OT: Inverter type generators used for FD?

[Mike Maloney]

 Curious if anyone used 2000W inverter type generator for portable FD operation?  What brand machine and what experience with RF noise encountered?Did anyone use Champion or Predator brand inverter generators?    Reply direct is fine.Mike  AC5P 
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Wed,6/28/2017 9:42 AM, Mike Maloney wrote:
>   Curious if anyone used 2000W inverter type generator for portable FD operation?  What brand machine and what experience with RF noise encountered?Did anyone use Champion or Predator brand inverter generators?

For many years, we've used the Honda 2000i generators for FD, 7QP, and
CQP expeditions. A single 2000i will run a couple of 100W stations with
station accessories in Economode. We also run a K3/P3/KPA500/KAT500
station on a single 2000i in Economode. They are very reliable, but they
do make some RF noise that you'll hear if the generator is close to
antennas.  A serious common mode choke right at the generator solves
that problem.  The link below includes a photo of one that we use.

http://nccc.cc/pdf/CQP-RFI2013-2.pdf

Our club did a couple of group purchases of these generators several
years ago and got a very good price. Don't remember who the vendor was.
There's a vendor that advertises in QST.

73, Jim K9YC




>     Reply direct is fine.

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[Ken Chandler]

FWIW
In UK, Honda 2k here, used for FD, iota, etc, etc, NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER.


Ken.. G0ORH

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> On 28 Jun 2017, at 17:42, Mike Maloney <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Curious if anyone used 2000W inverter type generator for portable FD operation?  What brand machine and what experience with RF noise encountered?Did anyone use Champion or Predator brand inverter generators?    Reply direct is fine.Mike  AC5P  
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[Glenn Petri]

I recently purchased a Honda eu2000i just for the purpose of this year's
Field Day and for other future radio outings.

I began to panic somewhat after reading and seeing youtube postings about
the terrible hash emitted by these type of units. The web article by Jim
K9YC was one of many that outlined the cure for this issue.

During my testing the days before Field Day, and during the Field Day
weekend, I observed no issue with some of the problems documented across
the Internet. I utilized a heavy duty 100 foot extension with the genset
positioned away and opposite of the antenna locations.

I am slowly assembling the parts for the following project just for some
added peace of mind...and the fun of project.

http://www.dellroy.com/W4EF%27s-Ham-Radio-Page/Portable_Operation/EU2000i_Filter.htm


Glenn KE4KY
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[w7aqk]

Hi All,

Here in Tucson, I have often "played" Field Day many times with several
other local hams.  We have done this at various times during the year
besides just the official Field Day time.  Each of us has a small travel
trailer (20 to 22 ft. types), so a generator of some sort is pretty
important as we typically just "boondock" somewhere.  A couple of these hams
have Honda 1000 watt models, and a couple others have the 2000 watt model.
Now, both of those types work well, are relatively quiet as to ambient
noise, and only generate moderate hash.  A filter, such as the type
suggested by Jim Brown, K9YC, will typically solve that problem.

When I was making my decision about buying a generator, I initially leaned
toward the Honda 2000 watt model.  There was one "gotcha", however, about
the Honda.  It seemed to be just barely adequate, if not actually
inadequate, to run my trailer's A/C unit.  Apparently the Honda 2000 will do
"O.K." on a 13,500 btu unit, but struggles mightily with one that is 15,000
btu's.  One member of our group had a Yamaha generator that is rated at 2.4
KW, slightly higher than the Honda 2000.  That Yamaha will handle a 15,000
btu A/C unit.  It is, however, a bit worse as to hash, but one of Jim
Brown's filters will resolve that as well.

On my little trailer, I had purchased and paid for a 13,500 btu unit.
However, when I went to pick it up after the install, I was informed that
they had instead put in a 15,000 btu unit since they didn't have the smaller
sized unit in stock.  No extra charge!  Well, good for me, I guess, but when
I went to evaluating generators, it complicated the decision.  If I wanted a
Honda, I either had to go for the 3000 watt model, or go with the Yamaha 2.4
KW unit.  Ultimately I went with the Yamaha.  It was sufficiently more
powerful and somewhat cheaper than the Honda 2 KW unit, has good regulation,
is nearly as quiet as to ambient noise, and I could still lift it without
too much effort.  It's gets good ratings from users.  I think most Honda
aficionados might be equally happy with the Yamaha, and maybe more so if
they push the limit of the Honda.  Of course, I can't run the A/C and a ham
rig of any size simultaneously, but I do have considerably more flexibility.
A 3000 watt Honda might do both, but the cost is substantially higher.

I'm simply suggesting that you consider all possible needs when buying a
generator.  If all you want is just something for ham rigs, a smaller unit
might suffice.  However, even just running an electric coffee often requires
more than what a 1000 watt Honda will provide!  A travel trailer with A/C
may seem excessive, but there are many potential uses that you might not be
considering.  For example, if you happen to have a power outage, you might
want a generator big enough to keep your refrigerator, and maybe a couple of
other critical items, running.  My Yamaha will do that (and has!), but a 1
KW Honda might not!  The moral of the story is to not scrimp on the unit
size if at all possible.  A 1 KW unit is really pretty marginal in my view.

Dave W7AQK



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[Fred Moore-2]

Over the last several years we have tested about 6 different brands of
inverter generators.  Hash on all of them except the Honda's.  I have
not seen any hash on the 1000, 2000, or 3000 generators.  One brand had
hash over +20 on 40 meters.  It was coming directly from the generator,
not the power line cord, moving it out from the trailer on a 100' cord
reduced the hash to around S6. Of course Honda's are the ones everyone
else is trying to beat with a lower price point.  You only get a lower
price point one way in a competitive market, make it cheaper.   Just
purchased a 2000i from Mayberry advertised in QST for 929 free freight
and sales tax to me here in Florida (no relationship).  150 bucks
cheaper than anywhere else I could find it.

Regards.. Fred

Fred Moore
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[Fred Moore-2]

When you evaluate generators look at the continuous load that is what is
important.  Lets compare two Honda units as an example the 2000i and the
3000i.  The 2000i is rated at 2000 watts for 10 minutes and 1600
continuous, while the 3000i is rated at 3000 watts for 10 minutes and
2800 continuous.

Purchasing two 2000i with a slave kit (48 bucks) will run you 1900 bucks
and give you 3200 continuous, while a 3000i will give you only 2800
continuous, you also get to spend 500 bucks more for the 3000i.   The
3000i is  131lbs, while each 2000i is 47lbs each.  I can move two 47 lb
units by myself, a 131lb unit is hard on us old people.

It is much more flexible to have two and only pull out the second one
when you really need it.  one drawback, the 3000 is quieter then two
2000i by a few db's.  Two generators also burn lightly more fuel, but
you may also be able to run two in economy mode, while you would not be
able to run the 3000i in economy making up for the difference in fuel.

I also have found no reason for any type of filter with Honda's..
additional savings.  Also note that one brand the noise hash was being
emitted directly from the generator not the power line, a filter won't
fix that one.

Fred Moore
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phone: [phone]


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[Jim Brown-10]

On 6/30/2017 6:19 AM, Fred Moore wrote:
> I also have found no reason for any type of filter with Honda's..
> additional savings.  Also note that one brand the noise hash was being
> emitted directly from the generator not the power line, a filter won't
> fix that one.

This will, of course, depend on how close the generator and its power
wiring is to antennas. It also depends on the other RF noise at the
site. We operate FD, CQP, and 7QP from places where there is NO local
noise other than what we bring with our gear, so it's common to see
S2-S3 on our K3 meters. If you're somewhere with S6 background noise,
you're less likely to hear noise from the generator. In 7QP, we operate
portable from multiple locations on county lines, so we have two
generators mounted on the bed of the pickup truck that pulls our
contesting trailer. This puts the generators right underneath our
antennas, which makes filtering critical.

The mechanism here is that noise is conducted onto the power cable from
the generator as a common mode signal, which radiates into our antennas.
That's why the common mode choke is needed, and why it works.

73, Jim K9YC

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[Gary Smith-2]

FWIW, I have the Honda EU2000i and have
used it in many situations where hash/rfi
would be unacceptable. I never heard any
hash with the K3 and when I used the 2000i
to power a McIntosh C2600 tube preamp and
MC275 amp, I never heard any artefacts
with the volume full with no signal, dead
quiet.

Another big feature for me is the time it
runs on one gallon, just fantastic.

YMMV but it's worked perfectly for me thus
far.

73,

Gary
KA1J
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[WB4SON]

I own two things that I consider as close to perfect as humanly possible:
 My Elecraft K3, and My Honda EU2000i.

I've never had any issue with hash or RFI with my Honda.  Decades ago, when
they first came out, there were scattered reports, but Honda quickly
corrected the issue.  My Honda is unbelievably quiet, sips gas, and always
starts on a 2-finger pull.  Highly recommend it.  Been thinking of buying
its little brother for years.

73, Bob, WB4SON
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[Fred Moore-2]

Jim;  When using the Honda's I have no experience of relative location
to the antenna's causing a problem.

Also I am absolutely sure no one on this list would expect to hear noise
below the noise that is below the noise when they already had a high
noise floor for other reasons, and they are already hearing noise from
the high noise floor not caused by the generator they could not hear
because of the already high noise floor they already had before the
generator noise floor was generated below the noise floor.

All of my testing was done with places far removed from the mains, that
is why I need a generator to start with.  

The generator I alluded to that was generating extremely high hash, was
generating it without anything plugged in, not even an extension cord,
the hash did not diminish when you placed it on a load either, so it was
NOT common mode.  That generator was the Generac Inverter (3 different
ones) that is competing with the Honda.

BTW I consulted your web site, and didn't see any references to the how
far a generator must be kept from the antenna's, Please add a reference
for all of us so we know when we will have a problem, we may not be able
to move it without advanced warning of the problems it might cause.

If anyone on the list is hearing noise from their generator that is
below their normal noise level, please let us know.. so we can get it
documented on Jims web site.

And I still don't need a common noise choke you designed, so don't think
I will build one, no matter what the mechanism is.

Regards.. Fred

Fred Moore
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phone: [phone]

On 6/30/17 1:55 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 6/30/2017 6:19 AM, Fred Moore wrote:
>> I also have found no reason for any type of filter with Honda's..
>> additional savings.  Also note that one brand the noise hash was being
>> emitted directly from the generator not the power line, a filter won't
>> fix that one.
>
> This will, of course, depend on how close the generator and its power
> wiring is to antennas. It also depends on the other RF noise at the
> site. We operate FD, CQP, and 7QP from places where there is NO local
> noise other than what we bring with our gear, so it's common to see
> S2-S3 on our K3 meters. If you're somewhere with S6 background noise,
> you're less likely to hear noise from the generator. In 7QP, we
> operate portable from multiple locations on county lines, so we have
> two generators mounted on the bed of the pickup truck that pulls our
> contesting trailer. This puts the generators right underneath our
> antennas, which makes filtering critical.
>
> The mechanism here is that noise is conducted onto the power cable
> from the generator as a common mode signal, which radiates into our
> antennas. That's why the common mode choke is needed, and why it works.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 6/30/2017 12:55 PM, Fred Moore wrote:
> All of my testing was done with places far removed from the mains, that
> is why I need a generator to start with.

Mains power is NOT the only source of noise. Noise from electronic
sources is FAR more common, and we often bring a lot of electronic noise
with us with accessories for our radio gear. That's an important part of
the message in the nccc.cc link.

> The generator I alluded to that was generating extremely high hash, was
> generating it without anything plugged in, not even an extension cord,
> the hash did not diminish when you placed it on a load either, so it was
> NOT common mode.  That generator was the Generac Inverter (3 different
> ones) that is competing with the Honda.

Good information, Fred. That tells me that it's terrible layout of
internal wiring and/or circuit board layout. Combined with bad shielding.

> BTW I consulted your web site, and didn't see any references to the how
> far a generator must be kept from the antenna's, Please add a reference
> for all of us so we know when we will have a problem, we may not be able
> to move it without advanced warning of the problems it might cause.

As I've tried to make clear, that depends on the generator, the
antennas, the other noise at the site.

> And I still don't need a common noise choke you designed, so don't think
> I will build one, no matter what the mechanism is.

I'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  I try to help
folks understand how things work, how to make them work better, and how
to solve problems when they happen. A choke won't fix the noise from
that Generac, but it can help a LOT with a better designed unit.

Likewise, the original post asked about how others successfully do
multiple radios on the same band, and I outlined the rules/guidelines
that the fundamentals give us, and what's worked for me.  I'm pleased to
hear that others have short-cutted one or more of these guidelines and
gotten away with it. But I've heard dozens of horror stories over the
years about the RF mess generated by el-cheapo rigs, especially the 706
and the Y-brand equivalents.

My goals are to be able to work QRP stations and home stations with
lousy antennas. To do that, you've gotta be nutso about killing RX
noise. Do the math -- the difference between S3 and S6 is 15-18 dB,
depending on whose definition of an S-unit you accept. 15 dB is a 32x
power difference, 18 dB is 64x. 15 dB more noise makes a 100W signal
sound like a 3W signal.

Most of us own Elecraft rigs because we want the best.  My
recommendations are aimed at making the rest of our stations the best,
and to do so without throwing un-necessary bucks at it.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Edward R Cole]

Two comments:
1.  Our local ham club which consists of mainly HF CW guys, got two
of the 2000i Honda units along with the slave kit to use when more
than one would suffice.  The club equipped a 28 foot trailer as a
mobile response communications unit with up to four operating
positions and it is used with two yagis during FD.  One is 4-element
20m mounted on a folding tower installed on a flat-bed trailer.  They
can set up and be running in 30-minutes.  The Honda's do not seem to
cause any electrical hash and usually set about 50 feet+ from the
comms trailer.
2.  At home I run a 6500w Honda inverter which will run my whole
household including my 8877 kilowatt HVPS or kilowatt 6m sspa.  It is
permanently installed in a doghouse about twelve feet from the mains
meter using a transfer switch.  I've noted no noise issues (RFI or
audible).  Its super-quiet in slow-run mode and handles loads in the
house including the well pump, furnace, and kitchen appliances.  It
was not cheap, but we are often the only one with lights around the
lake when the power goes off (which is frequent enough here in AK).

73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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[Edward R Cole]

I just posted about having a Honda home gen.

Interesting to note what 80m and 20m sounds like when there is a
commercial power outage:  normal S5-S6 noise floor drops to S2 (even
when I run my Honda and the "rest of the world" is dark).  Years ago
(1980's) I lived off the grid in a little cabin and 80m noise floor
was S0; boy could I hear and work them!  Later (1979) the utility ran
wires into my area and noise rose to S3-S4 (those were pre-wifi; now
it would be higher).  This was a town of 150 people 50-miles from the
nearest other town.

73, Ed - KL7UW
------------------------------------------
Jim Brown wrote:

My goals are to be able to work QRP stations and home stations with
lousy antennas. To do that, you've gotta be nutso about killing RX
noise. Do the math -- the difference between S3 and S6 is 15-18 dB,
depending on whose definition of an S-unit you accept. 15 dB is a 32x
power difference, 18 dB is 64x. 15 dB more noise makes a 100W signal
sound like a 3W signal.


73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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[Dean L]

Howdy gang,
I'm going to chime in this OT thread before it gets shut down.
I live off grid ( past 7 years) watching over a very large and efficient
summer "playtoy", for an eccentric fellow.
We have used the 2000i's BIG bro, the Honda 6500 and now the 7000i. Both
are very noisy generating 20db+ of wideband noise, well into vhf range. I
have have tried some snap chokes, on th output without any joy, but may try
one of the  Jim Brown type  filters.

I simply shut the genset off and use a battery when operating my k3/P3,
which is a PITA.

An off OT testimonial .... I ran an EU 6500i , 39000 hours nonstop (only to
give it a fresh drink of Castrol syntec every 150-200 hours..) NEVER had
the head off !! The last 10000 hours it burned abt a pint of castrol every
other day. I finally replaced it with a pair of eu7000's before it quit on
its own.
I'm not sure if it was the synthetic oil or Honda engineering,  but that
was AMAZING.
I will also add, it's a very good thing we bought 2 of the 7000i's,  as
they have been in and out the shop CONSTANTLY, JUNK in comparison.

Any suggestions on having to beefing up the filter for the higher wattage
genset? Sources for the ferrites?
Sorry for hijacking the slightly OT  thread
73 all
Dean K2WW
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 7/7/2017 1:33 PM, Dean L wrote:
> Sources for the ferrites?

http://k9yc.com/KillingReceiveNoise.pdf   See pages 9-10.

Also see http://nccc.cc/pdf/CQP-RFI2013-2.pdf Slides 4-7

73, Jim K9YC

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