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OCF antennas

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123

David Gilbert

Re: OCF antennas

That's not the point. There are those who enjoy ham radio for what they
learn from it, and from optimizing their stations. There are others who
simply enjoy operating and don't really care much what is behind it.
Either are perfectly valid (this is a hobby, after all), but you're the
one who seems to think that the latter has some level of esteem that the
former does not. It doesn't. Some people like to build high
performance cars but never drive them ... others couldn't care less
what's under the hood and just want to race. Nobody is telling you to
put your mic down and rigorously analyze your antennas ... don't tell
the rest of us to quit trying to learn from each other on this forum so
we can spend more time telling somebody what our weather is like.

Dave AB7E

On 3/10/2012 6:10 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:

> I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.
>
> Or I can work DX and ragchew.
>
> Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of
> the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."
>
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:
>
>>
>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
>> understand what they're doing. Apparently others don't seem to care.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>>
>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>>
>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>>> stories.)
>>>
>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>>
>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the
>>> arguing,
>>> I mean, discussion.
>>>
>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if
>>> you're
>>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>>

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Igor Sokolov-2

Re: Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

In reply to this post by Hisashi T Fujinaka

It is well known that contesters prefer the best performing radios for
contests because contest environment is the most demanding as far as RX/TX
specs are concerned.
World Radio Team Championship in Moscow in 2010 was the assembly of the best
contesters of the world.
Now ask yourself why out of 104 rigs used in this competition 53 were made
by Elecraft.
Why practically any DXpedition nowadays has at least one K3 as their main
radio?
On the other hand if you need transceiver for local ragchew, any make or
model will do.

73, Igor UA9CDC

P.S. Look for me from Senegal as 6V7Z in Russian DX contest and WPX SSB
contest. We will use K3 with subRX and Expert 1K-FA amp from there between
the 16th and 27th of March.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hisashi T Fujinaka" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:09 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

> I'm fantasizing about a new radio and I do know how much I like my K2. A
> K3 would be the obvious progression. But a friend told me how much he
> liked the Icom 7600 and wow are there some nice bells and whistles on
> it.
>
> I want to know tech specs. I trust that I could email Elecraft and get
> much better support than any other big rig manufacturer, but have you
> seen how pretty the Icom is? :) My biggest complaint about the Elecraft
> is the UI and I think the Icom might have a better one (though I only
> stared and drooled for a minute or so).
>
> --
> Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
> BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OCF antennas-Now way off Topic

In reply to this post by Pete Michaelis - N8TR

Yes, I was a freshman in 1959 and while I never met Don Knuth, I heard
plenty of stories about him. He was given free reign of the new
computer center.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/11/2012 1:52 AM, Pete Michaelis - N8TR wrote:

> Don,
>
> When I started work at NASA's Lewis Research Center in the early 60's
> we often went to seminars at Case. Local legend had it that in one of
> Dr Green's classes he presented a research problem that he himself
> was working on and told the class that anyone solving it would be
> awarded a master's degree along with his BS. Donald E Knuth
> (author of the famous "The Art of Computer Programming" series of books)
> was in the class and solved the problem ( and got his BS& MS in 1960).
> Did that happen while you were there? I know that this is way off topic but I
> have always been curious if that actually occurred.
>
> 73 Pete - N8TR
>
> At 08:40 PM 3/10/2012, Don Wilhelm wrote:

KD8NNU

Re: Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

In reply to this post by Hisashi T Fujinaka

I also drooled at the 7600 as I am a 7000 user. But the more I learned
the more I realized that I could get a better bse radio in the K3 and
then add to it as necessary. You can build a K3 to have all the bells
and whistles of a 7800 if you want plus get the K3 RX.

But remember on other thing, you can not update an Icom product in the
future. I have added some stuff to my K3 already from my initial
purchase and am considering more options as I go forward.

I have the ability with my K3 to hear more stations than I can work.
The old theory if I can hear them I can work them may not apply with a
K3 as the the other guy may not be able to hear you because the RX of
the K3 is that good. The RX of the K3 IS JUST AMAZING!!!!

In the DX contest a few weekends ago, there were multiple hams close to
me running power and with the filters in the K3 I did not know they were
there until we both were trying to work the same DX.

Take your time and make your choices, all I know is I am very satisified
with the choice I have made.

Its kinda fun to have a Radio that you can hear stations 10k miles away
and have a chance to work them that my 7000 using the same antennas wont
even hear.

~73
Don
KD8NNU

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 3:09 AM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:

> I'm fantasizing about a new radio and I do know how much I like my K2.
> A
> K3 would be the obvious progression. But a friend told me how much he
> liked the Icom 7600 and wow are there some nice bells and whistles on
> it.
>
> I want to know tech specs. I trust that I could email Elecraft and get
> much better support than any other big rig manufacturer, but have you
> seen how pretty the Icom is? :) My biggest complaint about the
> Elecraft
> is the UI and I think the Icom might have a better one (though I only
> stared and drooled for a minute or so).
>
> --
> Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
> BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 =
> latte
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

N5GE

Re: OCF antennas

In reply to this post by hf4me

For those of you who enjoy discussing antennae there is a reflector to antennae
here: [hidden email].

This reflector needs more traffic just like the antenna traffic on this net
during the last week. Give it a try.

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 23:17:06 -0600, "Jim Miller KG0KP"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Ian, I am with you on this. jmho that starting with whatever you can put up
>and for whatever reason that is all you can do at the time. If a new person
>doesn't get on the air "fast" he will soon lose interest. He is interested
>NOW, get him up and running and not next month or even next week if
>possible, NOW.
>
[snip]

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Gary Ferdinand

Re: OCF antennas

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

To round off this part of the discussion I'll add that what Guy relates in
terms of wet window line is to some extent also true when using insulated
wire (rather than window line) with spacers approximately every 18 inches.
I'm using #14 THNN in my feeders with Ladder Snap spacers and the "wet
settings" on the tuner, while not drastically different, are different
enough to warrant some retuning on some bands.

73, Gary W2CS

>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger K2AV
>Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:49 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas
>
>I have a 425 foot run of "window line", specifically Wireman #554 down
>to my 160 antenna base. The "detuning" that is referred to is really a
>change in the dielectric: from PE to PE+water. That changes the loss
>(change =
>.5 dB at 1.830), but more particularly the velocity factor, which
>changes the electrical length and MOVES nodes and nulls. Here are the
>particulars from the line loss calculator in VK1OD's excellent
>collection of calculators at http://vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php .
>
>Transmission Line Wireman 554
>Code W554
>Data source Wireman / N7WS
>Frequency 1.830 MHz
>Length 425.000 ft
>Results
>Zo 360.01-j1.74 Ω
>Velocity Factor, VF -2 0.928, 1.161
>Length 306.76 °, 0.852 λ, 129.540 m
>Line Loss (matched) 0.251 dB
>
>
>Transmission Line Wireman 554 wet
>Code W554w
>Data source N7WS
>Frequency 1.830 MHz
>Length 425.000 ft
>Results
>Zo 344.94+j3.02 Ω
>Velocity Factor, VF -2 0.887, 1.271
>Length 320.94 °, 0.892 λ, 129.540 m
>Line Loss (matched) 0.780 dB
>
>73, Guy.
>
>
>On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 12:16 AM, Jim Brown
><[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2012 9:05 PM, Gary Ferdinand wrote:
>> > The OWL does not suffer from the dreaded detuning in the rain nearly
>> > to
>> the extent of ladder line.
>>
>> Right. And while there is some change in the impedance, the primary
>> effect is dielectric loss due to moisture on the "solid" portions of
>> the window "frame."
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>
>______________________________________________________________
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Tony Estep

Re: OCF antennas-Now way off Topic

In reply to this post by Pete Michaelis - N8TR

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 12:52 AM, Pete Michaelis - N8TR
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...legend had it that in one of
> Dr Green's classes he presented a research problem that he himself
> was working on and told the class that anyone solving it would be
> awarded a master's degree...
==============
for a similar story about one of the most important innovations in all
of computer science, Google on "Huffman coding history."

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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Hisashi T Fujinaka

Re: OCF antennas

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

What I object to is the tone of your reply. I certainly said if you want
to argue this to death, you can because that's an aspect of our hobby.

You're saying I'm wrong, and I'm just trying to advocate for the guy who
wants to get on the air FIRST, with something GOOD ENOUGH, and tinker
LATER. Also, remember there are lot of variables that aren't taken into
account and even if your antenna is better than mine, I might get out
better because of my location. You can't know everything.

So, geez, I've been trying to tone down my replies to you because you
sound like you're mad all the time and that annoys me as well. I'm just
advocating for more people to get on the air so I can work them.

On Sun, 11 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:

> That's not the point. There are those who enjoy ham radio for what they
> learn from it, and from optimizing their stations. There are others who
> simply enjoy operating and don't really care much what is behind it.
> Either are perfectly valid (this is a hobby, after all), but you're the
> one who seems to think that the latter has some level of esteem that the
> former does not. It doesn't. Some people like to build high
> performance cars but never drive them ... others couldn't care less
> what's under the hood and just want to race. Nobody is telling you to
> put your mic down and rigorously analyze your antennas ... don't tell
> the rest of us to quit trying to learn from each other on this forum so
> we can spend more time telling somebody what our weather is like.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
>
> On 3/10/2012 6:10 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>> I went to MIT. I can analyze the crap out of this if I feel like it.
>>
>> Or I can work DX and ragchew.
>>
>> Like I said, you use the hobby for what you want and I'm a proponent of
>> the proverb that says, "Perfect is the enemy of the good."
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
>>> understand what they're doing. Apparently others don't seem to care.
>>>
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>>>
>>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>>>
>>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>>>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>>>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>>>> stories.)
>>>>
>>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>>>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>>>
>>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the
>>>> arguing,
>>>> I mean, discussion.
>>>>
>>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if
>>>> you're
>>>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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David Gilbert

Re: OCF antennas

In reply to this post by hf4me

Jim ... read your last paragraph. That's exactly what several of us
were doing here when Hisashi wrote his first post on the topic.

Dave AB7E

On 3/10/2012 10:17 PM, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:

> Ian, I am with you on this. jmho that starting with whatever you can put up
> and for whatever reason that is all you can do at the time. If a new person
> doesn't get on the air "fast" he will soon lose interest. He is interested
> NOW, get him up and running and not next month or even next week if
> possible, NOW.
>
> I have also seen people with the location and resources who were excited and
> able to build an optimal station as their first station and do it all at
> once. Wrong thing to do. He built it, could talk anywhere and mostly
> anytime and within a year he was totally bored with it and never used it
> again and not long after sold it all.
>
> Coming up through "all the pains" of not having it all at once and learning
> what is better and why, trying to determine what will fit within the
> restrictions they are saddled with and taking the next step, making that
> better and then moving on is a great way to grow in knowledge and experience
> in building antennas. Another way to gain experience is to assist in the
> antenna parties in the area.
>
> In the beginning, waiting is wrong. Just DO it, operate, and ask questions,
> read, participate, join a club, BE where other hams are, LISTEN, learn,
> grow, modify, add, ask for help, try other antennas.
>
> as I said, jmho,
> 73, de Jim KG0KP
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Kahn - Ham"<[hidden email]>
> To:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OCF antennas
>
>
>> Dave, I wish to disagree with you on this point. Yes, this is a
>> knowledge-based hobby. However, I learned enough to pass my exams and
>> got a wire in the trees so I could get on the air. I've spent my time
>> since then learning. You have the rest of your life to study and
>> learn. We have no clue how long this sunspot cycle and good propagation
>> conditions will last.
>>
>> Just my two cents' worth. I'll shut up now.
>>
>> --Ian
>>
>> Ian Kahn, KM4IK
>> Roswell, GA
>> [hidden email]
>> K3 #281, P3 #688
>>
>>
>> On 3/10/2012 2:18 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>> Ham radio being a knowledge-based hobby, some people prefer to
>>> understand what they're doing. Apparently others don't seem to care.
>>>
>>> Dave AB7E
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/9/2012 9:49 PM, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
>>>> So let me say one thing I know about antennas:
>>>>
>>>> PUT SOMETHING UP AND GET ON THE AIR.
>>>>
>>>> You can get perfect up, and you can get OK up. You an argue about what
>>>> works better and what works worse. But when the bands are open, you
>>>> might be able to work DX with a cantenna under your desk. (I've heard
>>>> stories.)
>>>>
>>>> I used an untuned dipole with a LDG tuner to work my first (and only)
>>>> DXCC back in the last sunspot cycle.
>>>>
>>>> So what I'm saying is put something up FIRST and then start the arguing,
>>>> I mean, discussion.
>>>>
>>>> (But then again there are all sorts of aspects to the hobby and if
>>>> you're
>>>> here to argue you can if you want.)
>>>>
>>> ____

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OCF antennas [END of thread]

Administrator

Guys,

Must be a slow DX day..

Looks like we have beaten another topic into submission. When folks start getting grumpy, or the thread gets an over abundance of postings (both true here) its time to let it rest.

Lot's of good info in this one, but let's remember that this -is- a hobby. We are all here to share our enjoyment of it with each other. It is -never- acceptable to make personal snipes at other postings made here.

73,
Eric
List Modulator
www.elecraft.com
_..._

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Jim Low man

Re: Can anyone give me pointers to Sherwood reports?

In reply to this post by Igor Sokolov-2

The Zuni Loop QRP Field Day group has been an Elecraft-based effort for
some time.
One year, as I recall, it was exclusively K2s in operation.
Last summer, someone even brought his K3 up there.
The group consistently places within the top few percent in the QRP
category nationwide.

There is also something to be said for Elecraft's generosity in loaning
equipment to contest teams.
However, the same can be said for Yaesu and DXpeditions.
Bottom line: if it didn't work, it would be a one-time effort, which is
not the case.

72/73 de Jim - AD6CW
Owner of K1 and K2, with a KX3 on order (and giving serious thought to a K3)

On 3/11/2012 4:16 AM, Igor Sokolov wrote:

> It is well known that contesters prefer the best performing radios for
> contests because contest environment is the most demanding as far as RX/TX
> specs are concerned.
> World Radio Team Championship in Moscow in 2010 was the assembly of the best
> contesters of the world.
> Now ask yourself why out of 104 rigs used in this competition 53 were made
> by Elecraft.
> Why practically any DXpedition nowadays has at least one K3 as their main
> radio?
> On the other hand if you need transceiver for local ragchew, any make or
> model will do.
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>
> P.S. Look for me from Senegal as 6V7Z in Russian DX contest and WPX SSB
> contest. We will use K3 with subRX and Expert 1K-FA amp from there between
> the 16th and 27th of March.
>

Guy, K2AV

Re: OCF antennas

In reply to this post by Gary Ferdinand

2012/3/11 Gary Ferdinand <[hidden email]>

> To round off this part of the discussion I'll add that what Guy relates in
> terms of wet window line is to some extent also true when using insulated
> wire (rather than window line) with spacers approximately every 18 inches.
> I'm using #14 THNN in my feeders with Ladder Snap spacers and the "wet
> settings" on the tuner, while not drastically different, are different
> enough to warrant some retuning on some bands.
>
> 73, Gary W2CS

Quite true. Enough so that using that using 14 or 12 THHN for a folded
counterpoise experiences serious detuning in the rain, because it gets
"hanging" drops all over it due to surface tension. For that and other
reasons, we tell people to use bare wire only in an FCP. The FCP seems
more sensitive than THHN and spreaders to the drops.

73, Guy.
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Guy, K2AV

Re: OCF antennas [END of thread]

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Guys,
>
> Must be a slow DX day...
>

That, actually is really true, with all the solar doings of the last week
or so. Really blotto propagation on average. Kind of like the full moon.
Folks start getting strange, DX withdrawal symptoms. :>)

73, Guy
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