OT: Speaker Wire Recommendations?

[Clay Autery-2]

OK... so I am knee deep in assembling and installing a subRX, et al.,
but got reminded by the XYL that I STILL have not addressed the signal
bleed into the audio system via the long runs of parallel conductor
speaker wires in the HT setup.
In order to maintain a high "SAF" (Spouse Acceptance Factor), I need to
deal with this issue WHILE I am in the attic re-configuring the network
and routing various shack related wiring.

I cannot imagine a stellar group of operators as are gathered here have
not had to deal with this before.  <grin>  I am hoping that replacing
the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair (or shielded, twisted
pair, w/shield properly terminated) will mitigate the hits the HT system
is taking.

*Q:  Do any of y'all have recommendations for a particular wire stock
for use in this application?* Small system...  only about 50W per
channel on the 5 main speakers, so they don't have to be monster-sized
conductors.  I considered using CAT-5(+) wire and bonding all 4 pair to
a single loop, but I don't think a single run would be enough copper
(?), and I don't want to make multiple runs per driver.

*Any ideas?*

73,

--
______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
[phone]

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[Jim Rhodes-2]

I would get some mix 31 beads or cores large enough for several turns of
whatever wire you choose at each end of the runs. Those long wires make for
pretty good antennas.

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, 02:11 Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OK... so I am knee deep in assembling and installing a subRX, et al.,
> but got reminded by the XYL that I STILL have not addressed the signal
> bleed into the audio system via the long runs of parallel conductor
> speaker wires in the HT setup.
> In order to maintain a high "SAF" (Spouse Acceptance Factor), I need to
> deal with this issue WHILE I am in the attic re-configuring the network
> and routing various shack related wiring.
>
> I cannot imagine a stellar group of operators as are gathered here have
> not had to deal with this before.  <grin>  I am hoping that replacing
> the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair (or shielded, twisted
> pair, w/shield properly terminated) will mitigate the hits the HT system
> is taking.
>
> *Q:  Do any of y'all have recommendations for a particular wire stock
> for use in this application?* Small system...  only about 50W per
> channel on the 5 main speakers, so they don't have to be monster-sized
> conductors.  I considered using CAT-5(+) wire and bonding all 4 pair to
> a single loop, but I don't think a single run would be enough copper
> (?), and I don't want to make multiple runs per driver.
>
> *Any ideas?*
>
> 73,
>
> --
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> [phone]
>
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[Lyn WØLEN]

Are you certain that the RF is entering your audio system via the speaker wires?  There are other possible points of entry that are more susceptible ... namely component interconnects, AC power wiring and other "low level" access points.  RF chokes on all such cables may be necessary.

That being said, it probably wouldn't hurt to replace the existing speaker wiring with well shielded, twisted pair.  Just make sure to use a heavy enough wire (you say 'only 50 watts' but you don't specify the wire length), and to properly ground the shield.  The one pitfall is that you will be adding capacitance to the speaker wires.

Step 1 would seem to be exhaustive testing thru process of elimination.

73
Lyn, WØLEN



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Clay Autery
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:10 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Speaker Wire Recommendations?

OK... so I am knee deep in assembling and installing a subRX, et al.,
but got reminded by the XYL that I STILL have not addressed the signal
bleed into the audio system via the long runs of parallel conductor
speaker wires in the HT setup.
In order to maintain a high "SAF" (Spouse Acceptance Factor), I need to
deal with this issue WHILE I am in the attic re-configuring the network
and routing various shack related wiring.

I cannot imagine a stellar group of operators as are gathered here have
not had to deal with this before.  <grin>  I am hoping that replacing
the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair (or shielded, twisted
pair, w/shield properly terminated) will mitigate the hits the HT system
is taking.

*Q:  Do any of y'all have recommendations for a particular wire stock
for use in this application?* Small system...  only about 50W per
channel on the 5 main speakers, so they don't have to be monster-sized
conductors.  I considered using CAT-5(+) wire and bonding all 4 pair to
a single loop, but I don't think a single run would be enough copper
(?), and I don't want to make multiple runs per driver.

*Any ideas?*

73,

--
______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
[phone]

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[Ted Roycraft-3]

Take a look at

http://www.arrl.org/Radio-Frequency-Interference-rfi

There are several links there that may help you. I’ve had some success
using ferrite toroids.

73, Ted, W2ZK
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[Randy Farmer-2]

If the present speaker wire is nothing but some kind of parallel
conductor zip cord, you have a good chance of fixing the problem by
replacing it with a twisted pair geometry cable (no shield or ferrites
required). I've used Audioquest FLX-DB 14/2 with good success with a
hi-fi system located literally underneath my antennas on the roof. You
can get it at Crutchfield, or probably many other outlets, at a fair price.

73...
Randy, W8FN

On 1/10/2020 2:09 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

> OK... so I am knee deep in assembling and installing a subRX, et al.,
> but got reminded by the XYL that I STILL have not addressed the signal
> bleed into the audio system via the long runs of parallel conductor
> speaker wires in the HT setup.
> In order to maintain a high "SAF" (Spouse Acceptance Factor), I need
> to deal with this issue WHILE I am in the attic re-configuring the
> network and routing various shack related wiring.
>
> I cannot imagine a stellar group of operators as are gathered here
> have not had to deal with this before.  <grin>  I am hoping that
> replacing the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair (or
> shielded, twisted pair, w/shield properly terminated) will mitigate
> the hits the HT system is taking.
>
> *Q:  Do any of y'all have recommendations for a particular wire stock
> for use in this application?* Small system...  only about 50W per
> channel on the 5 main speakers, so they don't have to be monster-sized
> conductors.  I considered using CAT-5(+) wire and bonding all 4 pair
> to a single loop, but I don't think a single run would be enough
> copper (?), and I don't want to make multiple runs per driver.
>
> *Any ideas?*
>
> 73,
>

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[donovanf]

Clay,


You'll get more meaningful feedback if you move this RFI discussion
to the RFI reflector. The Elecraft reflector is the wrong place for it.


https://www.contesting.com/FAQ/rfi 


If you're using passive speakers as you implied in your email, a ferrite core
at each speaker connection to your amplifier should do the trick.
Suggest you disconnect all five speakers and reconnect them and
work on them one at a time


This is an excellent resource:


www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf


73
Frank
W3LPL



----- Original Message -----

From: "Clay Autery" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 8:09:54 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Speaker Wire Recommendations?

OK... so I am knee deep in assembling and installing a subRX, et al.,
but got reminded by the XYL that I STILL have not addressed the signal
bleed into the audio system via the long runs of parallel conductor
speaker wires in the HT setup.
In order to maintain a high "SAF" (Spouse Acceptance Factor), I need to
deal with this issue WHILE I am in the attic re-configuring the network
and routing various shack related wiring.

I cannot imagine a stellar group of operators as are gathered here have
not had to deal with this before. <grin> I am hoping that replacing
the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair (or shielded, twisted
pair, w/shield properly terminated) will mitigate the hits the HT system
is taking.

*Q: Do any of y'all have recommendations for a particular wire stock
for use in this application?* Small system... only about 50W per
channel on the 5 main speakers, so they don't have to be monster-sized
conductors. I considered using CAT-5(+) wire and bonding all 4 pair to
a single loop, but I don't think a single run would be enough copper
(?), and I don't want to make multiple runs per driver.

*Any ideas?*

73,

--
______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
[phone]

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[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

Or with parallel zip cord, chuck one end in a vice and the other in the
electric drill.    Pull it tight and turn it on and make your own
twisted pair.    Be sure and keep it tight at all times.   How many
twists?   Depends on how long one hold the trigger down.   About 10
turns per foot is good.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 1/10/2020 8:02 AM, Randy Farmer wrote:

> If the present speaker wire is nothing but some kind of parallel
> conductor zip cord, you have a good chance of fixing the problem by
> replacing it with a twisted pair geometry cable (no shield or ferrites
> required). I've used Audioquest FLX-DB 14/2 with good success with a
> hi-fi system located literally underneath my antennas on the roof. You
> can get it at Crutchfield, or probably many other outlets, at a fair
> price.
>
> 73...
> Randy, W8FN
>
> On 1/10/2020 2:09 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> OK... so I am knee deep in assembling and installing a subRX, et al.,
>> but got reminded by the XYL that I STILL have not addressed the
>> signal bleed into the audio system via the long runs of parallel
>> conductor speaker wires in the HT setup.
>> In order to maintain a high "SAF" (Spouse Acceptance Factor), I need
>> to deal with this issue WHILE I am in the attic re-configuring the
>> network and routing various shack related wiring.
>>
>> I cannot imagine a stellar group of operators as are gathered here
>> have not had to deal with this before.  <grin>  I am hoping that
>> replacing the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair (or
>> shielded, twisted pair, w/shield properly terminated) will mitigate
>> the hits the HT system is taking.
>>
>> *Q:  Do any of y'all have recommendations for a particular wire stock
>> for use in this application?* Small system...  only about 50W per
>> channel on the 5 main speakers, so they don't have to be
>> monster-sized conductors.  I considered using CAT-5(+) wire and
>> bonding all 4 pair to a single loop, but I don't think a single run
>> would be enough copper (?), and I don't want to make multiple runs
>> per driver.
>>
>> *Any ideas?*
>>
>> 73,
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 1/10/2020 12:09 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
> that replacing the speaker wire with either simple twisted pair

This assumes that we're talking about passive loudspeakers, NOT those
with built-in power amps. Twisted pair. No need for shielding. If it's a
serious hi-fi system, use #10 or #12 to preserve the "tightness" of bass
response. If there's still RFI, add a choke where it connects to the
power amp.

Small conductors like CAT5 can cause the lows to go "mushy" by degrading
the damping factor.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 1/10/2020 5:15 AM, Lyn Norstad wrote:
> Are you certain that the RF is entering your audio system via the speaker wires?  There are other possible points of entry that are more susceptible ... namely component interconnects, AC power wiring and other "low level" access points.  RF chokes on all such cables may be necessary.

Great advice. But I'd do the speaker wiring first.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 1/10/2020 6:02 AM, Randy Farmer wrote:
> I've used Audioquest FLX-DB 14/2

A much cheaper solution is to buy two colors of THHN from your local big
box store, put one end of both cables in a bench vise, the other ends in
a portable drill, and twist (a LOT). Then set the drill down overnight
to let the twist "rest" to minimize untwisting (it will untwist some).

73, Jim K9YC
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 1/10/2020 11:08 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:
> If it is a long run, you might use a 70.7 V system with Cat 5 cable. Put transformers on each end to run higher voltage (lower current) on the wire and use cheap, good twisted pair.

Not a great idea if you care about low frequency response -- the
transformers you can buy don't have enough iron to provide acceptable
bass response.

73, Jim K9YC
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[k6dgw]

Hmmm ... I've always thought 70V systems were designed for PA usage
where BW is somewhat limited.  Something about the transformers
saturating on the hi power in the extreme bass of quality
Hi-Fi/Stereo/HT systems?  Not a professional however, easily could be wrong.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/10/2020 11:08 AM, Walter Underwood wrote:

> If it is a long run, you might use a 70.7 V system with Cat 5 cable. Put transformers on each end to run higher voltage (lower current) on the wire and use cheap, good twisted pair.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant-voltage_speaker_system
>
> Another approach would be to use line-level over Cat 5, then put an audio amplifier at the speaker. I use a dual 15 W amp that runs off of 9 to 18 V.
>
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C4MT274/
>
> Amazon shows the exact model at not available, but there are plenty of similar alternatives.
>
> https://smile.amazon.com/Amplifier-DROK-Channel-Digital-Speakers/dp/B07PYGCVWJ/
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B075JDPTKM/
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>

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