OT: Want USB Output Keyer Info.

[David Allred]

Greetings:

I'm reluctant to post something not directly related to Elecraft (I  
really like my KX1) to this list, but I would like to use your  
collective knowledge of Morse technology to find something different:  
an iambic input to USB output device.

Recently, a friend has had surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome.  
Although there are many disability solutions available, I would like  
to help him use his ability to send code (he's a Ham and uses both  
iambic and straight keys) instead of a keyboard for his computer,  
during his recovery.

That's why I would like to have your help finding a device for iambic  
input and USB output.

As far as I can tell, no device exists that will allow you to type on  
a computer with an iambic key.

There are plenty of solutions that go the other way: computer or  
keyboard to Morse. I think I saved a link for everything available,  
hardware and software, when I was looking for something I could use  
for Morse by keyboard. (I've been using an MFJ-495 for keyboard to  
Morse. No USB input, but that rant is unrelated to the current need.)

Of course there are many ways to create a work-around. Plenty of  
computer programs can take contact closure or audio input and present  
text on screen. That text could then be copied and pasted into an  
email or other document, instead of typing. That's ok, and I can put  
together something useful built out of programs, routines, and glue,  
but it isn't a single box solution.

So it comes down to this:

   • I would like to find a device that has iambic input and a USB  
output.

   • Do you know of such a device?

In an effort to reduce OT QRM on the list, please reply to me directly  
by email or use the contact form at my Radio Webpage:

   <http://radio.photoninc.com/>

I'll post the results, if any, back to the list, when they are found.

Thanks,
David
N1VU

      |  J. David Allred
      |
      |  P H O T O N
      |
      |  [hidden email]
      |  Photon, Inc.
      |  617-661-9046
      |  www.photoninc.com







      |  J. David Allred
      |
      |  P H O T O N
      |
      |  [hidden email]
      |  Photon, Inc.
      |  617-661-9046
      |  www.photoninc.com



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[David Allred]

David:

Thanks for the reply.

> It is possible that someone who wanted to play with USB implementing  
> microcontrollers might do the software on the keyer side of the USB

True. It's been done many times.

> and interface using the USB HDI keyboard protocol

This is the missing piece. But, can a USB I/O implementation also  
include the keyboard protocol. The drivers are different, but is this  
feature an easy hardware or software addition? Does the USB chip  
already include latent hardware of software?

> such a device would be bad consumer choice

Right again. The market is limited. But if this feature is easy to add  
to an existing design, why not put it in? Maybe someone already put it  
in, but we don't know about it yet.

(If I had the device, I'd use it to talk back to my dentist. A little  
key strapped to my leg sending text to the text-to-speech software in  
my laptop. Hey, I actually could do it now. Keyer audio to the  
computer, decoded with MultiMode or MRP40, use a shell script to grab  
the text and put it into Simple Text, then invoke text-to-speech...  
Hah! Then he'd have real comments to his monologue. No more "ahn-hunh,  
urk." Now he'll get a real answer when he ... but, I digress.)

> the average consumer wouldn't be able to reflash the device with  
> improved software

Actually, there isn't anything preventing this. The keyboard under my  
fingers right now got a firmware update in February. Since an iambic  
to USB device is probably a keyer with a computer interface, that  
would provide an update path.

Also, we aren't average (I hope). I recently changed the chip in my  
ancient MFJ-495 to bring it up to the current firmware version.  
Improved software can be a chip-change away.

> you cannot represent key up, or more generally, multiple key  
> presses, with morse code.

For the present application, it's not an issue. My friend would be  
able to enter plain text into a document faster with a keyer than he  
does now, limited to one-finger typing. Anything other than simple  
text and punctuation could be added by one-finger typing.

Also, if this really were an issue, the Mac OS already has adaptive  
technology built in. Stickey Keys in Universal Access provides a way,  
for instance, to type Shift, Option, Control, and other meta keys with  
one finger. Many disabilities limit people to single-press keyboard  
use. And, if it's been built into the Mac OS for fifteen years, it has  
to be in Windows too.

>> In an effort to reduce OT QRM on the list, please reply to me  
>> directly by email or use the contact form at my Radio Webpage:
>
> That's not particularly a good idea, because you lose peer review of  
> the suggestions and people may waste time by telling you the same  
> thing over and over again.

I agree. But, one man's peer review is another man's waste of  
bandwidth. I opted for less interference, but an open thread does save  
some effort (or start rant-vs.-rant or, worse, a flame war - "because  
it's off-topic for this list." And then it really gets out of hand.  
Before you know it, Wayne's Mighty Fist of Death comes to Smite the  
rogue and pointless thread, squashing it into ... but, I digress.).

Open is fine with me.

Thanks,
David
N1VU


     |  J. David Allred
     |
     |  P H O T O N
     |
     |  [hidden email]
     |  Photon, Inc.
     |  617-661-9046
     |  www.photoninc.com



On May 22, 2008, at 7:14 PM, David Woolley (E.L) wrote:

> David Allred wrote:
>> That's why I would like to have your help finding a device for  
>> iambic input and USB output.
>
> If there were a market for such, which I very much doubt, I would  
> expect it to be implemented using generic USB hardware with a host  
> device driver actually implementing the decoding.  However, I doubt  
> that you would think that a USB parallel port would meet your  
> requirements, even though it actually meets them as stated.
>
> It is possible that someone who wanted to play with USB implementing  
> microcontrollers might do the software on the keyer side of the USB  
> and interface using the USB HDI keyboard protocol, but such a device  
> would be bad consumer choice, because the average consumer wouldn't  
> be able to reflash the device with improved software, and because  
> you cannot represent key up, or more generally, multiple key  
> presses, with morse code.
>
> There are specialist Assistive Technology retailers on the web who  
> sell specialist input devices, but I think they would consider  
> learning morse too difficult and the proportion of their market who  
> already had that skill to be negligible.
>
>> In an effort to reduce OT QRM on the list, please reply to me  
>> directly by email or use the contact form at my Radio Webpage:
>
> That's not particularly a good idea, because you lose peer review of  
> the suggestions and people may waste time by telling you the same  
> thing over and over again.
>
> --
> David Woolley
> "The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related  
> to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
> List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>

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[David Woolley (E.L)]

David Allred wrote:
>
>> It is possible that someone who wanted to play with USB implementing
>> microcontrollers might do the software on the keyer side of the USB
>
> True. It's been done many times.

Something like this might well appear as an amateur radio project, as
virtually all of it can be done with a single, flashable, chip.  You
just need suitable firmware.
>
>> and interface using the USB HDI keyboard protocol
>
> This is the missing piece. But, can a USB I/O implementation also
> include the keyboard protocol. The drivers are different, but is this
> feature an easy hardware or software addition? Does the USB chip already
> include latent hardware of software?

USB hardware implements a low level protocol which is just about
communicating data.  There are higher level protocols for many different
devices and classes of device.  One of those is Human Interface Devices
(I wrote HDI by mistake, originally), which include keyboards.  So one
approach is to implement USB HID in the device firmware.  However,
modern operating systems have to have clearly defined software driver
interfaces, both above and below, so there should be a keyboard driver
interface and a USB low level interface, so a morse code decoding USB
driver could be interposed between the two.

Another approach would be to use the hooks used to support Chinese,
etc., input and actually feed the key input as two extra keys on a
standard keyboard, or the keyer output as one. It is possible that these
input method editors would not receive events in a sufficiently timely
manner to correctly decode them.  More generally, it is possible for
applications on windowing systems to generate keyboard event; the only
possible problem is that they need to grab input from the real input
device whilst the main application has normal input focus.  It might,
therefore, be possible for morse decode software applications to be put
into a keyboard emulator mode.

One disadvantage of a computer side driver is that the keyboard will not
be able to talk to the BIOS.

>
> Also, we aren't average (I hope). I recently changed the chip in my
> ancient MFJ-495 to bring it up to the current firmware version. Improved
> software can be a chip-change away.

A chip change for a device like this would be essentially a complete
replacement of the device.

>
>> you cannot represent key up, or more generally, multiple key presses,
>> with morse code.
>
> For the present application, it's not an issue. My friend would be able
> to enter plain text into a document faster with a keyer than he does

It's true that you could simply generate paired down and up events.


>> That's not particularly a good idea, because you lose peer review of
>> the suggestions and people may waste time by telling you the same
>> thing over and over again.
>
> I agree. But, one man's peer review is another man's waste of bandwidth.

I know there is a significant lobby that all postings on the list should
have a strong component making explicit reference to Elecraft hardware
or business policies, but the charter (see sig) actually says "and more
general topics related ham radio".  As this topic is about exploiting
skills that are mainly limited to radio amateurs these days (and is
particularly prevalent amongst Elecraft users), it seems to me that it
is on topic, and some people find the most interesting thing about
mailing lists is what they learn from threads that are near the edge of
the charter (or drift off charter).



--
David Woolley
"The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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[David Allred]

George:

So far, my request has started some interesting discussions and  
resulted in one pointer to something I had not seen before:

Ted Cowan, KC7PM posted this link on the Ham-Mac list:

<http://www.cinahazegh.com/2006/05/30/the-amazing-morse-code-keyboard/>

A graduate student has come up with a new (at least to me) computer  
input device that incorporates Morse code for character input.  
Depending on how he has implemented I/O, he may have already done most  
of the work needed to build a general Morse to USB device.

If I hear back from the thesis project creator, I'll post any useful  
results here.

David
N1VU

      |  J. David Allred
      |
      |  P H O T O N
      |
      |  [hidden email]
      |  Photon, Inc.
      |  617-661-9046
      |  www.photoninc.com



On May 22, 2008, at 10:18 PM, George Badger wrote:

> David
> I am deeply interested in finding the same device as I am a  
> reasonably good CW op but a terrible typist.
> Please inform me of your findings.
> Thank you very much in advance.
> 73
> George     W6TC

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[David Allred]

David:

>  So one approach is to implement USB HID in the device firmware.

I believe this is available as a chip or as part of other chips.

>  However, modern operating systems have to have clearly defined  
> software driver interfaces, both above and below, so there should be  
> a keyboard driver interface and a USB low level interface, so a  
> morse code decoding USB driver could be interposed between the two.

Maybe so, but I think we can skip that step. Writing driver can be a  
real pain in the butt. If the Morse can be parsed (as is done in some  
software) and passed to a generic USB keyboard chip (in place of the  
key strobe scan output), the keyboard drivers already in the computer  
OS will treat the Morse character the same as a keyboard key press.

This would take care of the driver problem and use what is already  
available. For instance, Mac OS X includes generic drivers that  
support all Open Host Controller Interface (OHCI) bus controllers. In  
general, third-party developers do not need to write drivers for the  
USB family. This is likely also the case for Windows.

Anything that looks like any flavor of USB keyboard just works.

> Another approach would be to use the hooks used to support Chinese,  
> etc., input and actually feed the key input as two extra keys on a  
> standard keyboard, or the keyer output as one.

This would probably work, but not all computer OSs have implemented  
Unicode. And even when they do have system level support, plenty of  
applications don't have Unicode support.

>  More generally, it is possible for applications on windowing  
> systems to generate keyboard event; the only possible problem is  
> that they need to grab input from the real input device whilst the  
> main application has normal input focus.

This works, but requires deep understanding at the driver level.  
Peter, W8PS, has done this to add key-click sounds to our modern quiet  
keyboards.
<http://sustworks.com/site/prod_keyclick_overview.html>
Also, unlike the OCHI drivers, different versions would have to be  
written for each OS.

> One disadvantage of a computer side driver is that the keyboard will  
> not be able to talk to the BIOS.

Not really a problem at the driver level since the OS takes care of  
the hardware interface.

If I had to build a Morse to USB device from scratch (like I've really  
got the time), I would find a way to get one of the keyer chips, such  
as WinKeyer, to pass its output to Morse reader microcontroller, such  
as the MFJ, which would then talk to a generic USB keyboard chip.

Most of the work may have already been done as a thesis project: see  
my post to George, W6TC.

Thanks for your comments.

David
N1VU

      |  J. David Allred
      |
      |  P H O T O N
      |
      |  [hidden email]
      |  Photon, Inc.
      |  617-661-9046
      |  www.photoninc.com



On May 23, 2008, at 3:47 AM, David Woolley (E.L) wrote:

> David Allred wrote:
>>> It is possible that someone who wanted to play with USB  
>>> implementing microcontrollers might do the software on the keyer  
>>> side of the USB
>> True. It's been done many times.
>
> Something like this might well appear as an amateur radio project,  
> as virtually all of it can be done with a single, flashable, chip.  
> You just need suitable firmware.
>>> and interface using the USB HDI keyboard protocol
>> This is the missing piece. But, can a USB I/O implementation also  
>> include the keyboard protocol. The drivers are different, but is  
>> this feature an easy hardware or software addition? Does the USB  
>> chip already include latent hardware of software?
>
> USB hardware implements a low level protocol which is just about  
> communicating data.  There are higher level protocols for many  
> different devices and classes of device.  One of those is Human  
> Interface Devices (I wrote HDI by mistake, originally), which  
> include keyboards.  So one approach is to implement USB HID in the  
> device firmware.  However, modern operating systems have to have  
> clearly defined software driver interfaces, both above and below, so  
> there should be a keyboard driver interface and a USB low level  
> interface, so a morse code decoding USB driver could be interposed  
> between the two.
>
> Another approach would be to use the hooks used to support Chinese,  
> etc., input and actually feed the key input as two extra keys on a  
> standard keyboard, or the keyer output as one. It is possible that  
> these input method editors would not receive events in a  
> sufficiently timely manner to correctly decode them.  More  
> generally, it is possible for applications on windowing systems to  
> generate keyboard event; the only possible problem is that they need  
> to grab input from the real input device whilst the main application  
> has normal input focus.  It might, therefore, be possible for morse  
> decode software applications to be put into a keyboard emulator mode.
>
> One disadvantage of a computer side driver is that the keyboard will  
> not be able to talk to the BIOS.
>
>> Also, we aren't average (I hope). I recently changed the chip in my  
>> ancient MFJ-495 to bring it up to the current firmware version.  
>> Improved software can be a chip-change away.
>
> A chip change for a device like this would be essentially a complete  
> replacement of the device.
>
>>> you cannot represent key up, or more generally, multiple key  
>>> presses, with morse code.
>> For the present application, it's not an issue. My friend would be  
>> able to enter plain text into a document faster with a keyer than  
>> he does
>
> It's true that you could simply generate paired down and up events.
>
>
>>> That's not particularly a good idea, because you lose peer review  
>>> of the suggestions and people may waste time by telling you the  
>>> same thing over and over again.
>> I agree. But, one man's peer review is another man's waste of  
>> bandwidth.
>
> I know there is a significant lobby that all postings on the list  
> should have a strong component making explicit reference to Elecraft  
> hardware or business policies, but the charter (see sig) actually  
> says "and more general topics related ham radio".  As this topic is  
> about exploiting skills that are mainly limited to radio amateurs  
> these days (and is particularly prevalent amongst Elecraft users),  
> it seems to me that it is on topic, and some people find the most  
> interesting thing about mailing lists is what they learn from  
> threads that are near the edge of the charter (or drift off charter).
>
>
>
> --
> David Woolley
> "The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related  
> to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
> List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>

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