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P3 0.050 Glitch?

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KD7PY

P3 0.050 Glitch?

I just downloaded the new software for the P3 & the K3 and everything went well..

I set the P3 to display S meter readings (not DBM) and I noticed something when I went to the 6 meter band.

I put a dummy load on the K3 and went through all the bands and set the REF LVL on the P3 so the base line is at S1
all went well till I got to the 6 meter band .
the Ref Lvl on the P3 is set to 125 on all bands untill I get to 6 meters.
now I have to set the Ref Lvl to 144 to get S1 to show at the bottom of the P3 and now the base line is at S5 and it should be down at S1 like all the other bands. this is with a dummy load attached right at the antenna connector of the K3......just switching between 10 & 6 meters its like there is too much output to the P3 when going to 6...
am I missing something?

Ed K7WIA

Alan Bloom-2

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

According to IARU Region 1 recommendation R.1, the standard for S9 on
frequencies below 30 MHz is -73 dBm but it is -93 dBm for frequencies
above 144 MHz. Unfortunately it doesn't say what to do about the 50 MHz
band, but Googling around on the Internet it appears that since 6 meters
is considered a "VHF" band, most people assume it should use the -93 dBm
figure. So that's what I went with in the P3.

Alan N1AL

On Thu, 2011-01-13 at 21:38 -0800, K7WIA wrote:

> I just downloaded the new software for the P3 & the K3 and everything went
> well..
>
> I set the P3 to display S meter readings (not DBM) and I noticed something
> when I went to the 6 meter band.
>
> I put a dummy load on the K3 and went through all the bands and set the REF
> LVL on the P3 so the base line is at S1
> all went well till I got to the 6 meter band .
> the Ref Lvl on the P3 is set to 125 on all bands untill I get to 6 meters.
> now I have to set the Ref Lvl to 144 to get S1 to show at the bottom of the
> P3 and now the base line is at S5 and it should be down at S1 like all the
> other bands. this is with a dummy load attached right at the antenna
> connector of the K3......just switching between 10 & 6 meters its like there
> is too much output to the P3 when going to 6...
> am I missing something?
>
> Ed K7WIA
>

KD7PY

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

Thanks Alan, that explains the error,

BUT without a antenna connected It should not show S5 when the K3's S meter just blinks once in a while.
I would sure like it to be set like it is on the HF bands. now when the antenna is connected, living in the city the base line will jump up 2 S units and be S7. and the S meter on the K3 will blink between S2 & S3
Could the 6 meter gain be incorprated thto the menu XV Gain (transverter Gain)
then we would have the choice between the 2 standard to use, as now most of us are still using 50 mv=S9
Ed

Guy, K2AV

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

Another reason to get rid of the arcane Sn system and use dBm. Now we're
asking Elecraft to referee an international "what is S9" issue? And asking
them to take sides and calling the difference an "error"? If they make it
the same as HF, we will likely hear from the other side.

What happens with the Yakencom 160-6 transceivers at 6m?

I'm finding on HF that the K3 operators are tending to calibrate their S
meters and the 5n9 cw reports are indicated by the display
segments reference to -73 dBm S9. G3PQA gave me a 579 on 160 last night and
from him I suspect that means between -85 and -79 dBm, and likely 12-18 dB
above S4 noise. He's on the reflector, so he'll have to verify.

The reverse beacon network gives signal to noise in dB at the reporting
site.

The sanity that ties all this together is thinking in dBm, not S units. S
units are worthless until they are tied to dBm.

73, Guy.

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:30 AM, K7WIA <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thanks Alan, that explains the error,
>
> BUT without a antenna connected It should not show S5 when the K3's S meter
> just blinks once in a while.
> I would sure like it to be set like it is on the HF bands. now when the
> antenna is connected, living in the city the base line will jump up 2 S
> units and be S7. and the S meter on the K3 will blink between S2 & S3
> Could the 6 meter gain be incorprated thto the menu XV Gain (transverter
> Gain)
> then we would have the choice between the 2 standard to use, as now most
> of us are still using 50 mv=S9
> Ed
> --
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Alan Bloom

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

In reply to this post by KD7PY

Hi Ed,

It probably does make sense to use -73 dBm on 6 meters, the same as the
HF bands, if for no other reason than to make it match the K3. I'll
change it in the next revision.

Alan

On Thu, 2011-01-13 at 22:30 -0800, K7WIA wrote:

> Thanks Alan, that explains the error,
>
> BUT without a antenna connected It should not show S5 when the K3's S meter
> just blinks once in a while.
> I would sure like it to be set like it is on the HF bands. now when the
> antenna is connected, living in the city the base line will jump up 2 S
> units and be S7. and the S meter on the K3 will blink between S2 & S3
> Could the 6 meter gain be incorprated thto the menu XV Gain (transverter
> Gain)
> then we would have the choice between the 2 standard to use, as now most
> of us are still using 50 mv=S9
> Ed

David Pratt

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

Would you confirm, please Alan, that -93dBm will continue to be used for
144 MHz when using the XV144 or K144XV ?

David G4DMP

In a recent message, Alan Bloom <[hidden email]> writes
>It probably does make sense to use -73 dBm on 6 meters, the same as the
>HF bands, if for no other reason than to make it match the K3. I'll
>change it in the next revision.
--
+ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +
| David M Pratt, Kippax, Leeds. |
| Website: http://www.g4dmp.co.uk |
+ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - +

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Dave Perry N4QS

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

Alan,

Yes, I think agree with using -73dBm on all bands 6M and below.

Dave, N4QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Bloom" <[hidden email]>
To: "K7WIA" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 0.050 Glitch?

> Hi Ed,
>
> It probably does make sense to use -73 dBm on 6 meters, the same as the
> HF bands, if for no other reason than to make it match the K3. I'll
> change it in the next revision.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Thu, 2011-01-13 at 22:30 -0800, K7WIA wrote:
>> Thanks Alan, that explains the error,
>>
>> BUT without a antenna connected It should not show S5 when the K3's S
>> meter
>> just blinks once in a while.
>> I would sure like it to be set like it is on the HF bands. now when the
>> antenna is connected, living in the city the base line will jump up 2 S
>> units and be S7. and the S meter on the K3 will blink between S2 & S3
>> Could the 6 meter gain be incorprated thto the menu XV Gain (transverter
>> Gain)
>> then we would have the choice between the 2 standard to use, as now
>> most
>> of us are still using 50 mv=S9
>> Ed
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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KD7PY

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

In reply to this post by David Pratt

when the K3 is set up to use the xverter bands the K3 will have to be set up to use what ever is decided to use (73dbm or 93dbm.) as the xverter IF will be on the 10 meter band, so when the K3 is using xverters the K3 will have to be set up on what ever xverter IF out put it uses to match the P3,
as now the 10 meter band uses -93 dbm as S9. that will have to change to -73 dbm when xverters are in use.....

Ed K7WIA

Alan Bloom

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

In reply to this post by David Pratt

Yes, that's correct.

On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 16:46 +0000, David Pratt wrote:
> Would you confirm, please Alan, that -93dBm will continue to be used for
> 144 MHz when using the XV144 or K144XV ?
>
> David G4DMP
>
> In a recent message, Alan Bloom <[hidden email]> writes
> >It probably does make sense to use -73 dBm on 6 meters, the same as the
> >HF bands, if for no other reason than to make it match the K3. I'll
> >change it in the next revision.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

On 1/14/2011 6:33 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> What happens with the Yakencom 160-6 transceivers at 6m?

More to the point, what happens on any band 10dB below S9? The rigs
I've measured with an HP generator have really lousy linearity,
typically 3dB per indicated S-unit below an indicated S6.

There are many components of a signal report, not the least of which is
the absolute gain of the RX antenna in the direction (both H and V) of
the other station. And how do you adjust for the use of a Beverage, and
of outboard preamps?

FWIW, I typically give reports by ear on the first exchange, but may
give a second report after watching the calibrated K3 meter on the
second transmission, sometimes switching from the Beverage to the TX
antenna for comparison.

If it's practical to do so, I would suggest an option .to allow
adjustment of S-meter (and/or P3) calibration by band to account for
external preamps other than the Elecraft preamp.

73, Jim K9YC
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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

Evening Jim,

The sad fact about this "S meter" business is that the SINFO (for CW) and
SINPFEMO (for phone) signal reporting codes were NOT intended to report
absolute signal strengths, but how well a signal was received and heard. I
believe that these codes mutated into the RS and RST reporting codes
sometime after someone realised that a meter connected to a receiver's AGC
line would "wiggle" as the received signal strength varied.

A "S meter" which shows the incoming signal level in dbm is, of course, very
useful when comparing antennas (the other guy's or yours) provided that its
calibration accounts for any preamps etc.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

Jim Brown wrote on Friday, January 14, 2011, at 18:50Z:

> More to the point, what happens on any band 10dB below S9? The rigs
> I've measured with an HP generator have really lousy linearity,
> typically 3dB per indicated S-unit below an indicated S6.
>
> There are many components of a signal report, not the least of which is
> the absolute gain of the RX antenna in the direction (both H and V) of
> the other station. And how do you adjust for the use of a Beverage, and
> of outboard preamps?
>
> FWIW, I typically give reports by ear on the first exchange, but may
> give a second report after watching the calibrated K3 meter on the
> second transmission, sometimes switching from the Beverage to the TX
> antenna for comparison.
>
> If it's practical to do so, I would suggest an option .to allow
> adjustment of S-meter (and/or P3) calibration by band to account for
> external preamps other than the Elecraft preamp.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

Bill K9YEQ

Re: P3 0.050 Glitch?

In reply to this post by Dave Perry N4QS

I use 120 ref lvl with a noise level of S3. It looks very good here. The
0nly thing I don't like is the scale which I was not able to adjust to 40 or
so over S9.

Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Perry
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 11:38 AM
To: [hidden email]; K7WIA
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 0.050 Glitch?

Alan,

Yes, I think agree with using -73dBm on all bands 6M and below.

Dave, N4QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Bloom" <[hidden email]>
To: "K7WIA" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 0.050 Glitch?

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