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P3 and SSTV

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Gary Bartlett VE1RGB

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)/DXpedition version of P3

Let me be quick to counter any unintended tone of bitterness regarding my
good friend Randy N0TG and the CY0 DXpedition that most recently happened.
It was clearly my choice not to go on the final trip.

73,
Gary, VE1RGB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of gary bartlett
Sent: April 26, 2011 12:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)/DXpedition
version of P3

To me it was all about easily providing the operator with alternatives to
nothing but the receiver alone that might ease the pressure of the
DXpedition workload. That would have lead directly to increased throughput,
in which case everyone would win. An experiment based on selfishness but
with fringe benefits, in other words.

Like I said, I never got a chance to try it, but I do enough contesting and
DX work with the P3 that I was confident that I would gain something out of
it. The P3 would have been the source of real-time, real-world, quickly
obtained, multi-band local propagation conditions to the other operators if
nothing else and a P3 on a DXpedition might be worth the weight for that
purpose alone, especially during QSB conditions when the waterfall is so
useful. Band change decisions should have been easier.

That was my answer to the original question about why would one want to take
a P3 on a DXpedition. Chacun à son gout. There is no right or wrong answer
and I am in no position to provide hard evidence to support my own argument
:) Anyone want to organize another CY0?

73,
Gary, VE1RGB

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Fatchett W0MU
Sent: April 26, 2011 11:58 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)/DXpedition
version of P3

I would prefer the room for other things in the travel bag instead of
the P3. All of the things you would like to do can be done with the
radio alone. In split mode you can monitor your own transmit
frequency. There is not much you can do about what goes on there and
the UP UP UP ers will probably beat you to the punch.

What I see that causes the most problems in pileups is the DX not IDing
enough and not announcing their split enough. Even then it does not
matter as there a growing number of ops that can't copy cw and just see
a spot and send away as they don't understand what up is. On RTTY T31A
was sending UP every contact and still people continued to call on his
xmit frequency.

Trying to work the weak guy is admirable but I don't see how the P3 is
going to make that any easier. All you need to do is set a split range
and then let the masses who blindly call do that in that range and then
pick out stations on the edges or above the split range. You can tune
around in your split range for lighter stations if you want. If you can
easily see the weak station in a pileup the pileup can't be that big.

Don't get me wrong I love my P3 as it has put a bunch of contacts in my
log by being able to see the last station worked.

Maybe we need a DX-pedition version of the P3. There is no reason the
case needs to be as bit as it is. If the case was shrunk down to a
third of the size I might consider taking one.

On 4/26/2011 7:38 AM, gary bartlett wrote:
> My motivation in taking a P3 to CY0 was not to overcome difficulty in
making
> QSOs. Based on two previous DXpeditions to CY0, I was more interested in
> making my life a little easier in the face of unlimited and sustained
> pile-ups which start to get to be a bit much after three or 4 days. I
> think the P3 would have done that for me, not to mention provided the
other
> features I mentioned earlier like, say, the ability to watch my own TX
> frequency. I always wanted to be my own frequency cop. Or to defeat
those
> who think that tail-gating is the only way to make a Q in a pile-up.
>
> There is another reason to use a P3 if, like me, one is used to operating
at
> home with a limited station and always being the weak signal. When on a
> trip I like to pick some of the small signal DX who one can guess are
> equally deprived, and the P3 allows one to see those kinds of stations
quite
> easily in the pile-up.
>
> No matter --- our friends from the opposite side of the planet are going
to

> provide us a report after their experiment. Maybe we will discover that
> ears are the only answer.
>
> 73,
> Gary, VE1RGB
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Brian Alsop
> Sent: April 26, 2011 9:29 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)
>
> You're going to do this while running a pileup 1000 callers deep?
>
> DXpeditions exist to make QSO's, not watch TV.
>
> If a DXpedition is having trouble making QSO's, a P3 isn't the answer.
> Improving their antenna(s) and being aware of propagation most likely is.
>
> 73 DE Brian/K3KO
>
> On 4/26/2011 12:08, Cady, Fred wrote:
>> You can Hold CENTER and move the DX station's freq to the left edge of
>> the display and set SPAN so the pileup is spread across the whole
>> display. The two controls interact some but it is easy to do while you
>> are listening to figure out the operator's pattern.
>
>
>
> -----
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Cady, Fred

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)/DXpedition version of P3

In reply to this post by w0mu

W0MU wrote:
> Maybe we need a DX-pedition version of the P3. There is no reason the
> case needs to be as bit as it is. If the case was shrunk down to a
> third of the size I might consider taking one.

Oooh, there's a cool idea. That ought to be pretty easy to do.

I think there is a use for it, particularly on a contest expedition.

Cheers,

Fred
KE7X
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Nick Marsh

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)/DXpedition version of P3

Write an app for an iPad or Android device.

Nick Marsh
WB4SQI

On Apr 26, 2011, at 2:50 PM, "Cady, Fred" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> W0MU wrote:
>> Maybe we need a DX-pedition version of the P3. There is no reason the
>> case needs to be as bit as it is. If the case was shrunk down to a
>> third of the size I might consider taking one.
>
> Oooh, there's a cool idea. That ought to be pretty easy to do.
>
> I think there is a use for it, particularly on a contest expedition.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred
> KE7X
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Gary Gregory

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Joe,

I am certainly NOT going anywhere on the top 200 list. Where we are going is
a unique place in VK and most likely the transmissions will be on NON DX
bands to a station in VK to get the pics posted.

I don't think too many people will even notice mate.

Gary

On 26 April 2011 23:35, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > SSTV for example is a mode just like digital, cw, phone and rtty and
> > granted it is not as common as the other more popular modes but it is
> > a mode nonetheless operated by many.
>
> SSTV is not recognized as a separate mode in the DXCC program - or as
> far as I know in any major DX award program. It "counts" as phone for
> DXCC. Why would any significant DXpedition waste time on a "slow rate"
> mode?
>
> > But we will transmit SSTV images during this operation and we are
> > making arrangements to do this. Will it be popular, well I guess we
> > will wait and see how it goes and have a look at after the event.
>
> Will it be "popular?" I would expect it to be *extremely unpopular*
> - particularly if the location of the DXpedition is to any place on
> the "top 200" needed list. Spending as much as 3 minutes per QSO
> on SSTV when good operators can make ten times as many QSOs in the
> same period on SSB/CW/RTTY makes any SSTV operation extremely unwise.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 4/26/2011 8:49 AM, Gary Gregory wrote:
> > Brian,
> >
> > Most of the comment so far appears to be focused on the hunter, not the
> > DXpedition.
> >
> > On the next effort we intend to use the P3 on a receiving station
> monitoring
> > bands we are not using at a particular time. Many Dxpeditions do not have
> a
> > huge number of operators. If you mean a Dxpedition to a rare and much
> sought
> > after entity then that is a different situation entirely. Some of these
> are
> > able to operate many if not all the bands and modes they are set up for,
> > others have to rationalise the number of bands and stations and with this
> > scenario a P3 would be of assistance.
> >
> > SSTV for example is a mode just like digital, cw, phone and rtty and
> granted
> > it is not as common as the other more popular modes but it is a mode
> > nonetheless operated by many.
> >
> > Advancing the P3 technology to encompass as many operational modes as
> > possible is a plus and should not be seen as a restriction right?
> >
> > I have a request to send SSTV from our next effort and the computers are
> set
> > up for logging and it would be nice in the future to not have to take a
> > PC/Laptop for this.
> >
> > But we will transmit SSTV images during this operation and we are making
> > arrangements to do this. Will it be popular, well I guess we will wait
> and
> > see how it goes and have a look at after the event.
> >
> > It will be fun to do it though so I am looking forward to trying it out.
> >
> > All the input so far has been positive and some good ideas have come up
> > already. It's all good eh?
> >
> > 73's to all,
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > On 26 April 2011 22:29, Brian Alsop<[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> You're going to do this while running a pileup 1000 callers deep?
> >>
> >> DXpeditions exist to make QSO's, not watch TV.
> >>
> >> If a DXpedition is having trouble making QSO's, a P3 isn't the answer.
> >> Improving their antenna(s) and being aware of propagation most likely
> is.
> >>
> >> 73 DE Brian/K3KO
> >>
> >> On 4/26/2011 12:08, Cady, Fred wrote:
> >>> You can Hold CENTER and move the DX station's freq to the left edge of
> >>> the display and set SPAN so the pileup is spread across the whole
> >>> display. The two controls interact some but it is easy to do while you
> >>> are listening to figure out the operator's pattern.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----
> >> No virus found in this message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >> Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3598 - Release Date: 04/26/11
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
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--

VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
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N6JW

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

In reply to this post by alsopb

Hi Brian, et al:

Perhaps the experience of someone who has actually taken a P3 on
a DX operation might be of some interest.

I returned early February from a month and a half trip to Southern
Africa. While not a dxpedition per se, the trip did include a single-
handed, but serious, operation from a moderately rare DXCC entity
(7P8, the Kingdom of Lesotho). I would like to comment on two
issues that have arisen in this thread: is the P3 a useful aid to the
operator running the DX station?; and how difficult is it to take it
along, space-wise? In essence, is it worth it?

This trip balanced visiting family (parent's 60th wedding anniversary),
business (research), vacation (a 4x4 safari through Botswana and
Zimbabwe), and ham radio (as ZS1WN, and 7P8JW). The stay in
7P8 (the landlocked mountain kingdom of Lesotho) lasted a week and
I was able to make more than 3,500 contacts from 7P8 alone.

Travel parameters were such that I only took along what would fit
within the normal international baggage allowance. After necessary
stuff like clothes (for warm and cold; including a suit, jackets & ties),
and a computer--I was able to take TWO complete high performance
HF stations (K3/P3; K2-100/KAT100) in CARRY-ON luggage (thank
you, Elecraft!). My first checked piece was a padded golf bag, which
contained: a 5 band Spiderbeam yagi (14 wire elements on a 33'
boom); 33' aluminum telescoping mast; and a 40' fiberglass mast
for an inverted L for the low bands; together with all the required
guying ropes, stakes, etc. The rest of my personal belongings (and
some other radio stuff!) went in a second allowed checked bag.

My carry-on aluminum-sided case (el cheapo from Home Depot) was
originally used for trips with the K2/100 + KAT100, and had space
left over for the power supply (Astron SS30), headset, cables etc.
However, I found that the K3 and P3 were an exact fit for the case.
So, I downsized the PS (to a very small/light Powerwerx 30 amp
switcher), put it in the golf bag, and took the K3/P3 in the case.
Since I did not want to use the K3 mobile or on safari, I managed
to slip the K2/KAT100 and a second PS (Gamma Research HPS-1a,
even smaller and lighter), and some of the other stuff into the
computer bag along with the Macbook Pro!

[Yes, you have to take the ham radio side of things, at least, semi-
seriously to be willing to do this! But, no, I had no trouble at all
with security at any airport (trip included 8 flights), and paid no
excess baggage allowance at all. Yes, I was fortunate that South
African Airways allowed an additional 20 pounds for the golf bag,
i.e. 70 instead of the normal 50 per bag, but I checked this out
ahead of time. The K3/P3 case was right on the carry-on weight
limit, and the computer bag was over weight, but nobody checked
it. If they did, my backup plan was my dear wife (who was putting
up with me lugging all this stuff around rather well!, and had room
to spare in her carry-on bag), but as it turned out this was not
necessary.]

Am I glad that I took all this stuff? Absolutely. I used the K2/100
and KAT100 to very good effect while operating mobile/portable. I
was able to consistently work LONG PATH (some 14,500 miles, over
the Indian Ocean, Australia, and the Pacific) into the western USA
on 40m SSB, from the coast near Cape Town. This is running 100w
off the rental car's battery, with a magentic mounted Hustler mobile
antenna! [Secret: getting within a quarter wave length of the salt
water, and a clear shot over the ocean.]

I used the K3/P3 combo while operating from 7P8. I could have
used the K2 but I believe the K3 helped me make significantly more
contacts. I have the second RX, ATU, DVR [and 2m transverter]
in my K3 (which has 6 roofing filters between the 2 receivers).

I found the P3 to be useful in the following ways:

1. To instantly get a sense if a band is open by quickly switching to
it and getting a look at activity over a 200 khz span. You have to
try this to realize how much better it is than spinning the dial.
Having the waterfall display on, increased this benefit significantly.

2. Finding the right place to start calling. It is amazing how much
more helpful seeing the spectrum as a whole is to simply listening
up and down. You have no idea how much you miss when you do
not have the time dimension included.

3. "Watching" what is happening on my transmit frequency, so that
I can devote my full attention to getting the callsigns pulled out of
the pileup, without the distraction of "listening" to my TX freq. as
well.

4. Helping to "discipline" the pileup by first seeing/noticing, and
then ignoring, bad behavior. [Of course, sometimes you must
work the offenders to make them go away]. It is interesting how
you can tell who is calling without hearing you; tail-ending; loading
up right on the pileup and then calling you.

5. Helps find stations calling you in the pileup window (particularly
on CW when the pileup thins down a bit). I narrowed the P3 span
down to the listening span.

6. When the pileup is very large, it enables you to quickly tune
to the stronger stations first (the ones you are most likely to be
able to copy).

Finally, it is essential to understand that what I am describing
goes well beyond the capabilities of the build-in "spectrum scopes"
in other radios.

Could I have done without the P3? Of course. For that matter
I could have done without the K3 or K2, or the beam, or . . .
where would it end? [I once took a K1 on a trip to Norway. Did
I have fun? Yes. Did I work pileups? No.]

The trip was wonderful, and everything worked perfectly . . .
except my computer. The hard-drive crashed upon arrival in SA.
Fortunately, I had backed up everything (but it was 6000 miles
away at home). The computer was useless. THANK YOU
Elecraft for NOT making my radio dependent on the computer to
operate! Yes, I logged all 3,500 contacts the old fashioned way--
by hand! I am now struggling with the QSLing side of things.

Would I do it all over again? In a heartbeat--including taking the
P3 along.

73

John, N6JW

alsopb wrote

You're going to do this while running a pileup 1000 callers deep?

DXpeditions exist to make QSO's, not watch TV.

If a DXpedition is having trouble making QSO's, a P3 isn't the answer.
Improving their antenna(s) and being aware of propagation most likely is.

73 DE Brian/K3KO

Andy Faber

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

John,
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Sounds like a great trip.
While not exactly dxpeditioning, I take my P3 to P4 for contests, and find
it to be invaluable, both for checking band activity and for finding open
spots for running. Here's a picture of a prototype P3 in use in 2010 WPX CW
a year ago: http://arubaqth.com/Images/2010_large/2010_May_432_750.jpg
Suggestion to Elecraft: What would make the P3 even more useful for
travelling would be a smaller version. The box is mostly empty space, so a
faceplate in a 2-3 inch deep box with appropriate fold out feet or braces
(perhaps hinged to the back of the case) to allow the buttons to be pushed
would be much easier to transport.
73, andy, ae6y, p49y
www.arubaqth.com

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Cady, Fred

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

Especially if it were made of aluminum to save a bit on weight.

-----Original Message-----
Suggestion to Elecraft: What would make the P3 even more useful for

travelling would be a smaller version. The box is mostly empty space,
so a faceplate in a 2-3 inch deep box with appropriate fold out feet or
braces (perhaps hinged to the back of the case) to allow the buttons to
be pushed would be much easier to transport.
73, andy, ae6y, p49y
www.arubaqth.com

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Edward R Cole

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

In reply to this post by Gary Bartlett VE1RGB

It seems to me this supports the argument for using a laptop for
display. The LP-Pan would be ideal due to its small size. A
screenless compact version of the P3 would be as convenient. I
assume that laptops are taken on dx-peditions for logging.

73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kW?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
======================================
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w0mu

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

While that is another option, I have used LP PAN in the past. For me
the P3 is much more flexible. My computer screens are already clogged
up with logging programs etc. It is nice to look over at the P3 and do
what I need to do on the P3 without losing window focus on other apps etc.

The P3-small was just an interesting idea. Is there a big enough
market? Probably not. As Elecraft has not commented on it I doubt it
has made their radar.

It is interesting to read about how others use their radios and
peripherals in ways that I had not thought about.

Mike

On 4/28/2011 9:10 AM, Edward R. Cole wrote:

> It seems to me this supports the argument for using a laptop for
> display. The LP-Pan would be ideal due to its small size. A
> screenless compact version of the P3 would be as convenient. I
> assume that laptops are taken on dx-peditions for logging.
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
> ======================================
> BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
> EME: 50-1.1kW?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-?
> DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
> ======================================
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

> It seems to me this supports the argument for using a laptop for
> display. The LP-Pan would be ideal due to its small size.

If one wants "screenless" operation, SDR-IQ with its Spectravue
software is ideal. The SDR-IQ is about 4 1/2 x 3 7/8 x 1 1/4",
will interface to the K3 IF Out and computer USB. Using VSPE,
LP-Bridge or another virtual port splitter, SpectraVue will
operate in either "tracking" or fixed tune mode and can view
up to 180 KHz depending on the capability of the computer.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/28/2011 11:10 AM, Edward R. Cole wrote:

ac0h

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:55:34 -0400
"Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If one wants "screenless" operation, SDR-IQ with its Spectravue
> software is ideal. The SDR-IQ is about 4 1/2 x 3 7/8 x 1 1/4",
> will interface to the K3 IF Out and computer USB. Using VSPE,
> LP-Bridge or another virtual port splitter, SpectraVue will
> operate in either "tracking" or fixed tune mode and can view
> up to 180 KHz depending on the capability of the computer.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV

And you get another pretty good general coverage receiver out of the
deal.

With as much "stuff" that people want added to the P3, IMHO trying to
turn it into a computer replacement, everybody needs to keep in mind
that no matter what they add to the P3 hardware wise, and yes to drive
something like a regular outboard monitor they are going to have to add
hardware, folks would be better off going down to the big box store and
buying a dedicated laptop for $350.

The laptop gets you waaaay more processing power and flexibility than
the P3 will EVER have and costs half as much. Yes, you're going to have
to have an LP-Pan or SDR-IQ but by the time Elecraft gets done adding
hardware/software to turn the P3 into a quasi-computer you're still
ahead on performance and price.

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3 on DXpeditions (was P3 and SSTV)

> On 4/28/2011 1:02 PM, R. Kevin Stover wrote:
>
> And you get another pretty good general coverage receiver out of the
> deal.

The general coverage receiver is only available if you do not feed
SDR-IQ from the K3 IF Out jack and "quality" will be somewhat dependent
on the soundcard used for audio playback

> The laptop gets you waaaay more processing power and flexibility than
> the P3 will EVER have and costs half as much.

The only real advantage I find for the computer/SDR-IQ over P3 is in
using SDR-IQ as a second receiver. However, since I have the KRX3 in
both of my K3s, I vastly prefer the P3 for normal panadapter use.
While it is interesting to use SDR-IQ as a general purpose receiver
(or spectrum analyzer) doing so requires a significant amount of
cable swapping and reconfiguring the software so it doesn't happen
all that often.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/28/2011 1:02 PM, R. Kevin Stover wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:55:34 -0400
> "Joe Subich, W4TV"<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> If one wants "screenless" operation, SDR-IQ with its Spectravue
>> software is ideal. The SDR-IQ is about 4 1/2 x 3 7/8 x 1 1/4",
>> will interface to the K3 IF Out and computer USB. Using VSPE,
>> LP-Bridge or another virtual port splitter, SpectraVue will
>> operate in either "tracking" or fixed tune mode and can view
>> up to 180 KHz depending on the capability of the computer.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> And you get another pretty good general coverage receiver out of the
> deal.
>
> With as much "stuff" that people want added to the P3, IMHO trying to
> turn it into a computer replacement, everybody needs to keep in mind
> that no matter what they add to the P3 hardware wise, and yes to drive
> something like a regular outboard monitor they are going to have to add
> hardware, folks would be better off going down to the big box store and
> buying a dedicated laptop for $350.
>
> The laptop gets you waaaay more processing power and flexibility than
> the P3 will EVER have and costs half as much. Yes, you're going to have
> to have an LP-Pan or SDR-IQ but by the time Elecraft gets done adding
> hardware/software to turn the P3 into a quasi-computer you're still
> ahead on performance and price.
>
>