control reached minimum gain.

That is why I've said repeatedly, NOT ALL K3s BEHAVE THE SAME WAY with
respect to RF gain and AGC.

If you do not have a 50 uV signal source and you haven't run the latest
variant of the RF Gain calibration routine, then you are at the mercy of the
default settings.

This endless discussion of the "proper" way to adjust your RF gain,
attenuator, preamp, et cetera is pointless when there is this variation.

Look at Jack Smith's analysis here:

http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_manual_rf_gain_control.ht
m

and pay particular attention to the chart of gain reduction v. control
volts. To be sure, this is a simulation, but Jack is a smart guy and his
lab measurements to back this up are second to none, plus I asked someone at
Elecraft whether this was accurate and the reply was, "pretty much".

Now introduce into this FET characteristic variations that
are---well---variable, such as Gm having a 2 to 1 tolerance, and you should
be able see how easily one radio can be different from another.

Wes N7WS

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
>
> 4. Now adjust the RF GAIN knob counterclockwise until the antenna noise
> on the meter just stops flickering on the meter. This will be familiar to
> OTs since this is the way we set RF GAIN many years ago on analog radios.
>

Someone just questioned this step. I didn't mean the S-meter should read
ZERO. I meant that you decrease the RF GAIN setting until the noise level
on the S-meter stops flickering. For example if your noise is flickering
S4-5 (as mine typically is on 160m), turn RF GAIN counterclockwise until you
get a steady S5 with no flicker. The more you turn RF GAIN back, the higher
the S-Meter will read.

73, Bill
-l

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.427 / Virus Database: 270.14.111/2570 - Release Date: 12/18/09
07:35:00

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n7ws

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

In reply to this post by Ralph Parker

Bill has linked to and quoted Eric's paper (http://wiki.contesting.com/index.php/Setting_receiver_gain_controls) which quite frankly seems way too complicated to me. IMHO, a modern DSP, microprocessor-controlled receiver should figure all of this stuff out automatically and do it for me.

Make no mistake, as someone licensed for over 50 years and who has designed and built some receivers "back in the day", I've been through all of this "turn off the AGC and back off the RF gain stuff", before. That made sense when the RF gain control was a rheostat in the cathode of the RF stage and actually adjusted RF gain and radios didn't even have product detectors, but I don't think it makes sense today, except possibly is some rare situation.

If the receiver has a properly designed AGC system then there are only two variables that are potentially the operator's responsibility: 1) Preamp On/Off and 2)
Attenuator On/Off. With the smarts built into modern radios, why can't the radio do, for example upon band switching, a little routine of turning each of these on and off and measuring the resulting SNR and then setting them accordingly? If an S9+50 dB neighbor suddenly pops up, the DSP should know sooner than the operator that the ADC is being overloaded and act accordingly. If an antenna is changed or a noise source pops up, a simple macro executed by a key tap could run the routine automatically and be done with it.

We have DXpeditions operating on some chunk of coral that are running wireless networks between stations and uploading their logbooks in near real-time to the Internet via satellite yet their operators are still "riding the RF gain control". Something is wrong with this picture.

Wes N7WS

--- On Fri, 12/18/09, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bill W4ZV wrote:
> >
> >
> >

> > Ralph Parker wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm used to leaving the RF gain wide open on the
> MkV, leaving the audio
> >> gain pretty much alone, and maybe switching
> between SLOW and FAST
> >> occasionally. I don't seem to have any trouble
> hearing the weak ones
> >> under
> >> the strong ones.
> >> Now I have to fiddle with the RF gain (a small
> knob hidden amongst the
> >> others) while running a pileup. Not enough hands
> (or enough brains).
> >>
> >
> > If you set up your K3 as you described above, I
> guarantee you will have a
> > noisy RX. Furthermore, you are wasting the
> dynamic range of the K3 (or
> > your MkV for that matter). In a previous post I
> described how to set up
> > the K3. Once set up correctly, you should

seldom

> need to touch either RF
> > or AF gain during an entire contest and can simply let
> the K3's excellent
> > AGC and dynamic range do the work for you. IMHO
> good ergonomics doesn't
> > mean having access to 24 knobs that need to be
> continually adjusted, it
> > means not having to adjust them in the first place.
> >
> > 73, Bill W4ZV
> >
>
> Several have asked for more info about how to set up the K3
> gain. The
> following is a simplified version of a comprehensive
> article by K3NA below:
>
> http://wiki.contesting.com/index.php/Setting_receiver_gain_controls
>
> Note that Eric's setup is for AGC Off, which is probably
> not a good idea for
> most casual users. I would start with AGC-F using the
> default AGC Menu
> settings. You can

check the defaults for each CONFIG:

> AGC Menu by tapping
> the DISP button while in the appropriate CONFIG Menu (all
> AGC settings begin
> with CONFIG: AGC xxx, and remember that some are only
> accessible with
> CONFIG: TECH MD On).
>
> 1. Have available your desired antenna and a dummy
> load (both on a coax
> switch is ideal) for each band you want to set up (you'll
> at least need to
> do this for major segments like 80/160, 40-18, 15-10 and 6
> separately (if
> you have the external preamp).
>
> 2. Set AF GAIN back to about 9 o'clock and RF GAIN to
> MAX (fully
> clockwise). This assumes you have the proper AF GAIN
> menu setting for your
> specific headphones (I use AF GAIN - LO for my 32 ohm
> headphones and still
> have tons of audio).
>
> 3. In the following order (first ATT

ON, then ATT

> OFF, then PRE ON)
> alternately switch between your antenna and the dummy
> load. When you hear
> noise increase when switching to the antenna, use the
> lowest gain setting
> (i.e. ATT will likely be the correct setting on the
> noisy low bands and PRE
> will likely be correct for 10m). Remember that the K3
> will remember these
> settings for each band. Once you have the correct
> setup on each band it
> will automatically recall that PRE/ATT setting when you
> return to that band.
>
> 4. Now adjust the RF GAIN knob counterclockwise until
> the antenna noise on
> the meter just stops flickering on the meter. This
> will be familiar to OTs
> since this is the way we set RF GAIN many years ago on
> analog radios.
>
> 5. Now adjust your AF GAIN knob for a

comfortable

> listening level (mine is
> normally 9-10 o'clock which may vary depending on what type
> of headphones
> you have).
>
> If you still don't like the amount of background noise
> compared to signal
> levels, adjust CONFIG: AGC THR to a lower setting than the
> default 5. This
> which will reduce the apparent noise level by moving the
> AGC onset point
> down and acting as sort of a noise squelch.
>
> Regarding settings for speakers, I never use them since I'm
> normally
> listening for extremely weak signals on 160m or in contests
> and I don't want
> ANY extraneous noise between my ears and the signals.
> Perhaps someone who
> uses speakers can add comments.
>
> I hope the above helps but please read K3NA's article for
> more comprehensive
> suggestions (remembering that his setup

is for AGC Off).

>
> My general rule for all gain settings (PRE/OFF/ATT, RF Gain
> knob, AF Gain
> knob, CONFIG: AF GAIN) is LESS IS BETTER (as long as you
> can hear signals).
> This is contrary to the thinking of some but following it
> will ensure that
> you get the ultimate dynamic range performance available
> from the K3.
>
> 73, Bill W4ZV

DC1RS

Re: Noisy K3 receiver

Don't get me wrong guys, but these noise threads remind me more and more to the endless split discussion...

73 de Roland, DC1RS

K3/100 #1243, KFL3A-2.8K, KFL3A-2.1K, KFL3A-400, KRX3, KFL3A-2.8K, KFL3A-400, KAT3, KXV3A, LP-Pan

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