P3 Unexpected Control Operation ...

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

Rotary controls in the K3 and P3 increase their parameter as the
encoder is turned clockwise except in two cases.

1) The P3 "REF LVL" is decreased with clockwise rotation.  Maximum
    reference level is -10 dBm with the encoder fully counterclockwise
    while it is minimum -160 dBm with the encoder fully clockwise.

2) The P3 "SCALE" (range) is decreased with clockwise rotation.
    Scale is minimum (10 dB) when the encoder is fully clockwise
    and maximum (80 dB) when the encoder is fully counterclockwise.

Both of these controls violate the principle of "expected" behavior
and consistent operation.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV
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[Bill W4ZV]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote

Rotary controls in the K3 and P3 increase their parameter as the
encoder is turned clockwise except in two cases.

1) The P3 "REF LVL" is decreased with clockwise rotation.  Maximum
    reference level is -10 dBm with the encoder fully counterclockwise
    while it is minimum -160 dBm with the encoder fully clockwise.

2) The P3 "SCALE" (range) is decreased with clockwise rotation.
    Scale is minimum (10 dB) when the encoder is fully clockwise
    and maximum (80 dB) when the encoder is fully counterclockwise.

Both of these controls violate the principle of "expected" behavior
and consistent operation.

Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.  Both are consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction, which is consistent in my opinion.  In the case of REF LVL, turning clockwise until the noise floor becomes visible seems correct (i.e. like turning RF GAIN clockwise in a traditional radio).  In the case of SCALE, it means less visible range above the noise floor which means more resolution of weak signals.

After using the P3 I find the current conventions intuitive.  While they might not be technically consistent (in terms of the values being set) I believe both are consistent and intuitive in terms of practical use.  We need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used for measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a panadapter (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise floor).  Either *can* be used the other way around, but I believe the controls of both are set up differently for good reasons.

73,  Bill

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

Bill,

 > Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.
 > Both are consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction,
 > which is consistent in my opinion.

While both controls, in fact, increase a behavioral parameter with
clockwise rotation, the behavior is still inconsistent with other
controls on both the K3 and P3.  If the controls were arranged to
adjust an underlying behavioral parameter instead of an absolute
value, the WIDTH control on the K3 should be reversed so that it
increases SELECTIVITY (less width) with increasing clockwise
rotation.

 > We need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used
 > for measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a
 > panadapter (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise
 > floor).

I don't see how this makes any difference.  The P3 controls are labeled
REF LVL and SCALE and not "MIN/MAX SENSITIVITY" and the values they
control have specific numeric values.  Their behavior is backward based
on both the numeric values and the behavior of other controls in the
K3/P3 system.

Although one could conceivably argue that REF LVL is ergonomically
correct in that counterclockwise rotation moves the reference level
(baseline) DOWN on screen, I find SCALE to be very confusing since
increasing rotation results in less visible range and a smaller (min
to max) size scale.  After all the control is SCALE not amplitude
or trace size.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

On 8/9/2010 10:01 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:

>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rotary controls in the K3 and P3 increase their parameter as the
>> encoder is turned clockwise except in two cases.
>>
>> 1) The P3 "REF LVL" is decreased with clockwise rotation.  Maximum
>>      reference level is -10 dBm with the encoder fully counterclockwise
>>      while it is minimum -160 dBm with the encoder fully clockwise.
>>
>> 2) The P3 "SCALE" (range) is decreased with clockwise rotation.
>>      Scale is minimum (10 dB) when the encoder is fully clockwise
>>      and maximum (80 dB) when the encoder is fully counterclockwise.
>>
>> Both of these controls violate the principle of "expected" behavior
>> and consistent operation.
>>
>
> Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.  Both are
> consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction, which is
> consistent in my opinion.  In the case of REF LVL, turning clockwise until
> the noise floor becomes visible seems correct (i.e. like turning RF GAIN
> clockwise in a traditional radio).  In the case of SCALE, it means less
> visible range above the noise floor which means more resolution of weak
> signals.
>
> After using the P3 I find the current conventions intuitive.  While they
> might not be technically consistent (in terms of the values being set) I
> believe both are consistent and intuitive in terms of practical use.  We
> need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used for
> measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a panadapter
> (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise floor).  Either
> *can* be used the other way around, but I believe the controls of both are
> set up differently for good reasons.
>
> 73,  Bill
>

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[Vic K2VCO]

I've had my P3 for some weeks (I admit to being an ft so please don't everybody jump on
me) and I agree with Joe. I STILL always turn the knob the wrong way when I go to adjust
the ref level.

On 8/9/2010 7:57 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> Bill,
>
>   >  Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.
>   >  Both are consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction,
>   >  which is consistent in my opinion.
>
> While both controls, in fact, increase a behavioral parameter with
> clockwise rotation, the behavior is still inconsistent with other
> controls on both the K3 and P3.  If the controls were arranged to
> adjust an underlying behavioral parameter instead of an absolute
> value, the WIDTH control on the K3 should be reversed so that it
> increases SELECTIVITY (less width) with increasing clockwise
> rotation.
>
>   >  We need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used
>   >  for measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a
>   >  panadapter (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise
>   >  floor).
>
> I don't see how this makes any difference.  The P3 controls are labeled
> REF LVL and SCALE and not "MIN/MAX SENSITIVITY" and the values they
> control have specific numeric values.  Their behavior is backward based
> on both the numeric values and the behavior of other controls in the
> K3/P3 system.
>
> Although one could conceivably argue that REF LVL is ergonomically
> correct in that counterclockwise rotation moves the reference level
> (baseline) DOWN on screen, I find SCALE to be very confusing since
> increasing rotation results in less visible range and a smaller (min
> to max) size scale.  After all the control is SCALE not amplitude
> or trace size.
>
> 73,
>
>      ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 8/9/2010 10:01 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>>
>>
>> Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Rotary controls in the K3 and P3 increase their parameter as the
>>> encoder is turned clockwise except in two cases.
>>>
>>> 1) The P3 "REF LVL" is decreased with clockwise rotation.  Maximum
>>>       reference level is -10 dBm with the encoder fully counterclockwise
>>>       while it is minimum -160 dBm with the encoder fully clockwise.
>>>
>>> 2) The P3 "SCALE" (range) is decreased with clockwise rotation.
>>>       Scale is minimum (10 dB) when the encoder is fully clockwise
>>>       and maximum (80 dB) when the encoder is fully counterclockwise.
>>>
>>> Both of these controls violate the principle of "expected" behavior
>>> and consistent operation.
>>>
>>
>> Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.  Both are
>> consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction, which is
>> consistent in my opinion.  In the case of REF LVL, turning clockwise until
>> the noise floor becomes visible seems correct (i.e. like turning RF GAIN
>> clockwise in a traditional radio).  In the case of SCALE, it means less
>> visible range above the noise floor which means more resolution of weak
>> signals.
>>
>> After using the P3 I find the current conventions intuitive.  While they
>> might not be technically consistent (in terms of the values being set) I
>> believe both are consistent and intuitive in terms of practical use.  We
>> need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used for
>> measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a panadapter
>> (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise floor).  Either
>> *can* be used the other way around, but I believe the controls of both are
>> set up differently for good reasons.
>>
>> 73,  Bill
>>

--
Vic
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Joe Subich, W4TV said the following at 08/09/2010 08:57 AM :

>
> Bill,
>
>  > Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.
>  > Both are consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction,
>  > which is consistent in my opinion.
>
> While both controls, in fact, increase a behavioral parameter with
> clockwise rotation, the behavior is still inconsistent with other
> controls on both the K3 and P3.  If the controls were arranged to
> adjust an underlying behavioral parameter instead of an absolute
> value, the WIDTH control on the K3 should be reversed so that it
> increases SELECTIVITY (less width) with increasing clockwise
> rotation.

As a new K3 owner, this gave me trouble for the first few days because the
behaviour I expected was indeed that selectivity would be increased as I
turned the control clockwise.

Although I have adjusted my head, it still seems wrong (to me).

Perhaps the reason for my expectation is different, though: I think of
decreasing bandwidth as if it were tightening a screw or making an aperture
smaller. Logically it seems like either of those operations would be
accomplished by a clockwise motion. Maybe it's just me.

  73 -- Doc  N7DR

--
Web:  http://www.sff.net/people/N7DR


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[Grant Youngman]

Left, right -- up/down -- do we not have forebrains anymore?

My P3 hasn't arrived yet (although since my CC has been billed, I suspect it won't be long).  I'm trying to figure out from the blather if this control direction will be bothersome.  Or, if I will somehow be able to adapt and not start grumbling that up is down and down is up and north is south and ... ;-)

Like this selectivity thing.  Why isn't WIDTH intuitively -- turn it right to get more?  The control is even marked that way to minimize confusion ... why SHOULD it be some other way?

The buttons to open, close, and minimize windows are on opposite sides in Windows vs. OS X.  The application menu bar is in a different place.  I have not complained to Apple that they screwed their software up, since the locations were "non-intuitive" for the first 2 seconds.  :-)

Grant/NQ5T


On Aug 9, 2010, at 11:05 AM, D. R. Evans wrote:

>>
>> controls on both the K3 and P3.  If the controls were arranged to
>> adjust an underlying behavioral parameter instead of an absolute
>> value, the WIDTH control on the K3 should be reversed so that it
>> increases SELECTIVITY (less width) with increasing clockwise
>> rotation.
>
> As a new K3 owner, this gave me trouble for the first few days
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[The Smiths]

I completely disagree... Clockwise rotation makes things bigger, wider, taller, open, louder etc... Turning the Width moves the filter width WIDER, More open.. It has nothing to do with selectivity.  I'm sure that when they designed the K3 that's exactly what they were thinking too. It follows conventional logic that the common man uses, not engineers that tend to over think, or over complicate things.

With the P3 when you move the Ref lel clockwise things get taller, expand etc... JUST like on the K3.  I think you're over thinking this one Joe.  Personally I don't feel "Violated" at all. My P3 works exactly as I would have expected it to.

 

> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:57:12 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 Unexpected Control Operation ...
>
>
> Bill,
>
> > Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug.
> > Both are consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction,
> > which is consistent in my opinion.
>
> While both controls, in fact, increase a behavioral parameter with
> clockwise rotation, the behavior is still inconsistent with other
> controls on both the K3 and P3. If the controls were arranged to
> adjust an underlying behavioral parameter instead of an absolute
> value, the WIDTH control on the K3 should be reversed so that it
> increases SELECTIVITY (less width) with increasing clockwise
> rotation.
>
> > We need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used
> > for measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a
> > panadapter (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise
> > floor).
>
> I don't see how this makes any difference. The P3 controls are labeled
> REF LVL and SCALE and not "MIN/MAX SENSITIVITY" and the values they
> control have specific numeric values. Their behavior is backward based
> on both the numeric values and the behavior of other controls in the
> K3/P3 system.
>
> Although one could conceivably argue that REF LVL is ergonomically
> correct in that counterclockwise rotation moves the reference level
> (baseline) DOWN on screen, I find SCALE to be very confusing since
> increasing rotation results in less visible range and a smaller (min
> to max) size scale. After all the control is SCALE not amplitude
> or trace size.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 8/9/2010 10:01 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> >
> >
> > Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Rotary controls in the K3 and P3 increase their parameter as the
> >> encoder is turned clockwise except in two cases.
> >>
> >> 1) The P3 "REF LVL" is decreased with clockwise rotation. Maximum
> >> reference level is -10 dBm with the encoder fully counterclockwise
> >> while it is minimum -160 dBm with the encoder fully clockwise.
> >>
> >> 2) The P3 "SCALE" (range) is decreased with clockwise rotation.
> >> Scale is minimum (10 dB) when the encoder is fully clockwise
> >> and maximum (80 dB) when the encoder is fully counterclockwise.
> >>
> >> Both of these controls violate the principle of "expected" behavior
> >> and consistent operation.
> >>
> >
> > Alan N1AL may want to respond but I don't believe either is a bug. Both are
> > consistent with more sensitivity in the clockwise direction, which is
> > consistent in my opinion. In the case of REF LVL, turning clockwise until
> > the noise floor becomes visible seems correct (i.e. like turning RF GAIN
> > clockwise in a traditional radio). In the case of SCALE, it means less
> > visible range above the noise floor which means more resolution of weak
> > signals.
> >
> > After using the P3 I find the current conventions intuitive. While they
> > might not be technically consistent (in terms of the values being set) I
> > believe both are consistent and intuitive in terms of practical use. We
> > need to remember the P3 is not a spectrum analyzer (mainly used for
> > measuring spurious signals down from a reference carrier but a panadapter
> > (mainly used for identifying weak signals above a noise floor). Either
> > *can* be used the other way around, but I believe the controls of both are
> > set up differently for good reasons.
> >
> > 73, Bill
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Let's end this thread. This is another topic that can be argued
forever.  ;-)

If you still feel the urge, please feel free to discuss off-list.

73, Eric  WA6HHq
Elecraft List Modulator

On 8/9/2010 10:14 AM, The Smiths wrote:
> I completely disagree... Clockwise rotation makes things bigger, wider, taller, open, louder etc...
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Doc,

I am not certain why one would believe a control labeled "WIDTH" would
not increase the width as you moved it clockwise.  OTOH, if it were
labeled "SELECTIVITY", I would expect it to narrow the passband as it is
rotated clockwise.

While mine is one ham's interpretation.  I did not have the problem
because I always thought of it as WIDTH.  The graphic above the knob helps.

73,
Don W3FPR

D. R. Evans wrote:

> Joe Subich, W4TV said the following at 08/09/2010 08:57 AM :
>  
>
> As a new K3 owner, this gave me trouble for the first few days because the
> behaviour I expected was indeed that selectivity would be increased as I
> turned the control clockwise.
>
> Although I have adjusted my head, it still seems wrong (to me).
>
> Perhaps the reason for my expectation is different, though: I think of
> decreasing bandwidth as if it were tightening a screw or making an aperture
> smaller. Logically it seems like either of those operations would be
> accomplished by a clockwise motion. Maybe it's just me.
>
>   73 -- Doc  N7DR
>
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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