OT: Motorola buys Yeasu. Wow!

[Joe Stofko]

!5 or 20 years ago, a decent crew at Motorola in Schaumberg (mostly hams)

had a pretty good thing going, refurbishing some of the batwing company's

commercial rigs and making them available to amateurs. I do not know the

details .. in fact what I am relaying here is all hearsay!  Anyway. with

the exception of the 2 meter HT already mentioned in this thread. and

the "rumors" of the back-door gear I mentioned here..  I don't think that

Motorola has any interest in the amateur radio market.      Since

Kenwood seems to have lost interest in developing and promoting new

ham gear.. maybe Motorola will offer the Yaesu amateur product

line to Kenwood !  Or.. drop the division entirely. as I think Yaesu

has taken a pretty big hit with the FT2000 and FT9000. That would

mean the BIG players would be Icom, TenTec. and . of course.

Elecraft !

Joe - WB1AIU

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[w0mu]

What hit with the 2000?  The 2000 has sold very well.  The 9000 roll out a
complete mess.  They could spin out the Amateur division and try to sell
it...Not sure who would buy it.  They do have some very good Handhelds and
mobile rigs.  The 857 was a big seller.  I am not sure what sales of the new
950 have been doing.  The rotors sell pretty well.

Someone mentioned that Kenwood had some new amateur hf rigs in the works.

I don't think Ten Tec or Elecraft would be able to mass produce a radio like
the 2000 was.  Let's not get into the merits if the radio is good or not.
There are probably over 1000 FT-2000's in the US market alone.






On 11/5/07 9:04 PM, "Joe Stofko" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> !5 or 20 years ago, a decent crew at Motorola in Schaumberg (mostly hams)
>
> had a pretty good thing going, refurbishing some of the batwing company's
>
> commercial rigs and making them available to amateurs. I do not know the
>
> details .. in fact what I am relaying here is all hearsay!  Anyway. with
>
> the exception of the 2 meter HT already mentioned in this thread. and
>
> the "rumors" of the back-door gear I mentioned here..  I don't think that
>
> Motorola has any interest in the amateur radio market.      Since
>
> Kenwood seems to have lost interest in developing and promoting new
>
> ham gear.. maybe Motorola will offer the Yaesu amateur product
>
> line to Kenwood !  Or.. drop the division entirely. as I think Yaesu
>
> has taken a pretty big hit with the FT2000 and FT9000. That would
>
> mean the BIG players would be Icom, TenTec. and . of course.
>
> Elecraft !
>
> Joe - WB1AIU
>
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

1000 FT-2000s is not a large number!  Compare that with over 6000 K2s,
about 2500 K1s and at least 1800 KX1s if I recall the serial numbers
that have come to my attention.  I have no idea how many K3s are on
order, but my guess is that it is close to 1000 already.

73,
Don W3FPR

Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
>
> I don't think Ten Tec or Elecraft would be able to mass produce a radio like
> the 2000 was.  Let's not get into the merits if the radio is good or not.
> There are probably over 1000 FT-2000's in the US market alone.
>  
>
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[w9gb]

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

[wayne burdick]

Greg Beat wrote:

> Ha ha ... someone hand Wayne the smelling salts ...
> he likely passed out after reading that post (Elecraft acquires Yaesu).
>
> Guess opportunity and problems come in bunches!
>

We've got our hands full with the K3. And Eric and I are both 50, now,
so we don't want to be moving any 30 to 50-pound radios around.

The K3 (8 pounds) will save our backs for domestic peace initiatives.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


---

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[VR2BrettGraham]

WA6VNN responded to K7SVV:

>>Did any of you see the ARRL bulletin about Motorola  buying Vertex?   It has
>>been a long time since I have seen a U.S.  company buying a foreign company.
>
>Maybe  now we'll be able to get the HF Power transistors that they quit
>supplying for  the FT100s that have been failing

The semiconductor business of Motorola was sold off a few
years ago - it's now known as Freescale.

73, VR2BrettGraham.

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[Jack Brindle]

Actually there were two separate companies created from what was  
Motorola Semiconductor Group. The first was On Semiconductor, which  
makes all sorts of transistors, logic and analog ICs. Th second was  
Freescale, consisting mostly of the microprocessors and  
microcontrollers, plus a few other things.

On Nov 6, 2007, at 7:35 PM, VR2BrettGraham wrote:

> WA6VNN responded to K7SVV:
>
>>> Did any of you see the ARRL bulletin about Motorola  buying  
>>> Vertex?   It has
>>> been a long time since I have seen a U.S.  company buying a  
>>> foreign company.
>>
>> Maybe  now we'll be able to get the HF Power transistors that they  
>> quit
>> supplying for  the FT100s that have been failing
>
> The semiconductor business of Motorola was sold off a few
> years ago - it's now known as Freescale.
>
> 73, VR2BrettGraham.
>
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-Jack Brindle, W6FB
=======================================================================


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[Corboy - Poteet]

My thoughts (semi-serious) were that should the Amateur products
portion of Vertex include manufacturing and marketing it might be
worth looking at. Internal access to the Japanese market and I would
think that Elecraft could cherry pick for the capabilities they could
use (like manufacturing). But you are right, even should Motorola be
able to do a clean split of the amateur radio portion they would
certainly expect the buyer to assume all warranty obligations and
other repair, not a pleasant prospect.

But probably all of Yaesu amateur products are so inextricably tied to
Vertex commercial and government gear that a clean separation will be
impossible. Motorola is certainly not going to continue turning out
Yaesu amateur radio products but the 20% left in the hands of the
company's founder may do so in some form.

Ironic, if Yaesu fades and Kenwood slowly withdraws, we may get back
to the point where the big names in amateur gear are again American
and (perhaps) European. I guess China could enter the market but I
would expect that the Chinese business model does not include low
volume endeavors like Ham Radio (unless, of course, Elecraft sells
hundreds of thousands of K3's and the Chinese notice). :)


Mike   W5FTD






> Ha ha ... someone hand Wayne the smelling salts ...
> he likely passed out after reading that post (Elecraft acquires Yaesu).

> Guess opportunity and problems come in bunches!

> w9gb


>> You know, this may be Elecraft's opportunity to make its first
>> corporate acquisition: take Yaesu off Motorola's hands (this assuming
>> that Yaesu has some manufacturing and marketing assets). Though
>> probably Yaesu manufacturing is contracted out to China; perhaps not a
>> net plus for Elecraft.
>  
>> Mike  W5FTD



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[Julian, G4ILO]

The disappearance of companies like Yaesu and Kenwood and their boring
products could be the best thing to happen to ham radio for a long
time. It would create new opportunities for small companies like
Elecraft or Juma (http://www.nikkemedia.fi/juma-trx2/). Small
companies selling direct via the Internet can compete well on cost
with the big mass produced products because the dealers and
distributors handling the latter products demand such huge profit
margins.

I think that as the Chinese gain more personal wealth (and they are -
you may not see many Chinese tourists in the USA due to visa
restrictions but they are in Europe now in droves) and get interested
in ham radio you will see more Chinese ham radio products. I have a
Chinese 2m HT (though it's really a wide band VHF model that I've
programmed 2m channels into.) The Chinese are not really innovators
though. Their strength is in manufacturing cheaply products that are
designed elsewhere - something Wayne and Eric might want to think
about if the K3 order book keeps growing faster than they can make
them. :)
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf


On Nov 7, 2007 6:00 AM, Corboy-Poteet <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My thoughts (semi-serious) were that should the Amateur products
> portion of Vertex include manufacturing and marketing it might be
> worth looking at. Internal access to the Japanese market and I would
> think that Elecraft could cherry pick for the capabilities they could
> use (like manufacturing). But you are right, even should Motorola be
> able to do a clean split of the amateur radio portion they would
> certainly expect the buyer to assume all warranty obligations and
> other repair, not a pleasant prospect.
>
> But probably all of Yaesu amateur products are so inextricably tied to
> Vertex commercial and government gear that a clean separation will be
> impossible. Motorola is certainly not going to continue turning out
> Yaesu amateur radio products but the 20% left in the hands of the
> company's founder may do so in some form.
>
> Ironic, if Yaesu fades and Kenwood slowly withdraws, we may get back
> to the point where the big names in amateur gear are again American
> and (perhaps) European. I guess China could enter the market but I
> would expect that the Chinese business model does not include low
> volume endeavors like Ham Radio (unless, of course, Elecraft sells
> hundreds of thousands of K3's and the Chinese notice). :)
>
>
> Mike   W5FTD
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ha ha ... someone hand Wayne the smelling salts ...
> > he likely passed out after reading that post (Elecraft acquires Yaesu).
>
> > Guess opportunity and problems come in bunches!
>
> > w9gb
>
>
> >> You know, this may be Elecraft's opportunity to make its first
> >> corporate acquisition: take Yaesu off Motorola's hands (this assuming
> >> that Yaesu has some manufacturing and marketing assets). Though
> >> probably Yaesu manufacturing is contracted out to China; perhaps not a
> >> net plus for Elecraft.
> >
> >> Mike  W5FTD
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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[Joseph M Grib]

I have to disagree with you Julian, first off I worked for one of the
major
dealers in the US market for about 10 years and can tell you that this is

a 2% business for major gear. Sure, they make some profit on accessories,

but lets face it, few guys buy a ton of accessories for their HT's, and
darn
few for mobiles or HF stations.

Why do you think that ham dealers across the US have been folding?

Why do you think there's been a lack of dealer and manufacturer presence
at hamfests and shows?

It's because it's not profitable to do it. A ham dealer has to pay his
bills for rent,
salaries, stock, electricity, taxes, etc. just like any other buisness
does.
A business must turn about $10,000 in sales at a show or hamfest to make
it
worthwhile to show up. This covers salaries, gas, expenses in moving
stock to
the show.

Do you work for free? Why then do you expect the ham dealers to or their
employees to?? Would you get up at 3 AM on a Sunday, drive for a few
hours,
set up your stand, stand outside in the hot sun/rain/whatever and then
pack it all
up just to unload and be back at your job on Monday for free week after
week?

What you the consumer are paying for is the service behind the sale and
the ability
to actually see things before you purchase them.  The dealer has an
upfront cost for
a storefront, utilities, stock, knowledgeable employees, and other
expenses that like
any other company he/she wants a return on their investment for.

When I was on the other side of the counter, I heard all the time how "I
can get it cheaper
by the 1-800-XXX number." Then fine and go use the 800 number but when
it's needing
repairs or you need advice, go call the 800 number and don't come bother
me. Oh, they
don't offer advice or solve issues on the 800 order line? There's a "no
return" policy on
defective equipment? No return policy on unwanted gear? What a shame...

How many times I've had customers play "let's make a deal" at the ham
store? This is a
business, not a hobby for us. You don't walk into your local grocery
store and argue
with the checkout clerk how cheap you can get milk somewhere else do you?
When you
walk into a major department store, you don't argue that you can buy the
same pair of pants
cheaper somewhere else do you? Then why do you do it at a ham store?

Sure there's tons of places to get stuff on the internet and I'm sure a
lot cheaper, but if the ham
community wants ham stores to be around and not everthing to be either a
800 number or on
the internet, then you will have to support your local store and local
dealers, or they'll disappear.

We've lamented more than once that our owner could close the doors, sell
everything
and put his money in a regular savings account at a bank and make a
better profit than
we turn sometimes.

Enough said.... back to my hole.....

73,

Joe KI3B




On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:15:03 +0000 "Julian G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
writes:

> The disappearance of companies like Yaesu and Kenwood and their
> boring
> products could be the best thing to happen to ham radio for a long
> time. It would create new opportunities for small companies like
> Elecraft or Juma (http://www.nikkemedia.fi/juma-trx2/). Small
> companies selling direct via the Internet can compete well on cost
> with the big mass produced products because the dealers and
> distributors handling the latter products demand such huge profit
> margins.
>
> I think that as the Chinese gain more personal wealth (and they are
> -
> you may not see many Chinese tourists in the USA due to visa
> restrictions but they are in Europe now in droves) and get
> interested
> in ham radio you will see more Chinese ham radio products. I have a
> Chinese 2m HT (though it's really a wide band VHF model that I've
> programmed 2m channels into.) The Chinese are not really innovators
> though. Their strength is in manufacturing cheaply products that
> are
> designed elsewhere - something Wayne and Eric might want to think
> about if the K3 order book keeps growing faster than they can make
> them. :)
> --
> Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
>
>
> On Nov 7, 2007 6:00 AM, Corboy-Poteet <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > My thoughts (semi-serious) were that should the Amateur products
> > portion of Vertex include manufacturing and marketing it might be
> > worth looking at. Internal access to the Japanese market and I
> would
> > think that Elecraft could cherry pick for the capabilities they
> could
> > use (like manufacturing). But you are right, even should Motorola
> be
> > able to do a clean split of the amateur radio portion they would
> > certainly expect the buyer to assume all warranty obligations and
> > other repair, not a pleasant prospect.
> >
> > But probably all of Yaesu amateur products are so inextricably
> tied to
> > Vertex commercial and government gear that a clean separation will
> be
> > impossible. Motorola is certainly not going to continue turning
> out
> > Yaesu amateur radio products but the 20% left in the hands of the
> > company's founder may do so in some form.
> >
> > Ironic, if Yaesu fades and Kenwood slowly withdraws, we may get
> back
> > to the point where the big names in amateur gear are again
> American
> > and (perhaps) European. I guess China could enter the market but
> I
> > would expect that the Chinese business model does not include low
> > volume endeavors like Ham Radio (unless, of course, Elecraft
> sells
> > hundreds of thousands of K3's and the Chinese notice). :)
> >
> >
> > Mike   W5FTD
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Ha ha ... someone hand Wayne the smelling salts ...
> > > he likely passed out after reading that post (Elecraft acquires
> Yaesu).
> >
> > > Guess opportunity and problems come in bunches!
> >
> > > w9gb
> >
> >
> > >> You know, this may be Elecraft's opportunity to make its first
> > >> corporate acquisition: take Yaesu off Motorola's hands (this
> assuming
> > >> that Yaesu has some manufacturing and marketing assets).
> Though
> > >> probably Yaesu manufacturing is contracted out to China;
> perhaps not a
> > >> net plus for Elecraft.
> > >
> > >> Mike  W5FTD
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
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> >
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>

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[N2EY]

-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph M Grib <[hidden email]>

>this is
>a 2% business for major gear.

I've heard this from other sources and I think it's true. Even if it
were a 10% business that doesn't give a lot of wiggle room.

>Why do you think that ham dealers across the US have been folding?
>Why do you think there's been a lack of dealer and manufacturer
presence
>at hamfests and shows?

>It's because it's not profitable to do it.

Yup. But that's not our fault, is it?

>Do you work for free?

The days when most people had 9 to 5 M-F jobs and paid overtime for
anything
outside those strictly defined limits are pretty much over. How many
hours do
you think Wayne, Eric and the others have put in on the K3?

>What you the consumer are paying for is the service behind the sale and
>the ability to actually see things before you purchase them.

Agreed. And the products have to be priced to support that.

>When I was on the other side of the counter, I heard all
>the time how "I can get it cheaper
>by the 1-800-XXX number." Then fine and go use the 800 number but when
>it's needing
>repairs or you need advice, go call the 800 number and don't come
bother
>me.

Yup.

The question is, why do the rigmakers allow their product to be
distributed
that way? Don't they realize that, by doing so, they are killing off
their
distribution network?

>You don't walk into your local grocery
>store and argue
>with the checkout clerk how cheap you can get milk somewhere else do
you?

>Then why do you do it at a ham store?

But when you go to buy a car, haggling over the price is often part of
the deal -
even a new car that's in demand. Same for when you buy real estate. Why
is it
OK to haggle for those things but not a ham rig that costs hundreds or
thousands
of dollars?

One thing that has kept me homebrewing and Elecrafting for many years
is the
ads in ham magazines that show a rig but don't show a price. Sorry, but
how
much it costs is an important specification!

>Sure there's tons of places to get stuff on the internet and I'm sure a
>lot cheaper, but if the ham
>community wants ham stores to be around and not everthing to be either
a
>800 number or on
>the internet, then you will have to support your local store and local
>dealers, or they'll disappear.

Or perhaps times have changed...

For a very long time, Heathkit was only available by mail order. The
price of a
  Heathkit was what it said in the catalog and in the magazine ads.
Unless you
lived in MI you didn't pay sales tax but you did pay shipping. Heath
eventually
opened retail stores, but they didn't last too long.

Ten Tec is only available factory-direct. The prices are clearly shown
and the
same for everybody. Service is reportedly excellent. I understand that
once
upon a time TT was available through dealers, but that ended years ago.

And of course Elecraft offers excellent service and advice, spare parts
and
direct advice from all levels of the company.

This isn't just happening with ham rigs. Want parts? There's Digi-Key
(guess where
the name comes from?) Mouser, Dan's Small Parts and many others. Wire
and
cable? The Wireman and many others.

Last time I needed to fix an appliance (old Maytag D8300 dryer - yes,
even Maytags
break) I got the parts online. Ordered Saturday, at my door Tuesday.

A big part of what makes these things possible are:

- email and the internet
- modern ham gear is smaller, lighter and more reliable than the old
stuff
- there are many shipping options, and with the smaller/lighter ham rigs
the cost is not *too* bad.

Perhaps the day of the distributor is ending, and
factory-direct/internet sales
is the new paradigm for a lot of things.

73 de Jim, N2EY
________________________________________________________________________
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[Joseph M Grib]

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:22:40 -0500 [hidden email] writes:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph M Grib <[hidden email]>
>
> >this is
> >a 2% business for major gear.
>
> I've heard this from other sources and I think it's true. Even if
> it
> were a 10% business that doesn't give a lot of wiggle room.
>
> >Why do you think that ham dealers across the US have been folding?
> >Why do you think there's been a lack of dealer and manufacturer
> presence
> >at hamfests and shows?
>
> >It's because it's not profitable to do it.
>
> Yup. But that's not our fault, is it?

Can't argue with that, but again, a lot of people want/need hand holding
which is
unfortunately also going by the wayside. The big point I'm trying to make
is that
no-one in the biz is making a killing at a store. The "big" perceived
profit isn't there.
I heard that argument constantly when I was working for them and frankly,
it just
isn't true.

>
> >Do you work for free?
>
> The days when most people had 9 to 5 M-F jobs and paid overtime for
>
> anything
> outside those strictly defined limits are pretty much over. How many
>
> hours do
> you think Wayne, Eric and the others have put in on the K3?

Tons of hours, and their product shows it. But we're not talking about a
design
team here, we're talking about a retail merchant. The guy/gal behind the
counter
answering your questions, giving you advice, assisting you with the sale,
and
if necessary, service after the sale.

Regarding the K3, it's a very impressive piece of equipment I must say
from what I've been reading on the 'net. I have a few K1's and a K2
myself.
Not for sale any price either. They're great rigs.

>
> >What you the consumer are paying for is the service behind the sale
> and
> >the ability to actually see things before you purchase them.
>
> Agreed. And the products have to be priced to support that.

No argument here....

>
> >When I was on the other side of the counter, I heard all
> >the time how "I can get it cheaper
> >by the 1-800-XXX number." Then fine and go use the 800 number but
> when
> >it's needing
> >repairs or you need advice, go call the 800 number and don't come
> bother
> >me.
>
> Yup.
>
> The question is, why do the rigmakers allow their product to be
> distributed
> that way? Don't they realize that, by doing so, they are killing off
>
> their
> distribution network?

Agreed, but like everything else, once a dealer/distributor grasps a
means of selling something
be it the net or a '800' number the others must follow or see their sales
greatly diminish.
Unfortunately though, there are still a lot of people who flock to shows
and dealerships
to 'see' and 'touch' a piece of equipment before they buy. Why do you
think consumer
electronic shows are so busy? Why do you think car shows are so busy?
People may look
endlessly for a great price, but at some time they want to actually see
the product they're
buying before they take delivery. I don't care if it's a camera or a
Corvette. People will
want to see it and touch it if possible before they buy, even if that
purchase is months or
years down the pike. They'll buy magazines (QST) for reviews of equipment
and compare
endlessly the specifications of one piece of gear to another before they
buy. They'll ask
questions and get opinions on reliability and ease of use. Let me tell
you, you're not
going to get that from a shopping cart on a webpage or a 800 number order
taker.

Your local dealer is going to try to keep you, the customer happy. If
there's a known
problem with a rig, a respectable dealer will tell you up front. If
you're making a mistake
a respectable dealer will tell you and try to help. If you're not sure
what antennas to
raise or what to buy, a dealer will try to help you. If you have a issue
with a radio, a
dealer will try to help you with the problem to keep your business.

A dealer will try to have knowledgeable salespeople working for him/her
to assist
customers. Anyone can take an order over the phone and punch it into a
computer, but
a salesperson who genuinely wants to help his customer will take the time
to assist in the
sale and necessary accessories, not just be expected to ring you up like
the cashier at
a WalMart.

>
> >You don't walk into your local grocery
> >store and argue
> >with the checkout clerk how cheap you can get milk somewhere else
> do
> you?
>
> >Then why do you do it at a ham store?
>
> But when you go to buy a car, haggling over the price is often part
> of
> the deal -
> even a new car that's in demand. Same for when you buy real estate.
> Why
> is it
> OK to haggle for those things but not a ham rig that costs hundreds
> or
> nds
> of dollars?

Can't answer that, but there is a point where a car dealer will no longer

'haggle' with you or anyone else because that point of profit is built
into the
sale and no matter what you do, or try to do, they won't reduce the price
any further. The markup on a car is a lot more than any ham rig I
believe.
I'll also guarantee you that the average major car dealership are selling
a
lot more cars per month than the ham market sells big rigs as a whole,
otherwise they won't be in business very long.

Cars are also a important part of life, in most areas of the country a
car is
a necessity, not a luxury like a ham rig is. Let's be honest, in most
cases
average people need a reliable car to get to work and will sacrifice to
have a well running car. Ham rigs like a lot of other luxuries in life
are
purchased with discretionary money, that is money that you have to
purchase a item of personal nature for yourself, like a golfer would
purchase a set of clubs or a hunter a new gun. Few people in life need
a ham rig to survive (though I've seen a few that have made me
wonder at times!!)

>
> One thing that has kept me homebrewing and Elecrafting for many
> years
> is the
> ads in ham magazines that show a rig but don't show a price. Sorry,
> but
> how
> much it costs is an important specification!

Yep I agree with you 100% there...

>
> >Sure there's tons of places to get stuff on the internet and I'm
> sure a
> >lot cheaper, but if the ham
> >community wants ham stores to be around and not everything to be
> either
> a
> >800 number or on
> >the internet, then you will have to support your local store and
> local
> >dealers, or they'll disappear.
>
> Or perhaps times have changed...
>
> For a very long time, Heathkit was only available by mail order. The
>
> price of a
>   Heathkit was what it said in the catalog and in the magazine ads.
>
> Unless you
> lived in MI you didn't pay sales tax but you did pay shipping. Heath
>
> eventually
> opened retail stores, but they didn't last too long.

True, True... I remember many a night looking at the Heath catalog....
But why did Heath go out of business? Was it because people didn't
want to build any more? Was it because people found Japanese equipment
be it TV's or stereo's a lot cheaper and ready to go out of the box?
Was it their equipment didn't have all the features of the latest item
on the shelf at the local store? Or a combination of all the above?

Same reasons today, there's a percentage of the ham population
that will build a radio, and a even smaller percentage that will
consistently build, and I'll bet even a smaller amount of people that
will completely homebrew something that they have to search for
parts for. Most people either don't have the time or desire to build
from scratch and if they do, no matter how badly they screw it up,
they expect the item to work the first time, or they expect the kit
maker or someone else to fix their problem.

Why do you think guys had a small business of assembling K2's? I
saw the book and the instructions are pretty clear, and straightforward.
Some people want the rig, but not the work that goes into building or
making it. They want to buy a finished product, not a kit and am
willing to pay someone else to pick up parts and solder it together.

>
> Ten Tec is only available factory-direct. The prices are clearly
> shown
> and the
> same for everybody. Service is reportedly excellent. I understand
> that
> once
> upon a time TT was available through dealers, but that ended years
> ago.

Also true.... I really do like my Ten Tec gear. I've bought and sold a
lot of
rigs over the years but my Ten Tec's aren't for sale. Again, as you
stated,
the price is the same for everybody. Why should it be any different at a
ham store?

I've seen sales made and lost for major pieces of gear for amounts as
little
as $10. The thing I found most amusing was when we got a call and looked
up the price of tax, and shipping the buyer was going to end up paying
from the
other dealer. In a lot of cases (unless we had a store in your state and
they charged sales tax) we picked up shipping and didn't charge tax, and
you still got the rig cheaper in the end than the discount guys were
selling
it to you. But people only see the 'price' of the rig, not the 'final
price' on
the invoice when everything was said and done.

I'll tell you one of the best experiences I had with buying a car was to
buy
a Saturn. Same price for everyone, no haggling, no 'better deal'. The
price,
was the price, period. I bought 5 of them and was very happy with all of
them. I'd be driving one now if they made a pickup truck and a bit bigger
(size wise) car. I flipped one mid air and rolled it and my wife and I
escaped with no bruises or injuries. My Vue was a great car I must say.

>
> And of course Elecraft offers excellent service and advice, spare
> parts
> and
> direct advice from all levels of the company.
>
> This isn't just happening with ham rigs. Want parts? There's
> Digi-Key
> (guess where
> the name comes from?) Mouser, Dan's Small Parts and many others.
> Wire
> and
> cable? The Wireman and many others.
>
> Last time I needed to fix an appliance (old Maytag D8300 dryer -
> yes,
> even Maytags
> break) I got the parts online. Ordered Saturday, at my door
> Tuesday.

No argument here, but a question.... Where did you buy the dryer? I
agree though a dryer is a lot bigger and more of a pain to purchase over
the mail than a ham rig would be, but the point I'm making is that you
went
somewhere local, agreed on a model, and either brought it home yourself
or had it delivered from a local merchant. If your dryer broke during
it's
warranty period, your merchant was expected to provide (or at least
assist you) with service for that unit.

I agree also that we're looking at an 'apples and oranges' item here
because
no-one (or very few of us) would buy a dryer over the internet or via an
800
number, but my argument of service still is the same, you buy locally and
expect
to receive service from the local dealer for that item, and yeah, I had a
few
Maytag items break too, but I do admit I got a lot of years out of them
before
they did!!

>
> A big part of what makes these things possible are:
>
> - email and the internet
> - modern ham gear is smaller, lighter and more reliable than the old
>
> stuff
> - there are many shipping options, and with the smaller/lighter ham
> rigs
> the cost is not *too* bad.
>
> Perhaps the day of the distributor is ending, and
> factory-direct/internet sales
> is the new paradigm for a lot of things.

Maybe that's true Jim, and I'm all for cheaper, well built gear like the
next
guy. My point is that if you want something besides a 800 number to call
or a mouse click, then people have to understand part of having a
storefront
is the cost of doing business. That cost includes the ability of the
customer to
actually see, touch, ask questions and turn the knobs before they
purchase,
and that ability costs money.

If you're comfortable buying something for several thousand dollars off a

webpage then great. But I'll tell you, from my experience, there are
still a
lot of guys out there that want to turn the knobs a bit before they pull
out
their wallet. Even if the purchase is made later using a 800 number or
the
net' later on, they'll travel to a show or store (even hours away) to see
the
item before they buy it.

73,

Joe KI3B

>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
> Mail! -
> http://mail.aol.com
>
>
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