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N6xvt here,
Sorry, in my last email the word need is needed. But with the P3, any software will also be for us Mac users. N6xvt Sent from my iPhone ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 12:32 -0800, Karl Marderian wrote:
> N6xvt here, > Sorry, in my last email the word need is needed. But with the P3, any > software will also be for us Mac users. > N6xvt No software or computer needed. Just plug it into the K3 and turn it on. Alan N1AL ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Firmware? - firmware upgrades?
I think I read that if that was required, the K3 Utility would handle it? -- Too many parents make life hard for their children by trying, too zealously, to make it easy for them. -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, poet, dramatist, novelist, and philosopher (1749-1832) On 15 Feb 2010, at 22:22, Alan Bloom wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 12:32 -0800, Karl Marderian wrote: >> N6xvt here, >> Sorry, in my last email the word need is needed. But with the P3, any >> software will also be for us Mac users. >> N6xvt > > No software or computer needed. Just plug it into the K3 and turn it > on. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Yes. just like the K3.
73, Eric WA6HHQ On 2/15/2010 2:35 PM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote: > Firmware? - firmware upgrades? > I think I read that if that was required, the K3 Utility would handle it? > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hi Eric What about transmit monitoring? Or will this be a future option? Will the P3 have an input for a separate external sampler/coupler for use on the output of the amplifier? John --- On Mon, 2/15/10, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 > To: "David Ferrington, M0XDF" <[hidden email]> > Cc: [hidden email] > Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 3:13 PM > Yes. just like the K3. > > 73, Eric WA6HHQ > > > On 2/15/2010 2:35 PM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote: > > Firmware? - firmware upgrades? > > I think I read that if that was required, the K3 > Utility would handle it? > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
Eric, When you write the manual for the P3 would you please include a good explanation of the use of waterfall displays. I have one on my OII but do not fully understand its benefits. A second point is that it will be interesting if the frequency display can be used to observe the width of signals. The third point previously mentioned is that it would be nice to be able to monitor the transmit waveforms on SSB and CW. Regardless, I am looking forward to my P3! Thank you. 73 Doug EI2CN ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On Feb 16, 2010, at 12:39 AM, turnbull wrote: > When you write the manual for the P3 would you please include a good explanation of the use of waterfall displays. I have one on my OII but do not fully understand its benefits. Spectrograms, such as "waterfalls," make use of your eye-brain system to help find signals that are below the noise level, especially when signals are drifting and don't allow temporal averaging methods. You can see an example of its use (1971) here: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730010095_1973010095.pdf Fig 11-7 on page 130 (although poorly reproduced in the PDF scan) and the text on that page explains its use for discovering very, very weak and very, very DX signals. In the amateur world, the first use of waterfalls was by Skip KH6TY in his Digipan program, I believe. Without Digipan and the ease of "waterfall tuning," PSK31 probably would not have become as popular as it is today. With the addition of some special filtering, you can make a waterfall see even deeper into the noise when the signal is not drifting. The two figures here http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaModem/UsersManual/mfskManual/mfskManual/dominoex.html#weak show the same weak DominoEX signal with 18 FSK carriers. The top figure is what the weak signal looks like in a simple waterfall, and the figure at the bottom, with the same input SNR, takes advantage of a signal that is not drifting, as explained in the accompanying text. In the digital world, you can't work them unless you can *see* them :-). A good waterfall display will also show a CW signal that you can't hear, and can make "zero beating" a virtually instantaneous effort. Or zero beating to a synchronous AM carrier, etc etc. 73 Chen, W7AY ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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P 130 is blank on the pdf document !
73's Philippe A65BI >>> Kok Chen <[hidden email]> 16-02-2010 14:16 >>> On Feb 16, 2010, at 12:39 AM, turnbull wrote: > When you write the manual for the P3 would you please include a good explanation of the use of waterfall displays. I have one on my OII but do not fully understand its benefits. Spectrograms, such as "waterfalls," make use of your eye-brain system to help find signals that are below the noise level, especially when signals are drifting and don't allow temporal averaging methods. You can see an example of its use (1971) here: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730010095_1973010095.pdf Fig 11-7 on page 130 (although poorly reproduced in the PDF scan) and the text on that page explains its use for discovering very, very weak and very, very DX signals. In the amateur world, the first use of waterfalls was by Skip KH6TY in his Digipan program, I believe. Without Digipan and the ease of "waterfall tuning," PSK31 probably would not have become as popular as it is today. With the addition of some special filtering, you can make a waterfall see even deeper into the noise when the signal is not drifting. The two figures here http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaModem/UsersManual/mfskManual/mfskManual/dominoex.html#weak show the same weak DominoEX signal with 18 FSK carriers. The top figure is what the weak signal looks like in a simple waterfall, and the figure at the bottom, with the same input SNR, takes advantage of a signal that is not drifting, as explained in the accompanying text. In the digital world, you can't work them unless you can *see* them :-). A good waterfall display will also show a CW signal that you can't hear, and can make "zero beating" a virtually instantaneous effort. Or zero beating to a synchronous AM carrier, etc etc. 73 Chen, W7AY ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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It reproduced ok on my download copy.
73, Doug VE3MV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philippe Trottet" <[hidden email]> To: "Kok Chen" <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>; "turnbull" <[hidden email]> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 >P 130 is blank on the pdf document ! > 73's > Philippe A65BI > >>>> Kok Chen <[hidden email]> 16-02-2010 14:16 >>> > > On Feb 16, 2010, at 12:39 AM, turnbull wrote: > >> When you write the manual for the P3 would you please include a good >> explanation of the use of waterfall displays. I have one on my OII but >> do not fully understand its benefits. > > Spectrograms, such as "waterfalls," make use of your eye-brain system to > help find signals that are below the noise level, especially when signals > are drifting and don't allow temporal averaging methods. > > You can see an example of its use (1971) here: > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730010095_1973010095.pdf > > Fig 11-7 on page 130 (although poorly reproduced in the PDF scan) and the > text on that page explains its use for discovering very, very weak and > very, very DX signals. > > In the amateur world, the first use of waterfalls was by Skip KH6TY in his > Digipan program, I believe. Without Digipan and the ease of "waterfall > tuning," PSK31 probably would not have become as popular as it is today. > > With the addition of some special filtering, you can make a waterfall see > even deeper into the noise when the signal is not drifting. The two > figures here > > http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaModem/UsersManual/mfskManual/mfskManual/dominoex.html#weak > > show the same weak DominoEX signal with 18 FSK carriers. The top figure > is what the weak signal looks like in a simple waterfall, and the figure > at the bottom, with the same input SNR, takes advantage of a signal that > is not drifting, as explained in the accompanying text. > > In the digital world, you can't work them unless you can *see* them :-). > > A good waterfall display will also show a CW signal that you can't hear, > and can make "zero beating" a virtually instantaneous effort. Or zero > beating to a synchronous AM carrier, etc etc. > > 73 > Chen, W7AY > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Kok Chen
I'd like to see some specs for the P3 to know that it really has the sensitivity to do this. The IF OUT mod regains ~10 dB of the signal lost in the original design but I believe that still leaves ~7 dB that may be lost, according to Jack Smith's measurements: http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_panadapters.htm#What_then_is_the_transfer_gain_of_the_K3_ 73, Bill |
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> I'd like to see some specs for the P3 to know that it really > has the sensitivity to do this. The IF OUT mod regains ~10 > dB of the signal lost in the original design but I believe > that still leaves ~7 dB that may be lost, according to Jack > Smith's measurements: ~7 dB is correct when the IF out is driving a 50 Ohm load. Drive a high impedance load (e.g., the 200 Ohm input of Jack's amplifier) and the "loss" is 1 dB. I believe Jack has a more complete explanation in the Z-10000 amplifier manual. 73, ... Joe, W4TV > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV > Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:18 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 > > > > > Kok Chen wrote: > > > > > > Spectrograms, such as "waterfalls," make use of your > eye-brain system > > to help find signals that are below the noise level, > especially when > > signals are drifting and don't allow temporal averaging methods. > > > > <SNIP> > > > > With the addition of some special filtering, you can make a > waterfall > > see even deeper into the noise when the signal is not drifting. > > > > I'd like to see some specs for the P3 to know that it really > has the sensitivity to do this. The IF OUT mod regains ~10 > dB of the signal lost in the original design but I believe > that still leaves ~7 dB that may be lost, according to Jack > Smith's measurements: > > http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_panadapters.htm 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/P3-tp4576865p4580749.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Kok Chen
That isn't true. PSK31 was invented by G3PLX and there was a waterfall in his reference implementation of the mode, psk31sbw.exe. The innovation of Digipan was to allow you to click on a signal in the waterfall and receive or reply to it anywhere in the audio passband, whereas the G3PLX software required you to tune the signal in to a specific frequency, rather like using the built-in decoder in the K3.
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
The Z10000B buffer amp PCB at 8 MHz has an input impedance dominated by
4.7K to ground and about 2 pF shunt capacitance. The 200 ohm resistor is in series with the input and is not of significant concern in the input impedance relationship. Even with a reasonable length of coaxial cable between a Z10000 and the K3's IF output port, the Z10000 has sufficiently high input impedance to not appreciably load the IF port, so there is another 5 or 6 dB gain pickup over measuring the IF port level with a 50 ohm instrument such as a spectrum analyzer. Jack K8ZOA On 2/16/2010 11:03 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > >> I'd like to see some specs for the P3 to know that it really >> has the sensitivity to do this. The IF OUT mod regains ~10 >> dB of the signal lost in the original design but I believe >> that still leaves ~7 dB that may be lost, according to Jack >> Smith's measurements: >> > ~7 dB is correct when the IF out is driving a 50 Ohm load. > Drive a high impedance load (e.g., the 200 Ohm input of Jack's > amplifier) and the "loss" is 1 dB. I believe Jack has a more > complete explanation in the Z-10000 amplifier manual. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] >> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV >> Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:18 AM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 >> >> >> >> >> Kok Chen wrote: >> >>> >>> Spectrograms, such as "waterfalls," make use of your >>> >> eye-brain system >> >>> to help find signals that are below the noise level, >>> >> especially when >> >>> signals are drifting and don't allow temporal averaging methods. >>> >>> <SNIP> >>> >>> With the addition of some special filtering, you can make a >>> >> waterfall >> >>> see even deeper into the noise when the signal is not drifting. >>> >>> >> I'd like to see some specs for the P3 to know that it really >> has the sensitivity to do this. The IF OUT mod regains ~10 >> dB of the signal lost in the original design but I believe >> that still leaves ~7 dB that may be lost, according to Jack >> Smith's measurements: >> >> http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_panadapters.htm >> > #What_then_is_the_transfer_gain_of_the_K3_ > > 73, Bill > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 07:17 -0800, Bill W4ZV wrote:
> I'd like to see some specs for the P3 to know that it really has the > sensitivity to do this. The IF OUT mod regains ~10 dB of the signal lost in > the original design but I believe that still leaves ~7 dB that may be lost, > according to Jack Smith's measurements: > > http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_panadapters.htm#What_then_is_the_transfer_gain_of_the_K3_ > > 73, Bill On my K3 (with IF output mod) I measured a "transfer gain" (gain from antenna input to IF output) of around -6 to -7 dB with preamp off and +4 to +5 dB with preamp on, depending on the band. The noise figure of the P3 is a little hard to measure since there is no access to its "IF" signal and there is no product detector/audio output, but the design should be capable of around 7 dB NF. Assuming the NF of the K3 is 17 dB with preamp off and 10 dB with preamp on, you can crunch the numbers and calculate that the NF of the K3/P3 combination should be about 18.6 dB with preamp off and 10.7 dB with preamp on. (Actually the 18.6 dB figure assumes that all K3 noise is introduced before the IF tap point, which is probably too pessimistic an assumption.) So the NF of the P3 display should be within a dB or so of the NF of the K3 alone. And of course band noise will totally swamp out receiver noise in most situations anyway. You should be able to see signals on the P3 that you can't hear. (Unless you have VERY good ears!) Alan N1AL ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO
On Feb 16, 2010, at 2/16 8:33 AM, Julian, G4ILO wrote: > PSK31 was invented by G3PLX and there was a waterfall in > his reference implementation of the mode, psk31sbw.exe. I stand corrected. 73 Chen, W7AY ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Years ago, back in the mid-1970s I worked on a signal processing project for the government. We produced spectrograms which are used for the same purpose as waterfall displays. We produced spectrograms on (then) very expensive RAMTEK color graphic displays and also printed on paper. My role though was not the signal processing, I worked on the software for the display and device drivers for the special spectrogram printers.
73, phil, K7PEH On Feb 16, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Kok Chen wrote: > > On Feb 16, 2010, at 2/16 8:33 AM, Julian, G4ILO wrote: > >> PSK31 was invented by G3PLX and there was a waterfall in >> his reference implementation of the mode, psk31sbw.exe. > > I stand corrected. > > 73 > Chen, W7AY > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alan Bloom-2
N6XVT,
Will there be a second display or control via computer? On Feb 15, 2010, at 2:22 PM, Alan Bloom wrote: > On Mon, 2010-02-15 at 12:32 -0800, Karl Marderian wrote: >> N6xvt here, >> Sorry, in my last email the word need is needed. But with the P3, any >> software will also be for us Mac users. >> N6xvt > > No software or computer needed. Just plug it into the K3 and turn it > on. > > Alan N1AL > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Alan Bloom-2
Unfortunately the reverse is true for me. Case in point...this morning 5W0YA was very weak on 160m but Q5 copy by ear. Nothing was showing in CW Skimmer's waterfall (using LP-PAN, PRE on and with the R8 IF OUT mod performed). Perhaps this is a software issue in Skimmer but I hope the P3 will do better. 73, Bill |
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