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Older option boards from K3 upgrade

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michaelstringfellow

Older option boards from K3 upgrade

I successfully upgraded my late model K3 with the new synthesizer board
(KSYN3A) and KXV3B and have the removed boards with hardware. I guess
there may still be some demand for these - is this a good place to ask?

Mike
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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

I tossed my old synthesizers, in accordance with my dropping my old
closet hoarder policy of keeping any and all for 40 years to see if it
might be of any use. I actuarially doubt I will see another 40 years.

The synthesizer mod has met with such documented success, that I
routinely advise someone looking for a used K3 not to bother unless
the new synthesizer(s) are in it. Or to work a discount on any K3
without them to offset the cost of the synthesizer(s) to be done
immediately.

All this became apparent very early on after the new synthesizers were
introduced.

Anyone who is adding a KRX3 sub RX to a K3 which still has the old
Synth for the main RX, I tell them to do the synth mod right then,
because the easy time to do that is when the space for the sub RX is
not occupied.

A fully modded K3 is an awesome piece of used electronics, a very good
value. I have noted, watching eBay and sales via this reflector, that
compared to the overall K3 count of nearly 10,000, that only a small
percentage in the low single digits appear to have come up for sale
overall. These days you see one for sale every one or two weeks, which
goes quickly. 25 to 50 units for visible sale out of a universe of
10,000 is a tiny number less than 1%.

I'm sure there are more than that which trade privately. People sell
their K3's to friends and members of their own radio club.

I haven't done the new board that has the built-in sound card and USB
interface. That's because I already have all the stuff working and
debugged to do all those functions without that board, such as true
serial cards in my PC etc. If any of that stuff gets zinged (not
hoping for that), leaving others in a questionable state, I'll do a
wholesale switch to the USB upgrade and remove some number of cables.
Buying a K3S outright requires a financial negotiation with the war
dept, and is highly unlikely unless fire or lightning has turned my K3
into an insurance reimbursement.

In the meantime, my limiting factor is better 160m RX antennas to feed
the remarkable sound-stage diversity possible with the K3/K3S, made
even better with the new synthesizers.

All this contributes to the effectively zero value of the old synthesizers.

73, Guy K2AV

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Michael Stringfellow
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I successfully upgraded my late model K3 with the new synthesizer board
> (KSYN3A) and KXV3B and have the removed boards with hardware. I guess there
> may still be some demand for these - is this a good place to ask?
>
> Mike
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

I've seen these rave reviews about the new synthesizer many times. Has anyone
actually done an A/B comparison in real time with two otherwise identical radios.

I have a K3 with the original synthesizer (the actual one used to develop the
stiffener plate) and a K3S. I have not run them side-by-side since I don't have
any test equipment with sufficiently low phase noise to use. Anecdotally, using
them one at a time in day-to-day operation, I haven't noticed a difference.

Wes N7WS

On 4/25/2017 1:14 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

Don Wilhelm

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

Wes,

I know of no A/B comparisons, but the Sherwood chart shows a significant
improvement - he has rankings for the K3 with and without the new
synthesizer.

The lower phase noise may be apparent to you when picking a station out
of a pileup or on a contest weekend with many close-in signals.

The transmitted phase noise is also reduced, so your ham neighbors might
notice a difference in the width of your transmitted signal.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/25/2017 4:33 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

In reply to this post by Wes Stewart-2

Many times, with spectrum analyzer screen prints, etc. Some of those
in the near-astounding category.

At this point can't refer you to them but you can find them with some searching.

A 3 dB improvement in TX strength will not be noticed either, until it
is used in a situation where you're close to or in the noise.

Close neighbor hams with a sequence of installing the syns, and screen
prints in the reduction in phase noise sidebands for each step, and
noticeable improvement in interfering with one another. For me that
was the killer demo.

The "news" aspect of the syns is pretty well past, so don't see much
about it any more.

73, Guy

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've seen these rave reviews about the new synthesizer many times. Has
> anyone actually done an A/B comparison in real time with two otherwise
> identical radios.
>
> I have a K3 with the original synthesizer (the actual one used to develop
> the stiffener plate) and a K3S. I have not run them side-by-side since I
> don't have any test equipment with sufficiently low phase noise to use.
> Anecdotally, using them one at a time in day-to-day operation, I haven't
> noticed a difference.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
>
> On 4/25/2017 1:14 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>
>> I tossed my old synthesizers, in accordance with my dropping my old
>> closet hoarder policy of keeping any and all for 40 years to see if it
>> might be of any use. I actuarially doubt I will see another 40 years.
>>
>> The synthesizer mod has met with such documented success, that I
>> routinely advise someone looking for a used K3 not to bother unless
>> the new synthesizer(s) are in it. Or to work a discount on any K3
>> without them to offset the cost of the synthesizer(s) to be done
>> immediately.
>>
>> All this became apparent very early on after the new synthesizers were
>> introduced.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Wes Stewart-2

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Ok,

Since I'm the one in the pileups, don't contest and my line-of-sight contesting
neighbor runs an ICOM IC-756 PRO III to an ALPHA 8410 he deserves whatever he
gets:-)

Seriously, if I can figure a way, I'll try to do some real world comparisons.

Wes N7WS

On 4/25/2017 1:47 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Wes,
>
> I know of no A/B comparisons, but the Sherwood chart shows a significant
> improvement - he has rankings for the K3 with and without the new synthesizer.
>
> The lower phase noise may be apparent to you when picking a station out of a
> pileup or on a contest weekend with many close-in signals.
>
> The transmitted phase noise is also reduced, so your ham neighbors might
> notice a difference in the width of your transmitted signal.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/25/2017 4:33 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> I've seen these rave reviews about the new synthesizer many times. Has
>> anyone actually done an A/B comparison in real time with two otherwise
>> identical radios.
>>
>> I have a K3 with the original synthesizer (the actual one used to develop the
>> stiffener plate) and a K3S. I have not run them side-by-side since I don't
>> have any test equipment with sufficiently low phase noise to use.
>> Anecdotally, using them one at a time in day-to-day operation, I haven't
>> noticed a difference.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>

doberman

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

LOL - "line-of-site contesting neighbor" = whets his call sign??? :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wes Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:23 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Older option boards from K3 upgrade

Ok,

Since I'm the one in the pileups, don't contest and my line-of-sight contesting neighbor runs an ICOM IC-756 PRO III to an ALPHA 8410 he deserves whatever he
gets:-)

Seriously, if I can figure a way, I'll try to do some real world comparisons.

Wes N7WS

On 4/25/2017 1:47 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Wes,
>
> I know of no A/B comparisons, but the Sherwood chart shows a
> significant improvement - he has rankings for the K3 with and without the new synthesizer.
>
> The lower phase noise may be apparent to you when picking a station
> out of a pileup or on a contest weekend with many close-in signals.
>
> The transmitted phase noise is also reduced, so your ham neighbors
> might notice a difference in the width of your transmitted signal.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/25/2017 4:33 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> I've seen these rave reviews about the new synthesizer many times.
>> Has anyone actually done an A/B comparison in real time with two
>> otherwise identical radios.
>>
>> I have a K3 with the original synthesizer (the actual one used to
>> develop the stiffener plate) and a K3S. I have not run them
>> side-by-side since I don't have any test equipment with sufficiently low phase noise to use.
>> Anecdotally, using them one at a time in day-to-day operation, I
>> haven't noticed a difference.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Message delivered to [hidden email]

michaelstringfellow

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

Guy:

All noted. I just hate to trash perfectly good boards when there might
be someone who could use them.

Not everyone will need the latest KXV3 if they're not too bothered about
ten and six meters and it's possible someone could even use an old
synthesizer board. They are still installed in the majority of K3 rigs
out there and, as others note, work perfectly acceptably for most users.

Mike

On 4/25/2017 1:14 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> I tossed my old synthesizers, in accordance with my dropping my old
> closet hoarder policy of keeping any and all for 40 years to see if it
> might be of any use. I actuarially doubt I will see another 40 years.
>
> The synthesizer mod has met with such documented success, that I
> routinely advise someone looking for a used K3 not to bother unless
> the new synthesizer(s) are in it. Or to work a discount on any K3
> without them to offset the cost of the synthesizer(s) to be done
> immediately.
>
> All this became apparent very early on after the new synthesizers were
> introduced.
>
> Anyone who is adding a KRX3 sub RX to a K3 which still has the old
> Synth for the main RX, I tell them to do the synth mod right then,
> because the easy time to do that is when the space for the sub RX is
> not occupied.
>
> A fully modded K3 is an awesome piece of used electronics, a very good
> value. I have noted, watching eBay and sales via this reflector, that
> compared to the overall K3 count of nearly 10,000, that only a small
> percentage in the low single digits appear to have come up for sale
> overall. These days you see one for sale every one or two weeks, which
> goes quickly. 25 to 50 units for visible sale out of a universe of
> 10,000 is a tiny number less than 1%.
>
> I'm sure there are more than that which trade privately. People sell
> their K3's to friends and members of their own radio club.
>
> I haven't done the new board that has the built-in sound card and USB
> interface. That's because I already have all the stuff working and
> debugged to do all those functions without that board, such as true
> serial cards in my PC etc. If any of that stuff gets zinged (not
> hoping for that), leaving others in a questionable state, I'll do a
> wholesale switch to the USB upgrade and remove some number of cables.
> Buying a K3S outright requires a financial negotiation with the war
> dept, and is highly unlikely unless fire or lightning has turned my K3
> into an insurance reimbursement.
>
> In the meantime, my limiting factor is better 160m RX antennas to feed
> the remarkable sound-stage diversity possible with the K3/K3S, made
> even better with the new synthesizers.
>
> All this contributes to the effectively zero value of the old synthesizers.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Michael Stringfellow
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I successfully upgraded my late model K3 with the new synthesizer board
>> (KSYN3A) and KXV3B and have the removed boards with hardware. I guess there
>> may still be some demand for these - is this a good place to ask?
>>
>> Mike
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

Roger that. I missed the KXV3 in your post. I upgraded to KXV3B and
gave my now spare KXV3 to a friend filling out a K3 he picked up.
Friend had to pay for the shipping plus a cool one for the trouble of
going to the post office. :>)

Don't throw away the KXV3. Just throw away the Syn boards.

73, Guy K2AV.

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Michael Stringfellow
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Guy:
>
> All noted. I just hate to trash perfectly good boards when there might be
> someone who could use them.
>
> Not everyone will need the latest KXV3 if they're not too bothered about ten
> and six meters and it's possible someone could even use an old synthesizer
> board. They are still installed in the majority of K3 rigs out there and,
> as others note, work perfectly acceptably for most users.
>
> Mike

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

The improvement in QSK performance and elimination of jitter in CW timing was immediately noticeable even without an a/b test. Night and day.

Vic 4X6GP

> On 26 Apr 2017, at 0:06, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Many times, with spectrum analyzer screen prints, etc. Some of those
> in the near-astounding category.
>
> At this point can't refer you to them but you can find them with some searching.
>
> A 3 dB improvement in TX strength will not be noticed either, until it
> is used in a situation where you're close to or in the noise.
>
> Close neighbor hams with a sequence of installing the syns, and screen
> prints in the reduction in phase noise sidebands for each step, and
> noticeable improvement in interfering with one another. For me that
> was the killer demo.
>
> The "news" aspect of the syns is pretty well past, so don't see much
> about it any more.
>
> 73, Guy
>
>
>
>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've seen these rave reviews about the new synthesizer many times. Has
>> anyone actually done an A/B comparison in real time with two otherwise
>> identical radios.
>>
>> I have a K3 with the original synthesizer (the actual one used to develop
>> the stiffener plate) and a K3S. I have not run them side-by-side since I
>> don't have any test equipment with sufficiently low phase noise to use.
>> Anecdotally, using them one at a time in day-to-day operation, I haven't
>> noticed a difference.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>
>>> On 4/25/2017 1:14 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>>
>>> I tossed my old synthesizers, in accordance with my dropping my old
>>> closet hoarder policy of keeping any and all for 40 years to see if it
>>> might be of any use. I actuarially doubt I will see another 40 years.
>>>
>>> The synthesizer mod has met with such documented success, that I
>>> routinely advise someone looking for a used K3 not to bother unless
>>> the new synthesizer(s) are in it. Or to work a discount on any K3
>>> without them to offset the cost of the synthesizer(s) to be done
>>> immediately.
>>>
>>> All this became apparent very early on after the new synthesizers were
>>> introduced.
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: Older option boards from K3 upgrade

The second K3 listing from top on the Sherwood (old syns) vs the first
K3 listing from top (K3 modded with new syns) is as good an A/B RX
test as you will ever get. Note: there is a separate K3S listing.
Print out the first page of the Sherwood listing in landscape mode,
and then fold the paper to put the two listing lines next to one
another.

It is quite true that many typical and ordinary ham situations will
not demonstrate the difference, but weak signal work on any band,
those improvements will make a difference, because phase noise is not
additive, it modulates band noise. This will have more effect on
signals from low signal RX antennas that are not pre-amped.

My K3 with the new syns is better in sound stage diversity, but that
is in the brain and I don't know the mechanism for the improvement,
hence entirely subjective. I suspect something related to allowing
band noise to come through less modulated by phase noise, but
absolutely zero proof.

On a diversity sound stage, noise is scattered around the "horizon"
with some discrete noise taking fixed positions. The noise sounds less
"muddy" with new syns, that's as good as I can describe that.

I'm still trying to find a series of attachments showing a progression
of phase noise on steady TX carrier with one at a time syn changes
between two close K3 owners. I'm now thinking it was on one of those
Tiny URL kinds of things and perhaps not widely distributed. I don't
have email with attachments regarding that synthesizer test.

And I'm one of the worst at figuring out the secret word to pump a
google search.

And yes, the diff in CQ shaping was obvious in seconds after syn replacement.

There is some stuff on Elecraft's Nabble searchable list showing A/B keying.

73, Guy

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:20 AM, Vic Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The improvement in QSK performance and elimination of jitter in CW timing was immediately noticeable even without an a/b test. Night and day.
>
> Vic 4X6GP
>
>> On 26 Apr 2017, at 0:06, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Many times, with spectrum analyzer screen prints, etc. Some of those
>> in the near-astounding category.
>>
>> At this point can't refer you to them but you can find them with some searching.
>>
>> A 3 dB improvement in TX strength will not be noticed either, until it
>> is used in a situation where you're close to or in the noise.
>>
>> Close neighbor hams with a sequence of installing the syns, and screen
>> prints in the reduction in phase noise sidebands for each step, and
>> noticeable improvement in interfering with one another. For me that
>> was the killer demo.
>>
>> The "news" aspect of the syns is pretty well past, so don't see much
>> about it any more.
>>
>> 73, Guy
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I've seen these rave reviews about the new synthesizer many times. Has
>>> anyone actually done an A/B comparison in real time with two otherwise
>>> identical radios.
>>>
>>> I have a K3 with the original synthesizer (the actual one used to develop
>>> the stiffener plate) and a K3S. I have not run them side-by-side since I
>>> don't have any test equipment with sufficiently low phase noise to use.
>>> Anecdotally, using them one at a time in day-to-day operation, I haven't
>>> noticed a difference.
>>>
>>> Wes N7WS
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 4/25/2017 1:14 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I tossed my old synthesizers, in accordance with my dropping my old
>>>> closet hoarder policy of keeping any and all for 40 years to see if it
>>>> might be of any use. I actuarially doubt I will see another 40 years.
>>>>
>>>> The synthesizer mod has met with such documented success, that I
>>>> routinely advise someone looking for a used K3 not to bother unless
>>>> the new synthesizer(s) are in it. Or to work a discount on any K3
>>>> without them to offset the cost of the synthesizer(s) to be done
>>>> immediately.
>>>>
>>>> All this became apparent very early on after the new synthesizers were
>>>> introduced.
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]