[OT] Zip Wire Misrepresentation?

[Wes Stewart-2]

The number of tragedies in my life suggest otherwise, but in this case, I must
live a charmed life.

I have never had RFI issues while using zip cord for speaker wiring in and
around my ham shack.  I have used the red/black stuff for DC wiring but lately
I'm using 10 AWG wire made for low-voltage landscaping use.  I also use it for
connecting the speakers in my audio/video system.  The only downside is that the
insulation is very thick since it's appropriate for direct burial and I have to
shave it down a little to get it into the abysmal Power Pole connectors that are
standard on too many devices these days.

Wes  N7WS

  On 8/11/2016 10:11 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> Over the years, I've bought some of the red/black zip cord at hamfests. While
> I have not measured any of it with a micrometer, my strong impression has been
> that it IS smaller than labeled.
>
> More to the point -- zip cord is TERRIBLE cable for loudspeaker wiring because
> it has very poor RF rejection. It has been well known for more than 120 years
> that twisted pair has quite powerful  rejection of all interference, from a
> few Hz to high RF. Think about it -- for the first 100+ years of telephony,
> telephone wiring ran EVERYWHERE on the same poles as 60 Hz power lines with no
> interference. Their ONLY measure to reject 60 Hz was to have the telephone
> lines cross over each other every few poles along the run. This was enough of
> a twist when the only interference was 60 Hz. Even today, there are huge
> quantities of telephone, intercom, and even audio wiring carried on unshielded
> twisted pair. CAT5/6 carry high data rate signals on opposing pairs without
> interference. At tutorial lectures, I've demonstrated ordinary CAT5 providing
> RF rejection as good as shielded twisted pair into the high VHF range. And
> I've solved more than a dozen instances of RFI to home entertainment systems
> simply by replacing glorified zip cord with twisted pairs of #12 POC (plain,
> ordinary copper).
>
> For the same reason, twisted pair is superior for power wiring in our stations.
>
> As to resistance -- I use the shortest practical runs of #10 between my power
> source (a big 100Ah LiFePO4 battery) and my two K3s. I do this because like
> most 12V radios, it's cleaner (lower levels of key clicks) at higher supply
> voltages.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On Thu,8/11/2016 8:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
>> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that auction
>> site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker cable". The
>> conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming common practice or is
>> wire going the way of 2X4 lumber? Suggestions for a reputable source of true
>> 10GA PTFE zip wire for K3 power?
>
>
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[Wes Stewart-2]

That's what Al Gore said.

On 8/11/2016 10:56 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>
> At least that's what I saw on the Internet and you're not allowed to put
> anything on the Internet that isn't true ...
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> Sparks NV
> Washoe County DM09dn

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[Jim Brown-10]

On Thu,8/11/2016 12:03 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
> So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire?

All the calculators assume sinusoidal current (i.e., a perfect 60 Hz
sine wave). That's not the real world -- only un-controlled heating
elements draw sine wave current. For at least the past 30+ years,
electronic loads dominate, and the what's connected to the power line is
a transformer-rectifier-capacitor power supply, and now usually as the
input to an SMPS. The line current drawn by such a supply takes the form
of short pulses at positive and negative peaks of the 60 Hz waveform, so
both IR drop and dissipation is much greater than predicted by simple
sine wave analysis. None of this is taken into account by NEC.

Thus, it IS good engineering practice to oversize AC conductors.

There's a tutorial discussion of this in

http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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[Elecraft mailing list]

Also, the number of wires by size in conduit should help the cost equation also.   3 ea #6 conductor requires 1" conduit, while 3 ea, #12 can be put in 1/2" conduit.
Mel, K6KBE


      From: Lewis Phelps <[hidden email]>
 To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] NEC wire size requirements (was: Zip Wire Misrepresentation?)
   
I’ve changed the subject line because this discussion has strayed from the original question.

At retail rates (e.g. price per foot from lower.com) #6 wire is 89 cents per foot, and #12 wire is 8.2 cents per foot;  assuming Clay’s 50 foot run and 3 wires for a 110 VAC circuit with ground, per NEC, the added cost for wire would be $121.20. 

Is it “good engineering practice?”  It seems to be to be OK from an electrical standpoint, albeit unnecessary, and unnecessary from a cost standpoint, albeit not harmful.

 I can certainly understand “over-specifying” wire size in a 12 volt circuit, and using larger wire size than is required simply from considering ampacity,  because the voltage drop is a much larger change proportionally, but I really don’t see the benefit from the expense and added installation difficulty of using larger-than-required wire for a 120VAC supply circuit.

according to the online calculator at http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm, which takes into account both resistance and reactance of the wire:

— for a 50 foot run of cable of #6 wire, at 20 amps and 120 volts AC single phase,  the total voltage drop will be 0.884 volt, or 0.74%, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 119.1 volts (rounding)
— for the same run with #12 wire, the total voltage drop will be 3.472 volts, or 2.90 percent, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 116.5 volts (rounding).

The 3.47 volt drop would be intolerable in a 12 volt circuit providing power directly to amateur radio equipment, but seems to me irrelevant if feeding a competently-designed power supply that reduces the 120 volts AC  supply to some lower voltage of DC supply. Any ham radio power supply that is specified to operate on 120 VAC should be able to operate without difficulty from a 116.5 volts supply.

So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire? While it seems to me to be to be harmless to “over-spec” the wire size, it also seems expensive and not necessary either per requirements of Section of 310-15 of the NEC or from a “good operating practices” perspective.

Lew N6LEW

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Kevin - K4VD <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The added cost of a 3x over-build seems like it would be awfully high. Is
> this good engineering practice (seriously, I don't know)?
>
> Kevin K4VD
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>> How do you define "necessary".
>>
>> Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>>
>> I agree...
>>
>> I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....  Often
>> the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
>> application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>>
>> For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x 4 from
>> the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
>> derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
>> demand...
>>
>> From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am using
>> 10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
>> terminals are rated for.
>>
>> From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>>
>> Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>>
>> ______________________
>> Clay Autery, KY5G
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> [phone]
>>
>> On 8/11/2016 10:43 AM, Ronnie Hull wrote:
>>> Is 10 gauge necessary?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
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Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put together will fall apart.





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[Clay Autery]

Well, again, you have to define terms...  "good engineering practice".
Depends on how you define good...

I am known far and wide for my incessant "over-engineering".  I don't
consider it over-engineering.  I am always considering additional
factors in my designs beyond IMMEDIATE cost.

Cost for upgrades, costs for repairs, value of my time if I have to
fix/rework, etc.

Bottom Line:  My stuff works, and my stuff seldom fails... virtually
NEVER due to my work.

Dad taught me a few things/principles...

1) Do it right the first time.
2) Buy the best tools/materials you can afford... If you can't afford to
buy them once, you surely can't afford to buy them again.

So... when I am pulling wire for sure... I try to over-build... I hate
crawling around in attics, etc...

In this instance...  the guy is doing a 20' power cable from his battery
to his radio....

I'd use way larger wire than 10 AWG... likely some welding wire with
nice oil/solvent resistant insulation...  I'd twist it because a
non-twisted 20 foot loop makes a fine antenna/radiator.
I'd put nice big copper crimp and solder lugs on the battery end and
adapt it down to the largest Powerpole that would still fit the radio.
I'd add supplemental screw terminals or something to the battery
terminals to facilitate adding the radio jumper...  and either include
and INLINE fuse mounted in the vehicle near the battery or inline on the
cable near the battery.

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 8/11/2016 1:12 PM, Kevin - K4VD wrote:

> The added cost of a 3x over-build seems like it would be awfully high.
> Is this good engineering practice (seriously, I don't know)?
>
> Kevin K4VD
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     How do you define "necessary".
>
>     Paraphrasing K9YC, Jim....  "Big wire is your friend".
>
>     I agree...
>
>     I typically use wire at least 2 sizes larger than "required"....
>     Often
>     the wire size is determined by how big of a wire I can FIT in the
>     application and how much money I can part with at the time.
>
>     For instance, on my current power project... I am running 6 AWG x
>     4 from
>     the service to the sub-panel @ 50 foot run for a 60 Amp separately
>     derived service where there'll never be more than about a 20 Amp total
>     demand...
>
>     From the sub-panel to the receptacles about 3-1/2 feet below, I am
>     using
>     10 AWG....  only because that's the largest wire the receptacle
>     terminals are rated for.
>
>     From the receptacles to all equipment, minimum 10 AWG...
>
>     Bigger and shorter the wire, the better...
>
>     ______________________
>     Clay Autery, KY5G
>     MONTAC Enterprises
>     [phone]
>

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[Matt Zilmer-3]

Was this a "shared neutral" type of problem?  I thought NEC ruled that
out in post-1979 wiring plans.

73,

matt W6NIA


On 8/11/2016 2:10 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

> In the late 1980’s, we had some cubicle wiring fires at HP Labs caused by computer power supplies. They had to replace all  the wiring with bigger conductors and connectors for the neutral. The same thing happened with Project Athena at MIT.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> [hidden email]
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/  (my blog)
>
>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 1:09 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu,8/11/2016 12:03 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
>>> So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire?
>> All the calculators assume sinusoidal current (i.e., a perfect 60 Hz sine wave). That's not the real world -- only un-controlled heating elements draw sine wave current. For at least the past 30+ years, electronic loads dominate, and the what's connected to the power line is a transformer-rectifier-capacitor power supply, and now usually as the input to an SMPS. The line current drawn by such a supply takes the form of short pulses at positive and negative peaks of the 60 Hz waveform, so both IR drop and dissipation is much greater than predicted by simple sine wave analysis. None of this is taken into account by NEC.
>>
>> Thus, it IS good engineering practice to oversize AC conductors.
>>
>> There's a tutorial discussion of this in
>>
>> http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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--
Always store beer in a dark place.  - R. Heinlein

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
[Shiraz]

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[Clay Autery]

You make a lot of assumptions there:

1) It is not a 50 foot run carrying 120...  It's a 50 foot 4 wire run
carrying 240 volts to the sub-panel from the service plus the neutral
and the green wire. Then a 6-gang box containing 8 x 120 and 4 x 220
receptacles wired independently.
2) IF some day I NEED 60 Amps, I will be able to get it because I BUILT
for it...  No climbing back into the attic.  No buying all new wire.  No
pulling new wire.
3) I don't pay retail.
4) There are other considerations other than cost and electrical....
there's RF radiation from and to the wire, etc.  Which is why the wire
is BOTH hand-twisted into pairs AND run in bonded flex-steel conduit.

IF I built for 20 amps now, and then later needed 20+ amps, I would have
to REBUILD...  my time is worth more than the cost differential.  I want
to TALK on the radio and build OTHER stuff... NOT do repeated upgrades
of my power infrastructure.

Bottom Line:  My stuff works and doesn't break.  I don't have to use my
time to do stuff twice.  And because I want to...  :-)

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 8/11/2016 2:03 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:

> At retail rates (e.g. price per foot from lower.com) #6 wire is 89 cents per foot, and #12 wire is 8.2 cents per foot;  assuming Clay’s 50 foot run and 3 wires for a 110 VAC circuit with ground, per NEC, the added cost for wire would be $121.20.  
>
> Is it “good engineering practice?”  It seems to be to be OK from an electrical standpoint, albeit unnecessary, and unnecessary from a cost standpoint, albeit not harmful.
>
>  I can certainly understand “over-specifying” wire size in a 12 volt circuit, and using larger wire size than is required simply from considering ampacity,  because the voltage drop is a much larger change proportionally, but I really don’t see the benefit from the expense and added installation difficulty of using larger-than-required wire for a 120VAC supply circuit.
>
> according to the online calculator at http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm, which takes into account both resistance and reactance of the wire:
>
> — for a 50 foot run of cable of #6 wire, at 20 amps and 120 volts AC single phase,  the total voltage drop will be 0.884 volt, or 0.74%, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 119.1 volts (rounding)
> — for the same run with #12 wire, the total voltage drop will be 3.472 volts, or 2.90 percent, for a net voltage at the end of the circuit of 116.5 volts (rounding).
>
> The 3.47 volt drop would be intolerable in a 12 volt circuit providing power directly to amateur radio equipment, but seems to me irrelevant if feeding a competently-designed power supply that reduces the 120 volts AC  supply to some lower voltage of DC supply. Any ham radio power supply that is specified to operate on 120 VAC should be able to operate without difficulty from a 116.5 volts supply.
>
> So, why go to the extra expense of #6 wire? While it seems to me to be to be harmless to “over-spec” the wire size, it also seems expensive and not necessary either per requirements of Section of 310-15 of the NEC or from a “good operating practices” perspective.
>
> Lew N6LEW

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[Clay Autery]

You are correct... it is new construction add-on to existing...

FYI, when using twisted-pair, each pair essentially functions as 4
parallel wires for cross-section...  So I had to upsize to 1" RWS FMC to
accomodate 2 x 6AWG twisted pairs and not violate the 40% fill limit.

Conduit is NOT required in my locale.  It is being used for shielding
only... although it is UL Listed and installed per code.

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
[phone]

On 8/11/2016 2:45 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
> Depends on the conduit size. Half inch conduit can only carry two #6 wires per NEC, but 3/4” conduit is OK for four #6 wires.
>
> But we weren’t talking here about pulling wire out of an existing conduit, I don’t think.. This was described as a new installation by a code-savvy op, who no doubt is using properly sized conduit..
>
> Lew N6LEW
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[Jim Brown-10]

There are several issues with shared neutrals, one of which is that
currents in single phase systems may not balance well. In the large
sound systems I designed, I always specified a home run of all three
conductors from each duplex that I distributed around a stage or worship
area to the panel. I specified 20A outlets and #12 conductors. The
intent was to allow portable gear at any of these locations to grab a
lot of power.

The far greater issue with "shared neutrals" is related to 3-phase
power, where, thanks to the harmonics present in distorted load
currents, triplen harmonics (harmonics divisible by 3)  add in the
neutral rather than cancel. This can result in neutral currents
significantly larger than the current in one phase, even when loads are
perfectly balanced. This is what overheated the wiring that started "The
Towering Inferno," and it was the burning insulation that propagated the
flames. That' why building codes were changed. :)

Few of us (none?) have 3-phase power in our homes, but most of us are
fed from one phase of 3-phase systems in the alley or on the street.
Those harmonics add in the "ground" for the same reasons that they add
in the neutral, and because most of us are fed by "high-leg Delta"
systems, we tend to see a lot of harmonic current on our grounds. THIS
is why we hear "buzz" (triplen harmonics of 60 Hz) in our systems due to
improper bonding rather than "hum" (pure 60 Hz).

There's an extensive discussion of this in several places on my website.
The most detailed is in the "White Paper" for audio/video professionals,
but it's also in the slide show for my talk on Power and Grounding for
Hams.  k9yc.com/publish.htm

73, Jim K9YC

On Thu,8/11/2016 2:18 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
> Was this a "shared neutral" type of problem?  I thought NEC ruled that
> out in post-1979 wiring plans.


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[Robin Moseley-2]

So off topic - why start this here at all?
there are loads of general radio groups, facebook groups etc..     this is
getting silly..

Robin G1MHU

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[kstover]

Don't forget the Oxygen impregnation and gold connectors.;-)


On 8/11/2016 12:56 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> No Rick, they have developed a new plating process [Cu on Cu] that
> makes 12 ga wire perform like 10 ga wire.  Now, if you wanted to use
> it for speaker wire, you would need yet another plating to prevent
> audio distortion and achieve the highest fidelity.  That makes it more
> expensive.
>
> At least that's what I saw on the Internet and you're not allowed to
> put anything on the Internet that isn't true ...
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> Sparks NV
> Washoe County DM09dn
>
> On 8/11/2016 8:21 AM, rick jones via Elecraft wrote:
>> I just bought 20' of what was supposed to be 10GA zip wire from that
>> auction site. It is clearly marked as "Audiopipe 10 Gauge speaker
>> cable". The conductor is actually 12GA at best. Is this becoming
>> common practice or is wire going the way of 2X4 lumber?
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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[Edward R Cole]

I have the resistance chart for various wire size but find that the
voltage drop is usually more than ohms law predicts so I go up one
size just for insurance.

I included 4-foot No.10 Red/Black zip wire (from Powerwerx) with each
of my 2M80 amplifiers which typically draw 15 amps key-down CW at 80w
RF output.  Ohms law predicts .00098*2*4*15 = 0.12 volt drop, but
generally saw about 0.3v drop (but I had another 6-foot of No. 10
from the PS to workshop power strip).

I'm wiring my new truck with No.8 awg from battery to distribution
strip in back seat of the crew cab.  Guessing the run will be at
least 16-foot.  Theory says .00063*2*16*30 = 0.6 volt drop at
30A.  Battery runs at 14.2 with engine running so that should get me
13.6v.  Engine off 13.8v will net 13.2 volts which will lower
amplifier gain a little.  Largest amp draws 25A for 160w output on
2m.  I have other equipment connected but only one will be in use at any time.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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[Edward R Cole]

Two more comments:
My station runs on an Astron 50M which I run about 14-foot of #4
welding wire to the master fuse (30A) and my power distribution
strips.  I see about 13.7v at the fuse.  My 150w 2m amp gets about
13.3v under load.

I ran about 35-feet of No.8-4 wire from my ac service to a 60A
breaker box which I have populated with 40A of breakers.  The nom
240vac drops less than a volt when I key down my 8877 at 1400w output
(DC load is 2500w).  I have 15A fuses in the 240v transformer primary
lines.  The Astron runs at 120vac from the same breaker box.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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[Elecraft mailing list]

Even planed lumber has changed.  WW2 era planed 2x4 was 2 3/4 x 1 3/4.  It changed sometime in the late 40s.  Renovators should be equipped with a tape and measure before buying lumber.

      From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:29 PM
 Subject: [Elecraft] Real 2" x 4" Lumber
   
Indeed the finished dimension of lumber HAS changed. Renovating the wood
frame home I owned in Chicago, built around the turn of the century,
after the Great Chicago Fire, I found REAL 2" x 4" and 2" x 6" lumber.

I also removed at least 100 ft of gas pipe used for lighting. When first
wired for electricity, wiring was run through those pipes and light
fixtures replaced the gas lights. Obviously, they were first
disconnected from the gas line, which was still used for heat. :)

Another thing that's changed is the sweet corn that we can buy in the
market -- it's now much sweeter with little real corn taste. As long as
I've been eating it, corn was always hybridized for taste, but it always
tasted like corn. What we get now is hybridized and genetically
engineered stuff that resists the chemicals used to kill weeds.  It 
looks like corn, but tastes like a sugar bowl.  Small farmers used to
harvest their own seeds to plant next year's crop, and to grow corn that
tasted the way they and their customers wanted. But when that chemical
resistant stuff was invented something like 10 years ago, Monsanto, the
big seed company that invented it, sued those farmers, claiming that
some of their patented stuff had cross-fertilized those corn plants, and
within a few years, that phony corn is all we can buy. I used to buy a
half dozen ears, steam them, and eat them for lunch. I haven't been able
to do that for years.

73, Jim K9YC

  On Thu,8/11/2016 9:17 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
> Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a piece of construction lumber
> is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The finished dimension is more
> like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.


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[Cortland Richmond-2]

On 8/11/2016 14:10, Walter Underwood wrote:
> In the late 1980?s, we had some cubicle wiring fires at HP Labs caused by computer power supplies. They had to replace

That's the famous power-factor- harmonics-in-the-neutral problem.  Got
some attention, that did;   electrical fire in a high-rise will do that.

Cortland Richmond

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[Jim Brown-10]

On Fri,8/12/2016 7:22 AM, Cortland Richmond wrote:
> That's the famous power-factor- harmonics-in-the-neutral problem.  Got
> some attention, that did; electrical fire in a high-rise will do that.

Yes. When I went through EE, power factor was the phase relationship
between V and I. After harmonics were recognized as a BIG DEAL, the
definition was expanded to include them.

73, Jim K9YC

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Folks, let's wind down and close this thread. We are at 14 posts on an OT thread
in a short time, well in excess of our list soft limit. As I noted earlier,
please keep these OT threads short and sweet.

While we do not prohibit OT topics, please self moderate as the primary focus of
this list is for Elecraft products and their use etc.  Excessive OT posts as we
have seen lately, will overload the majority of our readers who are focuses on
our products and their use etc.

73,
Eric
Moderator
/elecraft.com/


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[Phil Wheeler-2]

A fun retrospective, Jim -- except for the corn part!

Phil W7OX

On 8/11/16 10:29 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> Indeed the finished dimension of lumber HAS
> changed. Renovating the wood frame home I owned
> in Chicago, built around the turn of the
> century, after the Great Chicago Fire, I found
> REAL 2" x 4" and 2" x 6" lumber.
>
> I also removed at least 100 ft of gas pipe used
> for lighting. When first wired for electricity,
> wiring was run through those pipes and light
> fixtures replaced the gas lights. Obviously,
> they were first disconnected from the gas line,
> which was still used for heat. :)
>
> Another thing that's changed is the sweet corn
> that we can buy in the market -- it's now much
> sweeter with little real corn taste. As long as
> I've been eating it, corn was always hybridized
> for taste, but it always tasted like corn. What
> we get now is hybridized and genetically
> engineered stuff that resists the chemicals used
> to kill weeds.  It  looks like corn, but tastes
> like a sugar bowl.  Small farmers used to
> harvest their own seeds to plant next year's
> crop, and to grow corn that tasted the way they
> and their customers wanted. But when that
> chemical resistant stuff was invented something
> like 10 years ago, Monsanto, the big seed
> company that invented it, sued those farmers,
> claiming that some of their patented stuff had
> cross-fertilized those corn plants, and within a
> few years, that phony corn is all we can buy. I
> used to buy a half dozen ears, steam them, and
> eat them for lunch. I haven't been able to do
> that for years.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>  On Thu,8/11/2016 9:17 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>> Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a
>> piece of construction lumber
>> is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The
>> finished dimension is more
>> like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

And with that, let's close this thread. Its a bit too far OT.

Must be a slow HF propagation day! ;-)

73

Eric
Your moderator, really!
/elecraft.com/

On 8/12/2016 11:42 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote:

> A fun retrospective, Jim -- except for the corn part!
>
> Phil W7OX
>
> On 8/11/16 10:29 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> Indeed the finished dimension of lumber HAS changed. Renovating the wood
>> frame home I owned in Chicago, built around the turn of the century, after
>> the Great Chicago Fire, I found REAL 2" x 4" and 2" x 6" lumber.
>>
>> I also removed at least 100 ft of gas pipe used for lighting. When first
>> wired for electricity, wiring was run through those pipes and light fixtures
>> replaced the gas lights. Obviously, they were first disconnected from the gas
>> line, which was still used for heat. :)
>>
>> Another thing that's changed is the sweet corn that we can buy in the market
>> -- it's now much sweeter with little real corn taste. As long as I've been
>> eating it, corn was always hybridized for taste, but it always tasted like
>> corn. What we get now is hybridized and genetically engineered stuff that
>> resists the chemicals used to kill weeds.  It  looks like corn, but tastes
>> like a sugar bowl.  Small farmers used to harvest their own seeds to plant
>> next year's crop, and to grow corn that tasted the way they and their
>> customers wanted. But when that chemical resistant stuff was invented
>> something like 10 years ago, Monsanto, the big seed company that invented it,
>> sued those farmers, claiming that some of their patented stuff had
>> cross-fertilized those corn plants, and within a few years, that phony corn
>> is all we can buy. I used to buy a half dozen ears, steam them, and eat them
>> for lunch. I haven't been able to do that for years.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>  On Thu,8/11/2016 9:17 AM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote:
>>> Bad analogy.  The 2 X 4 inch measurement of a piece of construction lumber
>>> is before planning, or rough cut lumber.  The finished dimension is more
>>> like 3½ X 1½ which hasn't changed.
>
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>

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