OT: NVIS with KX3
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Hello elecrafters,
It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. My questions are: 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under emergency). 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. 73 Johnny VR2XMC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Not exactly related to this but ...fwiw as someone fairly new to this
reflector ... I'm just as interested in what people *do* with their Elecraft equipment as well as how their experiences ..whether DX ..Contest ..EComm..VHF/UHF/EME etc. using Elecraft equipment compare with experiences using other equipment. Some of the threads here do go on too long ..or once in awhile go off on an extreme tangent ..but for the most part ...I think we are a little too quick to claim "off topic" ....YMMV 73 Steve KL7SB -----Original Message----- From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Johnny Siu Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:03 PM To: Elecraft; [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] OT: NVIS with KX3 Hello elecrafters, It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. My questions are: 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under emergency). 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. 73 Johnny VR2XMC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
1) I can't answer the question about power, but it's easy enough to try
it and see. 2) 40M should work for this application. Frequencies depend on local practice, QRM, etc. 3) You need a horizontal antenna for this mode, so a Buddipole would have to be configured that way. But I think -- since you would only be operating one band -- that a more efficient and simpler to use system would be an ordinary dipole. A good height for an NVIS dipole on 7100 kHz would be 3 to 5 m above ground. I suspect that a loaded antenna like a Buddipole would be more affected by ground losses than a simple dipole. All of the above is easy to test with two radios and antennas! On 4/23/2014 9:03 PM, Johnny Siu wrote: > Hello elecrafters, > > It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. > > Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are > going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area > (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to > trial run for ARES. My questions are: > > 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose > under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone > mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation > under emergency). > > 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU > Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such > proposes? > > 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go > good results for similar operation in the past? > > Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply > off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
On 4/23/2014 9:03 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:
> I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? That's one ringer. A Buddipole for 80 or 40M will require lots of inductive loading, so it will be VERY inefficient. Also, with NVIS, ground conductivity matters -- you need good ground conductivity to get good NVIS. It's worth studying the sections of the ARRL Antenna Book on the topic of propagation, and how the state of ionization by the sun affects whether you have a chance at NVIS. When you're using QRP, you have at least one hand tied behind your back. Don't let a poor antenna choice tie the other one. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal
On 4/23/2014 9:43 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote:
> You need a horizontal antenna for this mode, so a Buddipole would have > to be configured that way. But I think -- since you would only be > operating one band -- that a more efficient and simpler to use system > would be an ordinary dipole. YES! 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
I use my KX3 just like this - see answers below:
> On Apr 23, 2014, at 9:04 PM, "Johnny Siu" <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hello elecrafters, > > It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. > > Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. My questions are: > > 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under emergency). Yes - in fact it works quite well at only the 5w limit using the internal batteries. You will need external power to get 10w output. > 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? 40m during the day, 80m at night. > 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? There are better - and cheaper - ways to go for NVIS. Go to DX Engineering's webpage and look for their "paper" on an NVIS antenna to build. A quick websearch will also turn up similar plans. These are all based on the US military's NVIS antenna system. You do not need the "special" parts DX offers, although I did get wire from them. The antenna system is a crossed inverted V with the apex being 15ft high, the wires and rope (I used 550 paracord) are the guy-lines. Instead of a long coax for the feedline I used 300ohm ladder, but that can be a pain as you need to keep it off the ground. It does keep the weight down when packing though. For at home, I will be switching to coax. I also use an Elecraft BL2 balun (set to 1:1) at the KX3 before the feedline. (After the switch to coax, I will be using the balun set to 4:1 at the feedpoint.) From what I've read, a balun isn't required, just recommended. I also have the internal tuner option - very important. I have used the above antenna on 20m also, and have made contact with Denver (I'm in southern AZ), a distance of about 650miles on 10w. 73, Jeff - KG7HDZ > Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
Hi Johnny,
On 40 meters, I work all over the West Coast (0-1000 miles north/south) during the daytime with 5 to 10 W. The antenna is a random-length OCF dipole about 15' off the ground. I'm not sure how many clouds I'm burning, but many of the stations I work are short- and medium-range. I think this should work in your situation. Wayne N6KR On Apr 23, 2014, at 9:03 PM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hello elecrafters, > > It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. > > Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. My questions are: > > 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under emergency). > > 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? > > 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? > > Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > > __._,_.___ > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) > VISIT YOUR GROUP > • New Members 18 > • New Photos 8 > > • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use > . > > __,_._,___ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: [KX3] OT: NVIS with KX3
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Since you are going to operate only one band, why not a resonate dipole. 40 meters should be ok and the antenna is only 66 feet long. The added benefit is no antenna tuner needed. You will find shortened antennas like the Buddipole are not that efficient. I would suggest that before the trip, try a couple of different configurations locally with your friends using 40 meters as a test,
73 de George, W6GF On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:43 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: Hi Johnny, On 40 meters, I work all over the West Coast (0-1000 miles north/south) during the daytime with 5 to 10 W. The antenna is a random-length OCF dipole about 15' off the ground. I'm not sure how many clouds I'm burning, but many of the stations I work are short- and medium-range. I think this should work in your situation. Wayne N6KR On Apr 23, 2014, at 9:03 PM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hello elecrafters, > > It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. > > Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. My questions are: > > 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under emergency). > > 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? > > 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? > > Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > > __._,_.___ > Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) > VISIT YOUR GROUP > • New Members 18 > • New Photos 8 > > • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use > . > > __,_._,___ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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A dipole cut for the band is certainly best, but in a pinch, compromise antennas will still allow you to make a few contacts. I've checked into 40 meter nets many times running 3 watts (SSB) into a 25' sloping wire tossed into a tree, or 10 W mobile into a 52" center-loaded whip.
Wayne N6KR On Apr 24, 2014, at 8:57 AM, george fritkin <[hidden email]> wrote: > Since you are going to operate only one band, why not a resonate dipole. 40 meters should be ok and the antenna is only 66 feet long. The added benefit is no antenna tuner needed. You will find shortened antennas like the Buddipole are not that efficient. I would suggest that before the trip, try a couple of different configurations locally with your friends using 40 meters as a test, > > 73 > de > George, W6GF > On Thursday, April 24, 2014 8:43 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Johnny, > > On 40 meters, I work all over the West Coast (0-1000 miles north/south) during the daytime with 5 to 10 W. The antenna is a random-length OCF dipole about 15' off the ground. I'm not sure how many clouds I'm burning, but many of the stations I work are short- and medium-range. I think this should work in your situation. > > Wayne > N6KR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
My county's RACES group runs an NVIS net every Tuesday at 6:00pm. I'm
not a member, but I occasionally check in as a guest, and often listen to the summary reported later in the evening over the local VHF repeater. We're a very hilly county in earthquake country -- RACES plans to use ridgetop VHF repeaters for emcom if available, with NVIS HF as a backup if the repeaters fail. The net is always run on 40m, 80m, and one other band, often 60m. Most people are running in the neighborhood of 100W. I've checked in with a KX3 and a longwire loop at 10W. It usually works, but it's not consistent -- then again, nobody's equipment is consistent. The bands vary quite a bit. Because 6:00pm is nighttime in the winter, and daylight in the summer, there is some seasonal variation in which bands work best (80m night, 40m day is a good rule of thumb, but it doesn't hold 100%). There is also some apparently random fluctuation in which bands work best from one week to the next, probably correlated with solar activity. Sometimes they all work really well. Other times nothing works really well, though we can usually find some way to at least relay messages around our county on some band or another. There's a difference between, "I've managed to make contact with this equipment" and "I can very reliably contact the person I need to reach with this equipment". I'm sure a KX3 with a Buddipole can make NVIS contacts. But I'd expect that to get really reliable communications, you'll at least want to have various prearranged calling frequencies on different bands, and you'll want to continually test your setup by doing repeated drills at different times of day, under different solar conditions. I'll echo what others have said about using a good antenna. I own a Buddipole and really like it, but for 40m or 80m, it helps to have longer radiating elements. Using the Buddipole mast, arms, and coils, but tying some long sloping wires to the ends to make an inverted vee may be one of many strategies you could try. 73 de Rich/AG6QR ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
Just a short note to thank for all your replies. This mailing listing is wonderful and I have learnt a lot from you.
TNX & 73 Johnny VR2XMC ________________________________ 寄件人︰ Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> 收件人︰ Elecraft <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> 傳送日期︰ 2014年04月24日 (週四) 12:03 PM 主題︰ OT: NVIS with KX3 Hello elecrafters, It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. My questions are: 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under emergency). 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good results for similar operation in the past? Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. 73 Johnny VR2XMC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Johnny Siu
I use nvis mode frequently. I too tried my buddipole but ended up using its
mast and versatee to support wire cut for 7mhz. Works great and allows coverage for most of the west coast. i am in northern california. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by wayne burdick
I've heard it said that a wire on the ground as a "reflector" improves NVIS
coms if the ground is poor. I can't model this, but perhaps someone could comment. I'm inclined to think that it might take several wires on the ground to make a difference. It's an interesting idea to play with. David G3UNA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] OT: NVIS with KX3 Hi Johnny, On 40 meters, I work all over the West Coast (0-1000 miles north/south) during the daytime with 5 to 10 W. The antenna is a random-length OCF dipole about 15' off the ground. I'm not sure how many clouds I'm burning, but many of the stations I work are short- and medium-range. I think this should work in your situation. Wayne N6KR On Apr 23, 2014, at 9:03 PM, Johnny Siu <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hello elecrafters, > > It is off topic and you may wish to press 'del' button now. > > Local ham clubs together with some hams in the China Mainland are going to > do some drilling in ARES within the Pearl River Delta area (with a radius > of about 50km). NVIS could be one of the operation to trial run for ARES. > My questions are: > > 1. Is the power output say 10w from KX3 good enough for such purpose > under SSB? We don't want CW which requires training operators. Phone mode > can be operated by anyone with minimal guidance (a simulation under > emergency). > > 2. During day time, is 40m a proper band to use (no 60m band in ITU Region > 3)? If yes, what will be usually frequencies used such proposes? > > 3. I am going to use Buddipole for the NVIS antenna. Did you go good > results for similar operation in the past? > > Looking forward to your advice and thanks in advance. Please reply > off-the-list so as to save the bandwidth here. > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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> I've heard it said that a wire on the ground as a "reflector" improves NVIS coms if the ground is poor. A single wire under the dipole doesn't do much. Less than a dB according to EZNEC. Any parasitic effect is muddled by the "reflector" being on the ground. It's mostly about height. About 25 ft over average ground for 40 meters is best. Some go lower for a perceived receive advantage. I've tried 12 ft and it's much worse than 25 ft. YMMV Brian, K0DTJ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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