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Now that we know

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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

You are correct Vic. I should have defined Love? But then if you look in
the OED love takes a whole bunch of pages!

A loop of 10,000 honks may be a bit excessive however ;)
Kevin.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:43:44 -0700, Vic Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kevin Rock wrote:
>
>> Forth Love ? IF Honk :)
>
> Er, I think Forth Love = IF Honk
>
> The definition of ? is
>
> : ? @ . ;
>
> And of course, we need a simple TTY honk:
>
> : Honk 7 emit 10000 0 DO LOOP ;
>

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David A. Belsley

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Stephen W. Kercel

I understand, for safety reasons, the Farragut Amateur Radio
Transmitting Society was forbidden using spark equipment.

dave belsley, w1euy

On Apr 17, 2005, at 10:16 PM, Stephen W. Kercel wrote:

> Craig:
>
> Funny you should mention that. In Tennessee, between Knoxville and Oak
> Ridge there is a town called Farragut. Some years back, when I lived
> in Tennessee, a number of us were participants in an informal group
> that we called the Farragut Amateur Radio Transmitting Society.
>
> 73,
>
> Steve
> AA4AK
>
>
> At 08:13 PM 4/17/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>> > Its nice to know I'm not the only old fart on this list!
>>
>> Wake up, dude. It's ham radio: We're all old farts.
>>
>> Craig
>> NZ0R
>>
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Stephen W. Kercel

Re: Now that we know

A prudent precaution.

Steve
AA4AK

At 11:09 PM 4/17/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>I understand, for safety reasons, the Farragut Amateur Radio Transmitting
>Society was forbidden using spark equipment.
>
>dave belsley, w1euy
>

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Jessie Oberreuter

FORTH

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Kevin Rock wrote:

> You are correct Vic. I should have defined Love? But then if you look in
> the OED love takes a whole bunch of pages!
>
> A loop of 10,000 honks may be a bit excessive however ;)
> Kevin.

That was a delay loop! Honk only emits one beep :). You gotta love
a language in which a statement like:

>> The definition of ? is
>> : ? @ . ;

makes complete sense :). Actually, all of you RPN fanatics would love
FORTH, as it is essentially RPN based. Add some labels and control
structures, and whalla! You have a programming language!

2 3 6 * + .

Does just what you expect: 2, 3, and 6 get pushed on the stack, *
multiples 3 and 6 and replaces them with 18, and + adds 2 and 18 and
replaces them with 20. The period (.) writes the result to the terminal
and removes it from the stack. If you do something often, you can add a
new operation to the system with a colon definition:

: CUBE DUP DUP * * ;

and now you can write:

3 CUBE .

and it will pring 27! Every modern RPN calculator should come with a
built in FORTH :).

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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Good grief guys, Eric is going to go ape when he sees us writing code on
his Reflector now you want it to be perfect? It was supposed to be a
bumper sticker not an app ;)

: Honk 7 EMIT ;
: Cheers Forth Love? IF 10 0 DO Honk LOOP THEN ;

Funny thing about Forth is it is very close to assembly language in speed
but writes like a high level language. Wonderful for bit banging and
writing AI code in the same robot. I used it for a number of robotic
projects in grad school. The very first OO language too. Methods and
data were in the same bag way back in 1980 when I started learning it.
Great for embedded stuff too. Fast prototyping and great results. You
can actually use the prototype unlike a certain Visual language I've used.
Kevin.

Forgive us Eric but we are zealots ;)
KJR

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:09:47 -0700, Vic Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Actually Kevin was closer to correct than I was...he seems to have
> intended to write Love? instead of Love ?. My verson said "if the words
> Forth and Love have the same address" which is of course not what's
> intended. Anyway. neither of us defined 'Love'!
>
>
> I don't think you could do that without changing it into something else
> altogether. The whole thing about Forth is that everything is just a
> bit pattern.
>
> Right, it's required. It's been about 20 years since I last wrote a
> Forth program!
>

It has not been that long for me thankfully. Only a year or so.
KJR

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Chris-488

Re: FORTH

In reply to this post by Jessie Oberreuter

Are there any decent modern RPN calcs? I had a much loved HP32SII but I
lost it when I moved house and have not been able to find a decent
replacement. I have soft RPN calc on my palm, but I like proper buttons
to push.

Chris - VP8BKF

>
>
> and it will pring 27! Every modern RPN calculator should come with a
> built in FORTH :).
>
>

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Mark J. Schreiner

Re: Re: FORTH

In reply to this post by Jessie Oberreuter

I'm holding on to my HP15C which I bought in college in 1987, still have the receipt. My boss here was looking for a good RPN calculator and figured he might find that one on eBay cheap. WRONG! Turns out that very good examples of it, complete with manual and case are about $300 to $400. Even one with a broken LCD display was still over $100, more than I paid for it new. Not sure when (or why) HP discontinued it. They still make the financial version (HP12C) which is the same form factor, just different button assignments.

I also have an HP48G+ which is still RPN. Not sure if it is still made or not. I got the '48 about 5 years ago. Some of the '48s have expandable memory slots, however, mine has 128k fixed RAM. I've seen where people have programmed it to use its IR port as a remote control!

Hmm, wonder if the HP48 can be used to control the K2?

Mark, NK8Q

>From: Chris <[hidden email]>
>Date: Mon Apr 18 07:54:35 CDT 2005
>To: Jessie Oberreuter <[hidden email]>
>Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>, Kevin Rock <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FORTH

>Are there any decent modern RPN calcs? I had a much loved HP32SII but I
>lost it when I moved house and have not been able to find a decent
>replacement. I have soft RPN calc on my palm, but I like proper buttons
>to push.
>
>Chris - VP8BKF
>
>>
>>
>> and it will pring 27! Every modern RPN calculator should come with a
>> built in FORTH :).
>>
>>
>
>
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Margaret Leber

Re: FORTH

In reply to this post by Chris-488

Chris wrote:
> Are there any decent modern RPN calcs?...I have soft RPN calc on my palm...

Don't forget Quartus ( http://www.quartus.net ), a complete FORTH
implementation for Palm.

By the way, the on-board computer on the AMSAT/Oscar-40 amateur radio
satellite (may it rest in peace) ran IPS, a multithreaded version of
FORTH that used German keywords.

73 de Maggie K3XS, who will be looking closely at her K2's T6 when she
gets home from flying today

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----/(, /| /| http://voicenet.com/~maggie SCWCD/ is to preserve order/
---/ / | / | _ _ _ ` _ AOPA 925383/ amid change and to /
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Don Brown-4

Re: Re: FORTH

In reply to this post by Mark J. Schreiner

Hi

I have and use regularly a HP-25 that is about 30 years old. The NiCad
batteries failed many years ago so I mounted a 2.5 volt regulator made with
a LM117 inside the battery box and power it with a wall wart. Once you learn
RPN nothing else seems as easy. I also have a HP-28C and it programs with a
sub-set of FORTH. If HP has dropped all of the RPN calculators from the
line, one of the several aps for the palm may be the only place you can find
it. I also have around here somewhere a little single board computer that is
based on a 6809 with FORTH built in in firmware

Don Brown
KD5NDB

PS I have a Helix computer out in the garage now. It was the final
generation of the SWTPC 6809 SS 50 buss computer. It probably still works
although I have not tried to boot it in 10 years. It's OS was Flex, a much
better design than CP/M in my opinion. I still make my living writing 6808
assembly language for small controllers.

Subject: Re: Re: [Elecraft] FORTH

> I'm holding on to my HP15C which I bought in college in 1987, still have
> the receipt. My boss here was looking for a good RPN calculator and
> figured he might find that one on eBay cheap. WRONG! Turns out that very
> good examples of it, complete with manual and case are about $300 to $400.
> Even one with a broken LCD display was still over $100, more than I paid
> for it new. Not sure when (or why) HP discontinued it. They still make
> the financial version (HP12C) which is the same form factor, just
> different button assignments.
>
> I also have an HP48G+ which is still RPN. Not sure if it is still made or
> not. I got the '48 about 5 years ago. Some of the '48s have expandable
> memory slots, however, mine has 128k fixed RAM. I've seen where people
> have programmed it to use its IR port as a remote control!
>
> Hmm, wonder if the HP48 can be used to control the K2?
>
> Mark, NK8Q
>
>
> >From: Chris <[hidden email]>
> >Date: Mon Apr 18 07:54:35 CDT 2005
> >To: Jessie Oberreuter <[hidden email]>
> >Cc: Elecraft <[hidden email]>, Kevin Rock
> ><[hidden email]>
> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FORTH
>
> >Are there any decent modern RPN calcs? I had a much loved HP32SII but I
> >lost it when I moved house and have not been able to find a decent
> >replacement. I have soft RPN calc on my palm, but I like proper buttons
> >to push.
> >
> >Chris - VP8BKF
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> and it will pring 27! Every modern RPN calculator should come with a
> >> built in FORTH :).
> >>
> >>
> >

Mike Markowski

Re: HP calculators

In reply to this post by Mark J. Schreiner

HP now makes the HP33s (~$45), which is a slightly enhanced 32sii & does
RPN or algebraic. Looks like marketing was at work, though, since they
put the buttons in a strange V pattern. I've also read that the decimal
point is tough to see. And for matrices, differential eqns, etc., you
can now upgrade to a 49g+. Great functionality, but I think HP has lost
a bit in the quality department. The newer calcs just don't have that
solid feel of the older brown ones. (But I still buy them!)

Mike AB3AP

[hidden email] wrote on 04/18/05 09:50 ET:
> I'm holding on to my HP15C which I bought in college in 1987, still
> have the receipt. My boss here was looking for a good RPN calculator
> and figured he might find that one on eBay cheap. [...]
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Bob Nielsen

Re: HP calculators

I still regularly use my HP-11 and have a HP-45 around somewhere,
although if I found it I doubt that I could still buy a battery.

Bob, N7XY

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Douglas Westover

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

Jeeez, all you guys are just kids! I cut my teeth on an IBM 650 as a
Stanford undergrad. OS??? Listen, we entered the boot program
through the front panel "switch register". The 650 occupied three
large cabinets in a heavily a/c'd room (it was GREAT in the summer!).
2000 10 digit "words", plus sign, of drum memory with an incredible
96 ms add time! Languages? Well there was SOAP, IT and the
state-of-the-art FORTRANSIT, which, of course was built on top
of IT....a very crude early attempt at FORTRAN! SOAP was an
assembler that placed instructions on the drum in an optimum
fashion to overcome the drum latency.

>From the 650 Stanford "upgraded" to a Buroughs 220 which had
10k decimal words of CORE memory! Also tape drives! BALGOL
(Burough's dialect of ALGOL) was the language of choice though
assembler was still heavily used for those of us who needed real
efficiency. Dick Hamming was at Stanford at this time and chatting
with him while waiting for output taught me more math and numerical
techniques than I had ever learned in the classroom.

We also had a (one of 3 built) IBM 797 which was essentially a 650
with core memory and was plug board programmed with a 402 printer
plug board!

Of course we went through the 7090, B5000 and 360 series. At that point
I decided that my interest in computing/radio/electronics got me into
real-time computing with HP-2100 series mini computers. I worked
for the Stanford Radio Science Lab (and later SRI Remote Measurements
Lab) developing control , data acq and processing/display systems
for SRI's experimental/test bed OTH radar using single board computers
from Ziatech.

Man was that ever off topic!

I'll mention something "on topic". I saw a new Elecraft thing at the
DX Convention in Visalia. Wow!! You QRO guys, start saving your
pennies!

73,
Doug
W6JD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Rock" <[hidden email]>
To: "Robert McGwier" <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Mail"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Now that we know

> I never was a Vaxen. I've worked with dozens of operating systems over
> the years but not that one. I live in a cloistered world mostly writing
> my own software to go with the wire wrapped CPU and memory card kluge
> works I have as boxes :) One day I may try VMS and see what I've been
> missing. A break from the big three OSes is in order. I find Lin/Mac/Win
> constricting. There were other much better OSes in the early days of mini
> and micro computers.
>
> Kevin. KD5ONS
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:49:52 +0000, Robert McGwier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Now that we know I am an ancient computer person, I found a few links:
> >
> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=email+exploder&btnG=Google+Search
> >
> > Bob
> > N4HY
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
>
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n6wg

RE: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

"Today, we are most of us computer appliance operators, who learn
application programs, but know little about the hardware and firmware
beneath the application."

Well, there are folks who build wonderful pianos. There are very talented
piano tuners.
And then there are very fine piano players.

I think of myself as a piano player :-)
73, Bob N6WG

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Bud Rogers

Re: Now that we know

On Monday 18 April 2005 17:45, Robert Tellefsen wrote:
> Well, there are folks who build wonderful pianos. There are very
> talented piano tuners.
> And then there are very fine piano players.
>
> I think of myself as a piano player :-)
> 73, Bob N6WG

Never thought of it that way. I like your thinking, Bob.

--
Bud Rogers <[hidden email]>
KD5SZ EM05vb K2 #4115
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Charles Bland

Re: Now that we know

I've know Bob since he wasn't retarded....errr...retired.....

He's always had the propensity to wax eloquent......

Chuck - n6dbt

Note Bud Rogers's stunning brilliance and Chuck's apt reply (gack!)

From: Bud Rogers <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Now that we know
Date sent: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:04:13 -0500

> On Monday 18 April 2005 17:45, Robert Tellefsen wrote:
> > Well, there are folks who build wonderful pianos. There are very
> > talented piano tuners.
> > And then there are very fine piano players.
> >
> > I think of myself as a piano player :-)
> > 73, Bob N6WG
>
> Never thought of it that way. I like your thinking, Bob.
>
> --
> Bud Rogers <[hidden email]>
> KD5SZ EM05vb K2 #4115
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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by n6wg

I feel that way about my car. I have no desire to get under the hood let
alone under the chassis. Motorcycles yes, four wheeled vehicles no.
Computers are a different matter. I enjoy building, programming, and
using my own or other's software to get them to perform.

Thus I can build the piano, tune the piano, compose for the piano, and
play the piano. Guess that makes me an all around expert on the darn
piano ;)

Now to get propagation to improve on 20 meters. The net was short and
sweet with three QNI.
73,
Kevin. KD5oNS

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:45:55 -0700, Robert Tellefsen <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> "Today, we are most of us computer appliance operators, who learn
> application programs, but know little about the hardware and firmware
> beneath the application."
>
> Well, there are folks who build wonderful pianos. There are very
> talented
> piano tuners.
> And then there are very fine piano players.
>
> I think of myself as a piano player :-)
> 73, Bob N6WG

Lou Roux-2

Re: Now that we know

Did you know you can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish....

I couldn't help it. :-[

Lou - W6UR
K2/100 #3578

Kevin Rock wrote:

> I feel that way about my car. I have no desire to get under the hood
> let alone under the chassis. Motorcycles yes, four wheeled vehicles
> no. Computers are a different matter. I enjoy building, programming,
> and using my own or other's software to get them to perform.
>
> Thus I can build the piano, tune the piano, compose for the piano, and
> play the piano. Guess that makes me an all around expert on the darn
> piano ;)
>
> Now to get propagation to improve on 20 meters. The net was short and
> sweet with three QNI.
> 73,
> Kevin. KD5oNS
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:45:55 -0700, Robert Tellefsen
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> "Today, we are most of us computer appliance operators, who learn
>> application programs, but know little about the hardware and firmware
>> beneath the application."
>>
>> Well, there are folks who build wonderful pianos. There are very
>> talented
>> piano tuners.
>> And then there are very fine piano players.
>>
>> I think of myself as a piano player :-)
>> 73, Bob N6WG
>
>
>

Charlie Hicks

RE: Now that we know

As we continue off topic...

I can carry a briefcase but I can't carry a tune...

> Did you know you can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish....

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Now that we know (END of thread)

Administrator

In reply to this post by n6wg

I just got back in town from a Long Weekend at the Visalia DX convention. Looks
like we've had a lot of emails on the list this weekend! (It always seems to
happen when I'm off line..)

In any case, lets end this non-K1/K2/T1 etc OT thread for now to relieve the
email pressure on others ;-)

Please remember before posting lots of off topic comments to the list that we
have close to 1900 subscribers now, so the number of daily emails can explode in
volume when everyone hits the return key a little too quickly or frequently :-)

Also, please edit all copied text from previous posts down to a couple of
sentences when replying to postings. This makes the list archives and daily
digest much easier to read.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
List moderator
----------------
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EricJ-2

RE: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Douglas Westover

Jeeez, Doug, you're just a kid! I was a field engineer installing huge
vacuum tube analog computers (EAI 231R among others) all over the East Coast
and southern Canada. Customers included NASA, Pratt & Whitney, Perkin-Elmer
and just every Ivy League and Bush League university in that region.
Digital stuff was sort of interesting in a primitive way. We interfaced them
to analog computers to do the mundane number-crunching and flow control
chores while a couple of analog computers accomplished the heavy lifting. I
notice there is renewed interest in analog computing. Even with all the
gigawhiz CPU's out there, it is hard to beat them for differential
equations. They are also more intuitive to program for an engineer.

BTW, dug up a 650 simulator you might try. I haven't played with it yet, but
it might be interesting.

http://infinitefish.com/650/

Eric
KE6US

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Westover
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:34 AM
To: Robert McGwier; Elecraft Mail; Kevin Rock
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Now that we know

Jeeez, all you guys are just kids! I cut my teeth on an IBM 650 as a
Stanford undergrad. OS??? Listen, we entered the boot program through the
front panel "switch register". The 650 occupied three large cabinets in a
heavily a/c'd room (it was GREAT in the summer!).
2000 10 digit "words", plus sign, of drum memory with an incredible
96 ms add time! Languages? Well there was SOAP, IT and the state-of-the-art
FORTRANSIT, which, of course was built on top of IT....a very crude early
attempt at FORTRAN! SOAP was an assembler that placed instructions on the
drum in an optimum fashion to overcome the drum latency.

>From the 650 Stanford "upgraded" to a Buroughs 220 which had
10k decimal words of CORE memory! Also tape drives! BALGOL (Burough's
dialect of ALGOL) was the language of choice though assembler was still
heavily used for those of us who needed real efficiency. Dick Hamming was at
Stanford at this time and chatting with him while waiting for output taught
me more math and numerical techniques than I had ever learned in the
classroom.

We also had a (one of 3 built) IBM 797 which was essentially a 650 with core
memory and was plug board programmed with a 402 printer plug board!

Of course we went through the 7090, B5000 and 360 series. At that point I
decided that my interest in computing/radio/electronics got me into
real-time computing with HP-2100 series mini computers. I worked for the
Stanford Radio Science Lab (and later SRI Remote Measurements
Lab) developing control , data acq and processing/display systems for SRI's
experimental/test bed OTH radar using single board computers from Ziatech.

Man was that ever off topic!

I'll mention something "on topic". I saw a new Elecraft thing at the DX
Convention in Visalia. Wow!! You QRO guys, start saving your pennies!

73,
Doug
W6JD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Rock" <[hidden email]>
To: "Robert McGwier" <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Mail"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Now that we know

> I never was a Vaxen. I've worked with dozens of operating systems
> over the years but not that one. I live in a cloistered world mostly
> writing my own software to go with the wire wrapped CPU and memory
> card kluge works I have as boxes :) One day I may try VMS and see
> what I've been missing. A break from the big three OSes is in order.
> I find Lin/Mac/Win constricting. There were other much better OSes in
> the early days of mini and micro computers.
>
> Kevin. KD5ONS
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:49:52 +0000, Robert McGwier
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Now that we know I am an ancient computer person, I found a few links:
> >
> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=email+exploder&btnG=Google+Sear
> > ch
> >
> > Bob
> > N4HY
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005
>
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