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P3: Span control logic

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Lu Romero - W4LT

P3: Span control logic

Hi all, especially the K3 Product Management folks:

I now have some time behind the combination K3-P3, It is a wonderful
combination. Like fishing with a fishfinder! Now my neighbor has definitive
proof in writing (a screen snapshot) that he is indeed 6.5kHz wide when he
cranks up that Macho Bass to impress his buddies on 14.250 :)

The P3 is a wonderful addition to my station's capability, however, there is
one ergonomic detail that drives me absolutely bonkers! I wonder if
something can be done about it, as I may not be the only one with this
issue.

SPAN is equivalent to WIDTH to me. On K3, turning the WIDTH knob to the
left (counter colockwise) makes the width of the bandpass NARROWER
(smaller). Turning the knob to the right (clockwise) makes the bandpass
WIDER. I have always loved how this works in this radio, it is logical and
intuitive to me, from my background in video... Video Production Switchers
(Vision Mixers for the Brits among us) Key Clip controls work this way, and
my feeble mind is used to this convention after many years of mental
conditioning. Equipment with similar controls (namely Yaesu rigs) are
backwards to me.

Having said that, on the P3, selecting SPAN and turning the knob to the left
(counter clockwise) makes the span NARROWER, and turning it to the right
(Clockwise) makes the span WIDER!

Yes, I know... The VISUAL FEEDBACK from the K3 control matches the screen of
the P3, which is good, but the INTENT of the action on the P3 SPAN control
does not! The WIDTH of the marker WIDENS when you turn the knob
counterclockwise, but the actual EFFECT of the action you are performing is
BACKWARDS from the visual feedback, and also backwards from the K3 control
that does the same thing!

Its like on a sailboat... Deflecting the rudder tiller AWAY from you turns
the nose of the boat in the OPPOSITE direction from the tiller deflection.

The chosen behavior of these controls and how they interact with the action
and visual feedback is just absolutely counter intuitive to me... Any hope
that this can be made a user selectable behavior so we can all have our cake
and eat it too?

Thanks for considering this request.

-lu-w4lt-
K3# 3192/P3 # 1301

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: P3: Span control logic

Lu,

I am sorry, but you will have to divorce your concept of width with the
SPAN of the P3. Instead of looking at the width of the signal, look at
the range of the display - that is what SPAN has meant for many years to
those familiar with spectrum analyzers - it is the difference between
the frequency on the left of the screen and that on the right of the screen.

Yes, the width of the signal being observed will shrink as the span is
increased. The SPAN term has no relationship to the width of any
particular signal, it is only the extent of the display frequencies on
the screen.

Alan, please do not change it - it makes sense to many (hopefully most)
of us.

Lu, you may want to think of SPAN as the opposite of WIDTH. I hope that
helps..

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2011 6:34 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote:

> Hi all, especially the K3 Product Management folks:
>
> I now have some time behind the combination K3-P3, It is a wonderful
> combination. Like fishing with a fishfinder! Now my neighbor has definitive
> proof in writing (a screen snapshot) that he is indeed 6.5kHz wide when he
> cranks up that Macho Bass to impress his buddies on 14.250 :)
>
> The P3 is a wonderful addition to my station's capability, however, there is
> one ergonomic detail that drives me absolutely bonkers! I wonder if
> something can be done about it, as I may not be the only one with this
> issue.
>
> SPAN is equivalent to WIDTH to me. On K3, turning the WIDTH knob to the
> left (counter colockwise) makes the width of the bandpass NARROWER
> (smaller). Turning the knob to the right (clockwise) makes the bandpass
> WIDER. I have always loved how this works in this radio, it is logical and
> intuitive to me, from my background in video... Video Production Switchers
> (Vision Mixers for the Brits among us) Key Clip controls work this way, and
> my feeble mind is used to this convention after many years of mental
> conditioning. Equipment with similar controls (namely Yaesu rigs) are
> backwards to me.
>
> Having said that, on the P3, selecting SPAN and turning the knob to the left
> (counter clockwise) makes the span NARROWER, and turning it to the right
> (Clockwise) makes the span WIDER!
>
> Yes, I know... The VISUAL FEEDBACK from the K3 control matches the screen of
> the P3, which is good, but the INTENT of the action on the P3 SPAN control
> does not! The WIDTH of the marker WIDENS when you turn the knob
> counterclockwise, but the actual EFFECT of the action you are performing is
> BACKWARDS from the visual feedback, and also backwards from the K3 control
> that does the same thing!
>
> Its like on a sailboat... Deflecting the rudder tiller AWAY from you turns
> the nose of the boat in the OPPOSITE direction from the tiller deflection.
>
> The chosen behavior of these controls and how they interact with the action
> and visual feedback is just absolutely counter intuitive to me... Any hope
> that this can be made a user selectable behavior so we can all have our cake
> and eat it too?
>
> Thanks for considering this request.
>
> -lu-w4lt-
> K3# 3192/P3 # 1301
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Bruce Beford-2

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

I agree with Don on this function.

SPAN on the P3 is (and should be) the SPAN or width of the -total spectrum
displayed-. It is not the APPARENT width of a given signal. This is as it
should be. I am perfectly comfortable with it in it's current
implementation.

73,

Bruce, N1RX

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k5oai

Re: P3: Span control logic

I like it the way it is also

but to be fair about this....
Luis's request was that:
<quote>
Any hope that this can be made a
*user* *selectable* *behavior*
so we can all have our cake and eat it too?
</quote>

not that it be changed forcing everyone to do it his way.....

GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 8/7/2011 6:27 PM, Bruce Beford wrote:
> I agree with Don on this function.
> SPAN on the P3 is (and should be) the SPAN or width of the -total spectrum
> displayed-. It is not the APPARENT width of a given signal. This is as it
> should be. I am perfectly comfortable with it in it's current
> implementation.
> 73,
>
> Bruce, N1RX

On 8/7/2011 6:17 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Alan, please do not change it - it makes sense to many (hopefully most)
> of us.
>

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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don:

Do you understand TV waveform monitors? When you look at a NTSC transmitter
output waveform, the white level is on top and the sync tip is at the
bottom. This is upside down, as the sync tip is peak transmitter modulation
and white is low modulation. But the graphical representation was designed
for a USER, who is tasked with adjusting levels on a camera, and not a
transmitter, and it is easier, logically, to deal with the adjustments when
white is at the TOP of the graphical representation instead of the bottom.

I am quite familiar with spectrum analysers. And I can understand the issue
you raise, because in spectrum analysers, yes, SPAN functionality as its
illustrated on the P3 makes sense... within the context of a spectrum
analyser! Yes, I understand what SPAN is; and if the unit was a actual stand
alone "spectrum analyser" lab instrument, you would be completely accurate
logically, because it wouldnt have the width control on the K3 to clash
with. But its not a spectrum analyser lab instrument, it is a "receiver
accesory" with a "graphical display" of the K3 signal reception conditions.

We are showing the WIDTH of the filter in the picture representation of the
K3 filter WIDTH. And it makes sense in the graphical representation of the
action because as you turn the knob to widen the bandwdth, the picture
"icon" widens.

This behavior then clashes with the SPAN control, which shows a graphical
representation of the WIDTH of the scan. Using the original logic as
defined in the K3 WIDTH control, it is backwards from the established
control logic of the K3 width control.

It wont make me lose sleep, and I may ultimately adjust, but I am simply
stating the clash of the control's behavior as applied to the usage of the
instrument for its intended purpose. Since the logic of what we are doing
here is to show the WIDTH of the spectrum we are displaying, the logic fails
because when we turn to the left, it gets bigger and when we turn to the
right it gets smaller, and, the following is important, it does this against
the convention set by the K3 width control.

However, if the width control worked like it works on Yaesu equipment, there
would be no clash. I remember a similar discussion about the K3 Width
control on the reflector a few years back and all the angst because it
worked "backwards". Simply stated; Product Management needs to choose a
standard and stick with it across the product for the sake of the user!

So, taking into account the K3 width control's logic, what's wrong with the
option to make it either way, via a menu setting, other than time and
resources?

Do other minds think like mine?

-lu-w4lt-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 7:17 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: Span control logic
>
> Lu,
>
> I am sorry, but you will have to divorce your concept of
> width with the SPAN of the P3. Instead of looking at the
> width of the signal, look at the range of the display - that
> is what SPAN has meant for many years to those familiar with
> spectrum analyzers - it is the difference between the
> frequency on the left of the screen and that on the right of
> the screen.
>
> Yes, the width of the signal being observed will shrink as
> the span is increased. The SPAN term has no relationship to
> the width of any particular signal, it is only the extent of
> the display frequencies on the screen.
>
> Alan, please do not change it - it makes sense to many
> (hopefully most) of us.
>
> Lu, you may want to think of SPAN as the opposite of WIDTH.
> I hope that helps..
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/7/2011 6:34 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote:
> > Hi all, especially the K3 Product Management folks:
> >
> > I now have some time behind the combination K3-P3, It is a
> wonderful
> > combination. Like fishing with a fishfinder! Now my neighbor has
> > definitive proof in writing (a screen snapshot) that he is indeed
> > 6.5kHz wide when he cranks up that Macho Bass to impress
> his buddies
> > on 14.250 :)
> >
> > The P3 is a wonderful addition to my station's capability, however,
> > there is one ergonomic detail that drives me absolutely bonkers! I
> > wonder if something can be done about it, as I may not be
> the only one
> > with this issue.
> >
> > SPAN is equivalent to WIDTH to me. On K3, turning the
> WIDTH knob to
> > the left (counter colockwise) makes the width of the
> bandpass NARROWER
> > (smaller). Turning the knob to the right (clockwise) makes the
> > bandpass WIDER. I have always loved how this works in this
> radio, it
> > is logical and intuitive to me, from my background in
> video... Video
> > Production Switchers (Vision Mixers for the Brits among us)
> Key Clip
> > controls work this way, and my feeble mind is used to this
> convention
> > after many years of mental conditioning. Equipment with similar
> > controls (namely Yaesu rigs) are backwards to me.
> >
> > Having said that, on the P3, selecting SPAN and turning the knob to
> > the left (counter clockwise) makes the span NARROWER, and
> turning it
> > to the right
> > (Clockwise) makes the span WIDER!
> >
> > Yes, I know... The VISUAL FEEDBACK from the K3 control matches the
> > screen of the P3, which is good, but the INTENT of the
> action on the
> > P3 SPAN control does not! The WIDTH of the marker WIDENS when you
> > turn the knob counterclockwise, but the actual EFFECT of the action
> > you are performing is BACKWARDS from the visual feedback, and also
> > backwards from the K3 control that does the same thing!
> >
> > Its like on a sailboat... Deflecting the rudder tiller AWAY
> from you
> > turns the nose of the boat in the OPPOSITE direction from
> the tiller deflection.
> >
> > The chosen behavior of these controls and how they interact
> with the
> > action and visual feedback is just absolutely counter intuitive to
> > me... Any hope that this can be made a user selectable
> behavior so we
> > can all have our cake and eat it too?
> >
> > Thanks for considering this request.
> >
> > -lu-w4lt-
> > K3# 3192/P3 # 1301
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support
> this email
> > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >

k5oai

Re: P3: Span control logic

I see no conflict
for a *FILTER* knob
if turned to the right (clockwise) towards the plus sign
the filter widens (as indicated by the display on the radio)

for the *SPAN* located on the P3
after the Span button is tapped
the the P3's knob
if turned to the right (clockwise) the span widens/increases

the discrepancy
is within your head and how *you* choose
to interpret what the knob should be referencing to
the entire display (frequency span)
or
the tiny little parts of the display
that represent the filter widths
within the entire display

apples and oranges

GB & 73
K5OAI
Sam Morgan

On 8/7/2011 8:02 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

Sorry, Lu ...

> I am quite familiar with spectrum analysers. And I can understand
> the issue you raise, because in spectrum analysers, yes, SPAN
> functionality as its illustrated on the P3 makes sense... within the
> context of a spectrum analyser!

The P3 - or any panadapter - is precisely a spectrum analyzer. The
span control has no relationship to the K3's "width" control (but
I would have preferred the K3 "Width" control to have been labeled
"selectivity" and worked backward <G>).

> So, taking into account the K3 width control's logic, what's wrong
> with the option to make it either way, via a menu setting, other than
> time and resources?

Only if you're going to provide an option to reverse the sense of the
"Width" control as well <G>.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/7/2011 9:02 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote:

> Don:
>
> Do you understand TV waveform monitors? When you look at a NTSC transmitter
> output waveform, the white level is on top and the sync tip is at the
> bottom. This is upside down, as the sync tip is peak transmitter modulation
> and white is low modulation. But the graphical representation was designed
> for a USER, who is tasked with adjusting levels on a camera, and not a
> transmitter, and it is easier, logically, to deal with the adjustments when
> white is at the TOP of the graphical representation instead of the bottom.
>
> I am quite familiar with spectrum analysers. And I can understand the issue
> you raise, because in spectrum analysers, yes, SPAN functionality as its
> illustrated on the P3 makes sense... within the context of a spectrum
> analyser! Yes, I understand what SPAN is; and if the unit was a actual stand
> alone "spectrum analyser" lab instrument, you would be completely accurate
> logically, because it wouldnt have the width control on the K3 to clash
> with. But its not a spectrum analyser lab instrument, it is a "receiver
> accesory" with a "graphical display" of the K3 signal reception conditions.
>
> We are showing the WIDTH of the filter in the picture representation of the
> K3 filter WIDTH. And it makes sense in the graphical representation of the
> action because as you turn the knob to widen the bandwdth, the picture
> "icon" widens.
>
> This behavior then clashes with the SPAN control, which shows a graphical
> representation of the WIDTH of the scan. Using the original logic as
> defined in the K3 WIDTH control, it is backwards from the established
> control logic of the K3 width control.
>
> It wont make me lose sleep, and I may ultimately adjust, but I am simply
> stating the clash of the control's behavior as applied to the usage of the
> instrument for its intended purpose. Since the logic of what we are doing
> here is to show the WIDTH of the spectrum we are displaying, the logic fails
> because when we turn to the left, it gets bigger and when we turn to the
> right it gets smaller, and, the following is important, it does this against
> the convention set by the K3 width control.
>
> However, if the width control worked like it works on Yaesu equipment, there
> would be no clash. I remember a similar discussion about the K3 Width
> control on the reflector a few years back and all the angst because it
> worked "backwards". Simply stated; Product Management needs to choose a
> standard and stick with it across the product for the sake of the user!
>
> So, taking into account the K3 width control's logic, what's wrong with the
> option to make it either way, via a menu setting, other than time and
> resources?
>
> Do other minds think like mine?
>
> -lu-w4lt-
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 7:17 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: Span control logic
>>
>> Lu,
>>
>> I am sorry, but you will have to divorce your concept of
>> width with the SPAN of the P3. Instead of looking at the
>> width of the signal, look at the range of the display - that
>> is what SPAN has meant for many years to those familiar with
>> spectrum analyzers - it is the difference between the
>> frequency on the left of the screen and that on the right of
>> the screen.
>>
>> Yes, the width of the signal being observed will shrink as
>> the span is increased. The SPAN term has no relationship to
>> the width of any particular signal, it is only the extent of
>> the display frequencies on the screen.
>>
>> Alan, please do not change it - it makes sense to many
>> (hopefully most) of us.
>>
>> Lu, you may want to think of SPAN as the opposite of WIDTH.
>> I hope that helps..
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 8/7/2011 6:34 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote:
>>> Hi all, especially the K3 Product Management folks:
>>>
>>> I now have some time behind the combination K3-P3, It is a
>> wonderful
>>> combination. Like fishing with a fishfinder! Now my neighbor has
>>> definitive proof in writing (a screen snapshot) that he is indeed
>>> 6.5kHz wide when he cranks up that Macho Bass to impress
>> his buddies
>>> on 14.250 :)
>>>
>>> The P3 is a wonderful addition to my station's capability, however,
>>> there is one ergonomic detail that drives me absolutely bonkers! I
>>> wonder if something can be done about it, as I may not be
>> the only one
>>> with this issue.
>>>
>>> SPAN is equivalent to WIDTH to me. On K3, turning the
>> WIDTH knob to
>>> the left (counter colockwise) makes the width of the
>> bandpass NARROWER
>>> (smaller). Turning the knob to the right (clockwise) makes the
>>> bandpass WIDER. I have always loved how this works in this
>> radio, it
>>> is logical and intuitive to me, from my background in
>> video... Video
>>> Production Switchers (Vision Mixers for the Brits among us)
>> Key Clip
>>> controls work this way, and my feeble mind is used to this
>> convention
>>> after many years of mental conditioning. Equipment with similar
>>> controls (namely Yaesu rigs) are backwards to me.
>>>
>>> Having said that, on the P3, selecting SPAN and turning the knob to
>>> the left (counter clockwise) makes the span NARROWER, and
>> turning it
>>> to the right
>>> (Clockwise) makes the span WIDER!
>>>
>>> Yes, I know... The VISUAL FEEDBACK from the K3 control matches the
>>> screen of the P3, which is good, but the INTENT of the
>> action on the
>>> P3 SPAN control does not! The WIDTH of the marker WIDENS when you
>>> turn the knob counterclockwise, but the actual EFFECT of the action
>>> you are performing is BACKWARDS from the visual feedback, and also
>>> backwards from the K3 control that does the same thing!
>>>
>>> Its like on a sailboat... Deflecting the rudder tiller AWAY
>> from you
>>> turns the nose of the boat in the OPPOSITE direction from
>> the tiller deflection.
>>>
>>> The chosen behavior of these controls and how they interact
>> with the
>>> action and visual feedback is just absolutely counter intuitive to
>>> me... Any hope that this can be made a user selectable
>> behavior so we
>>> can all have our cake and eat it too?
>>>
>>> Thanks for considering this request.
>>>
>>> -lu-w4lt-
>>> K3# 3192/P3 # 1301
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support
>> this email
>>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

W2RU - Bud Hippisley

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by k5oai

On Aug 7, 2011, at 9:30 PM, Sam Morgan wrote:

> I see no conflict
> for a *FILTER* knob
> if turned to the right (clockwise) towards the plus sign
> the filter widens (as indicated by the display on the radio)

No, no, no...every filter control I've ever used (until the K3) narrowed the filter bandwidth as the knob was rotated clockwise. Hallicrafters, Collins, Kenwood, etc. That's the one control I am still having trouble with on the K3. It is bass-ackward from anything else. Heck, when I put a lid on a jar, I turn it clockwise to screw it down tighter -- like tightening the bandwidth.

Of course, if you're too young to have used any other radio gear, or if your mother always opened the jars for you, I can understand why you might feel as you do.

Bud, W2RU
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Merv Schweigert

Re: P3: Span control logic

Not true at all, I have a FT-1000D sitting here and the shift and width
control both operate
the same direction as the K3. Counterclockwise. 75A4 switch works
counterclockwise
also, left to narrow. That covers quite a span of years.
Merv K9FD/KH6
> No, no, no...every filter control I've ever used (until the K3) narrowed the filter bandwidth as the knob was rotated clockwise. Hallicrafters, Collins, Kenwood, etc. That's the one control I am still having trouble with on the K3. It is bass-ackward from anything else. Heck, when I put a lid on a jar, I turn it clockwise to screw it down tighter -- like tightening the bandwidth.
>
> Of course, if you're too young to have used any other radio gear, or if your mother always opened the jars for you, I can understand why you might feel as you do.
>
> Bud, W2RU
> ______________________________________________________________
>

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Bob-270

Re: P3: Span control logic

Kenwood? On the TS-930 clockwise is widest in CW, counter clockwise narrows.
In this case I think it is just as logical to state that, just as I reduce the
volume by going counterclockwise I also reduce the bandwidth by going
counterclockwise.

Neither way is right or wrong it is just a learned preference.

I open my own jars and my first radios only had barn door wide for bandwidth.

73,
Bob
K2TK ex KN2TKR (1956) & K2TKR

No, no, no...every filter control I've ever used (until the K3) narrowed the filter bandwidth as the knob was rotated clockwise. Hallicrafters, Collins, Kenwood, etc. That's the one control I am still having trouble with on the K3. It is bass-ackward from anything else. Heck, when I put a lid on a jar, I turn it clockwise to screw it down tighter -- like tightening the bandwidth.

Of course, if you're too young to have used any other radio gear, or if your mother always opened the jars for you, I can understand why you might feel as you do.

Bud, W2RU
______________________________________________________________

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W2RU - Bud Hippisley

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Merv Schweigert

On Aug 8, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote:

> Not true at all, I have a FT-1000D sitting here and the shift and width
> control both operate
> the same direction as the K3.

YOU may have an FT-1000D sitting there, but I don't. What I said pertained to ME and the rigs I named, and was QUITE true. But your example helps me make the point I was originally trying to make. Read on.

> 75A4 switch works
> counterclockwise
> also, left to narrow.

The 75A-4 worked whichever way you chose to install the mechanical filters, so it was akin to the suggestion that the direction of WIDTH control knob rotation on the K3 be user-selectable. One could just as easily put the narrowest filter in the MIDDLE position in the 75A-4. And it is "the exception that proves the rule" in a long line of fine receivers. Both earlier and later Collins receivers (such as the 75A-2 and the 75S-3) very definitely narrowed the bandwidth with clockwise rotation. Even in the 75S-3B/C (which also had user-fillable mechanical filter slots) the narrower CW filter positions were clockwise from the wider SSB and AM positions.

But your FT-1000D brings me back to my original point: Each of us individually arrives at the K3 with a unique set of life experiences. You're comfortable with the rotation vs. action of the K3 WIDTH knob, and I'm not.

>From a purely logical point of view, the operation of the WIDTH control on the K3 is consistent with other K3 controls such as AF GAIN and keyer SPEED. I doubt any of us would be happy with a backwards speed control. (I can say that because I once owned one, and everyone who tried it hated it!)

Self-consistent operation of the controls is a nice objective, and quite appropriate to test equipment, but it can bite us in a fast-paced, real-time operating event such as a contest when it's contrary to habits we have formed or is the opposite of what goes on in the second rig of an SO2R setup. My own view is that -- regardless of the habits you or I may have formed or the rigs we may have been used to in the past -- the K3's WIDTH knob is fundamentally counterintuitive because historically I've never heard anyone say they were "dialing in bandwidth" -- the hams I've been around have always dialed in "more selectivity" on an "as needed" basis. In fact, our lingo is replete with references to "cranking in" selectivity or narrower filters. The analogy to mechanical cranks is clear and long-standing, and I know of no mechanical cranks that perform their primary function by having their handles turned counter-clockwise. That's the REAL source of my difficulty with the K3 W
IDTH control. In effect, it's a cultural pre-conditioning that goes beyond the rigs I have or have not had the opportunity to use.

So, from my point of view, the WIDTH knob would be better named the SELECTIVITY knob or the FILTERING knob or the NARROWING knob, and it would have the opposite action with clockwise rotation as it does today. But all those names are far too long for a front panel as small as the K3's. Besides, during a contest, when it matters, I don't look at the names over the knobs or at the little displays that show the bandwidth increasing or decreasing, either. I just try to make contacts as fast as possible. For that, I agree with the person who said it would be really nice if the function of the WIDTH knob was user-selectable.

Bud, W2RU

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George Danner

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Lu,
I might tend to agree with you had the P3 control been labeled "WIDTH"!
But it is labeled SPAN.

SPAN on a spectrum analyzer or a spectrum monitor (as used in satellite
up/down links or on audio consoles) works just as the P3's control works.
The P3 is more of a kin to a spectrum monitor but they are all in the same
family.

For those of us that have used spectrum analyzers & spectrum monitors for a
whole career - making a control labeled SPAN work backwards is "just
wrong" - Hi Hi

George
AI4VZ

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DaveL G3TJP

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

I don't know what has conditioned me over the last 50+ years, but know that
when I reach for the "Width" knob, invariably I turn it in the wrong
direction. My P3 is yet to get any serious use as yet, so I can't comment
on that.

If a choice of direction of rotation could be made available, I'd love to
have the "Width" control to go t'other way. I don't have a problem with any
other control on the K3.

Wasn't this was a topic that died fairly quickly a year or two back? I
doubt that it was added to the bottom of any of the "to do" lists then, so I
won't hold my breath now.

73 Dave G3TJP

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Jack West

Re: P3: Span control logic

Hi All,

I have the same problem...turn it the wrong way every time.
73 de
Jack / W7LD / "Lucky Dog"

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Lankshear" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: Span control logic

>I don't know what has conditioned me over the last 50+ years, but know that
> when I reach for the "Width" knob, invariably I turn it in the wrong
> direction. My P3 is yet to get any serious use as yet, so I can't comment
> on that.
>
>
>
> If a choice of direction of rotation could be made available, I'd love to
> have the "Width" control to go t'other way. I don't have a problem with any
> other control on the K3.
>
>
>
> Wasn't this was a topic that died fairly quickly a year or two back? I
> doubt that it was added to the bottom of any of the "to do" lists then, so I
> won't hold my breath now.
>
>
>
> 73 Dave G3TJP
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: P3: Span control logic [END of Thread]

Administrator

folks - Let's end this thread. No need to argue it out further on the
reflector.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft list moderator

---
www.elecraft.com

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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: P3: Span control logic

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

I have a feeling that I have discovered a container of grubs
with this post.... I guess Don might be right... I should
divorce myself from thinking that Width=Span...

I agree with Joe-W4TV, et. al. regarding the relabeling of
the WIDTH knob to SELECTIVITY. The front panel is already
made... So that cant be changed. But the action is in
SOFTWARE... Can *THAT* be changed?

What is interesting is that I *LIKE* the "backward" action
of the width knob, several others do not... And I agree with
several posters that claim its the way I was "conditioned"
in my sordid past...

And I also agree that the SPAN works the way it works on a
Spectrum Analyzer... But Im not using a Spectrum Analyzer,
Im using a receiver that shows a snapshot of the area of
spectrum it is receiving (yes, that *is* the definition of a
SA...) But you all that have lived with SA's for your whole
careers (Im not a transmitter guy, Im a Post Production guy,
but I had to survive in Transmitter land for a few years)
have an predisposition to look at the P3 as a Spectrum
Analyser (it quacks like the same duck...), and I dont, so
we will agree to disagree on what this tool actually *is* to
a non SA conditioned user.

I can get used to anything, Im easy! But would it be so
gosh danged hard to give us the option of having either
knoob work it either way? Isnt this the "beauty" of
software defined radios?

Burger King tells me that I can "have it my way" as opposed
to McDonalds, where you get it *THEIR* way. Now, I dont eat
any of that crap anymore, but when I did, my burger choice
was always Burger King, because I could hold the pickle and
hold the lettuce, and at McDonald's special orders *ALWAYS*
upset 'em...

The world will not collapse because these knobs dont work
the way all of us want them to, and all of us will adapt one
way or another. I was just making a point that, gee,
wouldnt it be nice for ALL of us to have it *OUR* way?

If its not possible, or if resources and time are such that
it gets put on the low end of the development schedule, so
be it... But I feel good knowing the fact that Im not the
only user of this rig with a brain that came from the jar
with a label that said it belonged to Abby Normal; it would
be a "nice to have" thing. I dont think it is as important
to me as it was for the guy who hacked the radio's volume
pots to change what pot did what because he didnt like the
concentric volume pots the rig was designed with.

And while I could dive into my P3, X-Acto knife and
soldering iron in hand, and fix this myself (and screw up
every *OTHER* logical movement of that control), if it could
be done in a menu si I could choose, life would be so much
nicer for all of us, wouldnt it?

The problem then becomes: Where do we draw the line for
what can be customized and what cant? That is Product
Management's dilema, and not ours.

-lu-w4lt
K3 #3192/P3 # 1301

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