OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Ken G Kopp]

Well said, Dave.  Unlike another poster, you appear to have an excellent,
first-hand knowledge of the problem.  My 18 years as the line noise tech
with the Montana Power Company validates your observations.

73

K0PP
On Mar 16, 2016 11:09 AM, "Dave Olean" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I murdered your e mail addresses going off the reflector. They came back
> undelivered.  2nd try!
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Olean" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Lewis Phelps" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>; <
> [hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires
>
>
> Lewis,
>> I would have to respectfully disagree with a major portion of your
>> comments. I would think a better way to discuss power line problems would
>> be to admit that many power line designs for the medium voltages used in
>> neighborhoods are not up to the task. How do I know this? I have had a
>> running battle with an electric utility from the year 1999 up to the
>> present. It has consumed so much of my time that I finally gave up without
>> ever obtaining a lasting solution to my problem.  In those fifteen years I
>> became intimately aware of the problems that can plague above ground power
>> distribution systems. I have even sat in on utility company training
>> sessions, getting a first hand look at how the electric utility trains its
>> line crews.
>>
>> "If the RF interference is caused by power line arcing, it’s going to get
>> detected and fixed pretty quickly by the utility. If it’s there all the
>> time, it very likely isn’t the power company at fault."
>>
>> I would argue that my attempt at power line noise resolution for over 15
>> years does not come anywhere near close to your statement above. The 19 and
>> 34 KV lines really are just too problematic and cannot be expected to be
>> quiet for any length of time. The noise gtenerated has nothing to do with
>> the current carrying wires being too close together. It has everything to
>> do with the huge voltage gradients near high voltage lines and the oxidized
>> metal surfaces in that same area. As someone previously mentioned, staples
>> on ground leads on poles are a constant source of noise. Bell insulators
>> with metal on metal joints between sections are just not capable of
>> remaining quiet for any length of time on these systems. Tie wraps holding
>> wires to pole insulators are always failing. Metal to metal contacts seem
>> to always fail. The electric utility Co does not like to use polymer
>> insulators becuase they do not last as long as the bell insulators in their
>> eyes.  If they would use polymer insulators and remove those metal to metal
>> oxidized surfaces, things would improve in a hurry. The systems are not
>> designed properly for minimizing noise. They are only designed so that they
>> will not fall down over time.  19 and 34 KV systems are the worst in my
>> opinion.
>>    My situation got so bad that I had to contact the FCC to get the power
>> company to even respond to my complaints. Only after receiving a registered
>> letter from the FCC and Riley Hollingsworth did the power company try to
>> help solve my problem. A second letter from Laura Smith at the FCC was also
>> needed. After all of this I still had to expend tremendous amounts of time
>> documenting all of the failures and hope that the utility would fix them in
>> an aggressive manner. They never did. The technical people would come out
>> and do a good job of corroborating my findings and writing them up for nthe
>> crews, but the line crews always would come up short and fail to adequately
>> fix the problems. Some of that was  due to lack of understanding. Another
>> part was due to the distribution system, as designed, was not really
>> capable of being quiet for very long. There were just too many high voltage
>> gradients around oxidized/corroded pieces of metal.  An interesting point I
>> noted was that the cable systems located on the same poles were almost
>> never a source of noise for me. I can recall only one instance of CATV RFI
>> and that involved cable leakage that affected the 145 MHz frequency range.
>>    So now I have a ham shack that has a nice view of a town 8 miles away
>> along with a line of sight view of a 34.5 KV distribution line that feeds
>> central New Hampshire. At any given time there are 20 or 30 individual
>> noise emitters that are constantly bothering me on headings between 150
>> degrees, then out to the west, and then to NE at about 25 or 30 degrees
>> azimuth. A sharp 144 MHz array allows me to pinpoint multiple noise
>> sources. It gets worse on dry windy days. Low humidity makes all of the
>> bell insulators start singing. Throw in a few arcing tie wraps or cracked
>> insulators, and the cacophony is deafening. It has caused me to stop trying
>> to use many frequencies as a result. The 10M, 6M, and 2M bands are
>> unuseable now for any weak signal work. At times 222 and 432 MHz are
>> bothered as well. If I turn my beams east into Maine, they use 7200 volt
>> distribution there, around the village, and I have almost no noise
>> problems. If there is a problem, it can be fixed and will stay quiet for
>> years afterward.
>>    My only saving grace in other directions is that the K3 noise blanker
>> system is quite effective. The signals do get distorted and the radio can
>> easily overload, but it does a good job of removing noise so that I can
>> hear weaker signals some times. Dry days with wind are unuseable for me.
>>
>> 73
>> Dave K1WHS
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis Phelps" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 10:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires
>>
>>
>> Drawing from a decade of experience working as head of the PR department
>>> for a major electric utility (a long time ago), I’d like to suggest that
>>> arcing per se should not be a problem at any time with any power line if it
>>> is functioning properly. The individual transmission wires are spaced far
>>> enough apart that arcing shouldn’t be possible. Many utilities regularly
>>> wash down the insulators of high voltage transmission lines using
>>> specialized equipment that cleans condensed salt water fog off the
>>> insulators with deionized water (necessary to keep from zapping the guy
>>> running the spray nozzle). This is to prevent arcing between phases, which
>>> can otherwise occur in high humidity situations.  If there’s noise coming
>>> from lower-voltage distribution lines down “down the hill” I would name the
>>> prime suspect as cable TV equipment that’s hung on the same utility poles
>>> as the power line. If the RF interference is caused by power line arcing,
>>> it’s going to get detected and fixed pretty quickly by the utility. If it’s
>>> there all the time, it very likely isn’t the power company at fault. (This
>>> discussion doesn’t include any consideration of Power Line Communication
>>> technologies, which are an identifiably different kind of interference.)
>>>
>>> See:
>>> http://tdworld.com/overhead-distribution/insulator-washing-helps-maintain-reliability
>>>
>>>
>>> Lew N6LEW
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 15, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Alan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The 6 meter moonbouncer who lives up the hill from me told me he has no
>>>> problem from the high-tension line that runs right by his place but has
>>>> experienced noise from the lower-voltage lines farther down the hill.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that HT lines are probably less likely to have arcing than
>>>> lower-voltage lines, simply because it would be a much bigger problem for
>>>> the power company if they did.
>>>>
>>>> Alan N1AL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 03/15/2016 02:27 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue,3/15/2016 12:56 PM, Rose wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It sounds like you're speaking of a distribution line.  Do you have
>>>>>> any idea that the voltage is?  Is there more than one pole at each
>>>>>> cross arm?  It could be almost anything up to 240 KV ... or more.
>>>>>> In my semi-rural area the voltage for distribution is 14.4 KV, which
>>>>>> is pretty usual these days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a high voltage distribution line running along my property line
>>>>> that has not been a problem in the 10 years I've lived here, but
>>>>> there's
>>>>> been other power line noise around that's radiated from other poles.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/>
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <
>>>> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>>
>>> Lew Phelps N6LEW
>>> Pasadena, CA DM04wd
>>> Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
>>> Yaesu FT-7800
>>> [hidden email]
>>> www.n6lew.us
>>>
>>> Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been
>>> put together will fall apart.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Lots of good info, but due to the large number of posts, let's end this thread
now in the interest of lowering list overload for others.

73, Eric

Eric
/Modulator - //elecraft.com/

On 3/16/2016 10:27 AM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
> Well said, Dave.  Unlike another poster, you appear to have an excellent,
> first-hand knowledge of the problem.  My 18 years as the line noise tech
> with the Montana Power Company validates your observations.
>
> 73
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]