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Richard Thorpe

P3

Please Elecraft gurus make a black box version of the P3 that will
connect to a computer, it could be less expensive and obviously take
up less desk space. In my opinion the latest pictures of the P3 are
very unappealing. In my application it would have to be placed on top
of my K3 imagine how that would look. I would think you would sell
"black box " versions 2 to 1 and get away from that mini screen I see
in the P3 pictures. Please, please, please, and thank you.

R Thorpe AC9D
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Jay S

Re: P3

Isn't this the black box version? :)

http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Richard Thorpe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please Elecraft gurus make a black box version of the P3 that will
> connect to a computer, it could be less expensive and obviously take
> up less desk space. In my opinion the latest pictures of the P3 are
> very unappealing. In my application it would have to be placed on top
> of my K3 imagine how that would look. I would think you would sell
> "black box " versions 2 to 1 and get away from that mini screen I see
> in the P3 pictures. Please, please, please, and thank you.
>
> R Thorpe AC9D
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Guy, K2AV

Re: P3

Exactly. The point of the P3 is to *get away from* using a PC. It is
made to go next to the K3. That means I can take with me to xxxx and
not have to drag a PC along, or install a bunch of stuff on someone
else's PC to use the spectrum display. Believe that was the point.

If one doesn't want a built-in screen and DOES want a PC there are
existing setups that will display the K3 IF on one's PC. No need for
Elecraft to get bogged down in something that has a dozen competitors.
I surely hope they spend their precious time elsewhere. SDR-IQ, etc,
come up for sale on this reflector and I suspect we will see more.
Mostly for way less than a P3 and DO use a PC.

73, Guy.

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Jay Sissom <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Isn't this the black box version? :)
>
> http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Richard Thorpe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Please Elecraft gurus make a black box version of the P3 that will
>> connect to a computer, it could be less expensive and obviously take
>> up less desk space. In my opinion the latest pictures of the P3 are
>> very unappealing. In my application it would have to be placed on top
>> of my K3 imagine how that would look. I would think you would sell
>> "black box " versions 2 to 1 and get away from that mini screen I see
>> in the P3 pictures. Please, please, please, and thank you.
>>
>> R Thorpe AC9D
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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>>
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: P3

[on soapbox]

Let me increase the noise level by also preferring the "no need for a PC"
P3.

I would like most of my ham radio operations to be PC free. Especially
PC free as I prefer my Apple Macs but I am not making a statement
about Mac versus PC. I would say the same, I want Mac free
operating.

Is there a place for a PC? Sure, firmware update, programming my
K3, or other similar acts. But, when I operate, I have my K3, my
Begali Paddle, and my spiral bound notebook where I log my
contacts. A computer interface has not yet been invented that can
surpass the flexibility and speed of paper and pencil -- I should know,
I have been a programmer for 45 years and I am very well aware of
the features of all of the best logging programs. No I do not contest,
if I did, I too would probably use a computer for logging admitting that
in some circumstances the computer is a help. And, I am doing some
experimenting with PSK and use my Mac for that but that is all.

But, I prefer PC-free functionality from Elecraft so I really like the idea
of the P3 without the need of a computer except for firmware download
and maintenance. Yes, if I wanted a computer interface I would be using
the LP-PAN solution.

[off soapbox]

73, phil, K7PEH

On Apr 16, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> Exactly. The point of the P3 is to *get away from* using a PC. It is
> made to go next to the K3. That means I can take with me to xxxx and
> not have to drag a PC along, or install a bunch of stuff on someone
> else's PC to use the spectrum display. Believe that was the point.
>
> If one doesn't want a built-in screen and DOES want a PC there are
> existing setups that will display the K3 IF on one's PC. No need for
> Elecraft to get bogged down in something that has a dozen competitors.
> I surely hope they spend their precious time elsewhere. SDR-IQ, etc,
> come up for sale on this reflector and I suspect we will see more.
> Mostly for way less than a P3 and DO use a PC.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Jay Sissom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Isn't this the black box version? :)
>>
>> http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Richard Thorpe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Please Elecraft gurus make a black box version of the P3 that will
>>> connect to a computer, it could be less expensive and obviously take
>>> up less desk space. In my opinion the latest pictures of the P3 are
>>> very unappealing. In my application it would have to be placed on top
>>> of my K3 imagine how that would look. I would think you would sell
>>> "black box " versions 2 to 1 and get away from that mini screen I see
>>> in the P3 pictures. Please, please, please, and thank you.
>>>
>>> R Thorpe AC9D
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
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>>
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: P3

In reply to this post by Jay S

Jay,

I have a "gray box" version - a Clifton Labs Z10000 buffer and a
Softrock 6.2 with audio isolation transformers mounted in an EC2
enclosure (yes, there is other stuff in that enclosure too). While it
is a god system, judging from the photos of the P3 in action, the
resolution of the P3 is much better than what I have seen with either my
system or the LP-Pan implementation.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jay Sissom wrote:
> Isn't this the black box version? :)
>
> http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
>
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Brett Howard

Re: P3

Also it should be noted that the P3 is going to bring about a whole
new realm of possibilities in the way of K3 UI enhancement. Such as
more decode area for digital modes, better menu visibility and what
not...

~Brett

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jay,
>
> I have a "gray box" version - a Clifton Labs Z10000 buffer and a
> Softrock 6.2 with audio isolation transformers mounted in an EC2
> enclosure (yes, there is other stuff in that enclosure too). While it
> is a god system, judging from the photos of the P3 in action, the
> resolution of the P3 is much better than what I have seen with either my
> system or the LP-Pan implementation.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Jay Sissom wrote:
>> Isn't this the black box version? :)
>>
>> http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Doug Turnbull

Re: P3

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Phil,
I agree with your desire to keep my K3 PC free. I do contest and use
WinTest which is a great help but my normal log is paper and all contest
logs are printed out before placing them in a binder. A good friend of
mine almost gave up the hobby because he could no longer access his HDD
bound logs and yes I know everyone should back up but there is a lot of data
on floppies and zip disks which is becoming harder to access. My old 1960s
logs are still for the good. Another reason I prefer to be disconnected
from the PC is lightning protection. When not in use I tend to disconnect
the K3 from antenna and mains but if it were connected to the PC then there
would be that much more to disconnect so as to stay isolated from phone/LAN
and power mains. This is a personal choice but it is one of the main
reasons why I am not taking a less expensive approach to the spectrum
display panadaptor. To each his own and discussion is healthy.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----

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lstavenhagen

Re: P3

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

>Exactly. The point of the P3 is to *get away from* using a PC. It is
made to go next to the K3. That means I can take with me to xxxx and
not have to drag a PC along, or install a bunch of stuff on someone
else's PC to use the spectrum display. Believe that was the point. <

Ah, these are just heavenly words to me, hi hi...... And one of the primary reasons I'm now a hardcore elecrafter. I'll admit that the functionality of general purpose SW like what we have now are a tough act to follow, but if it _can_ be followed with a device specifically designed to work with a ham rig (and not these awful Rube Goldberg setups with PC's/adapters/cables/busted drivers/lock-in to Windows/etc we're forced to use now) I'll be right there in line to buy it.

I wonder if there'll eventually be some kind of keyboard/mouse interfacing available with the P3? That'd be a wheel I wouldn't mind elecraft reinventing since again that would be with a purpose-built device for the K3. I.e. a way to use PSK-D and RTTY-D using a KB and the P3 for RX?

73,
LS
W5QD

lstavenhagen

Re: P3

In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull

One other thing I will say about this. I do personally also see what Wayne/Eric/Lyle are probably up against as far as the PC+SDR juggernaut. The fight involved in forcing square pegs like a PC running Windows into a round hole like controlling a ham rig is one that most of us are simply used to from other applications and are therefore willing to keep trying.

Frankly, many of us are simply accustomed to horrible general purpose designs like Windows/PC's for applications like this, there's a very strong perception that that's the way using a computer is supposed to be. Some solutions like PSK and software like cocoaModem are ingenious workarounds to this general problem, but ultimately there's still a lot of Rube Goldberg involved there that we're just accustomed to: A hard-to-use operating system talking to a broken driver talking to a USB port talking to USB->RS232 converter talking to an RS232 port on a rig talking to a..... you get the idea.

This is an NP-hard problem for purpose-built hardware/software solutions in general these days, even when they're very well designed and work really well. Hammering some junk Dell somewhere running garbage like Windows into the problem is often still the preferred method (usually because of cost or general availability of the hardware, etc) even when a much more elegant and effective (but proprietary and purpose-built) solution is available.

So to sum up, I'm hopeful about the P3 but I also realize that there're more realistic concerns that elecraft will have to deal with here.......

My .02,
73,
LS
W5QD

rlindzen

Re: P3

With all this talk of the P3, I am still unable to find this item
listed on the Elecraft website. Where is it?

Dick
KA1SA (Ser# 911)

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David Gilbert

Re: P3

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

You do realize that you're simply asking Elecraft to turn the K3 into
your computer (except with a different operating system), right?
Possibly it might be useful to be able to connect a keyboard and mouse
directly to a P3, but I'm having a hard time visualizing how #1 below is
any more elegant than #2 for portable operation, at least in terms of
hardware.

1. K3 + P3 + keyboard + mouse + external monitor + paper log + hand
transfer of QSOs to home computer

2. K3 + P3 (or LP-PAN) + small laptop

73,
Dave AB7E

p.s. Refurbished laptop computers are very inexpensive

On 4/17/2010 6:03 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

>> Exactly. The point of the P3 is to *get away from* using a PC. It is
>>
> made to go next to the K3. That means I can take with me to xxxx and
> not have to drag a PC along, or install a bunch of stuff on someone
> else's PC to use the spectrum display. Believe that was the point.<
>
> Ah, these are just heavenly words to me, hi hi...... And one of the primary
> reasons I'm now a hardcore elecrafter. I'll admit that the functionality of
> general purpose SW like what we have now are a tough act to follow, but if
> it _can_ be followed with a device specifically designed to work with a ham
> rig (and not these awful Rube Goldberg setups with
> PC's/adapters/cables/busted drivers/lock-in to Windows/etc we're forced to
> use now) I'll be right there in line to buy it.
>
> I wonder if there'll eventually be some kind of keyboard/mouse interfacing
> available with the P3? That'd be a wheel I wouldn't mind elecraft
> reinventing since again that would be with a purpose-built device for the
> K3. I.e. a way to use PSK-D and RTTY-D using a KB and the P3 for RX?
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
>

lstavenhagen

Re: P3

>You do realize that you're simply asking Elecraft to turn the K3 into
your computer (except with a different operating system), right? <

More or less, yes. But the elecraft solution would be purpose-built for controlling the K3, using the data modes etc., which my computer is decidedly not.

>Possibly it might be useful to be able to connect a keyboard and mouse
directly to a P3, but I'm having a hard time visualizing how #1 below is
any more elegant than #2 for portable operation, at least in terms of
hardware.

1. K3 + P3 + keyboard + mouse + external monitor + paper log + hand
transfer of QSOs to home computer

2. K3 + P3 (or LP-PAN) + small laptop <

That's because you're dramatically oversimplifying #2 hi hi. There you forgot, keyboard, mouse, external monitor, drivers (introduce first 3rd party here), searching internet for fixed drivers, installing LP-PAN (3rd party #2) and associated software, fighting with Windows (3rd party #3) to get drivers working, and so on.

#1 being a proprietary, purpose-built solution gets around the Rube Goldberg affect of the general purpose solution in #2, all its 3rd parties and the hassle getting it all to work right.

That's the general idea I have in mind anyway....

73,
LS
W5QD

Kok Chen

Re: P3

On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:54 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

> That's because you're dramatically oversimplifying #2 hi hi. There you
> forgot, keyboard, mouse, external monitor, drivers (introduce first 3rd
> party here), searching internet for fixed drivers, installing LP-PAN (3rd
> party #2) and associated software, fighting with Windows (3rd party #3) to
> get drivers working, and so on.

He said "small laptop." No need for extra keyboard, monitor, etc.

Also, under marginal propagation conditions with digital modes, the demodulator in the K3 is not as good as real modems that are implemented in computers. Today's laptops (and even an iPad) has much more computing power than the embedded chips in the K3, which has to do other things too. Modems implemented in computers are often written by specialists who can do better than the guys at Elecraft or Icom.

And that is not to mention the lack of QPSK31, PSK63, RTTY at different shifts and baud rate (there is a 75 baud RTTY contest coming up) on the K3. Not even touching on lack of MFSK modes on the K3.

Vy 73
Chen

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lstavenhagen

Re: P3

True - like all the solutions, each is going to have its compromises and advantages. It depends on which compromise is the best fit for your intended use. My only point is the general purpose (outboard computer) solution that has the advantages of more advanced software is not necessarily cost-free. And in fact, those costs can be high enough (again depending on what you want to do and what your tolerance is for juggling 3rd party issues, etc) to warrant choosing a purpose-built solution instead.

If I were still a Windows user, for example, I wouldn't even be attempting a computer based solution at all because of the fight I'd face having to use Windows and the associated SW alone (much less a completely SDR). But as a Mac user, I'm already able to use your cocoaModem and RUMLog with my K3 with very little problem at all (except for my interference issues which I have to solve in any case).

But if the P3, say, could duplicate something similar without me having to use my computers and offered a truly hassle-free centralized option, I would definitely look at it.

73,
LS
W5QD

David Gilbert

Re: P3

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

No ... I didn't oversimplify #2, at least not in terms of hardware as I
stated. A laptop already includes the keyboard, monitor, and at least a
rudimentary mouse. Most mouse functions for ham radio purposes are
easily (some more so) performed with arrow keys anyway.

Your comments on current software/drivers are valid, but in general I'm
not sure that replacing clumsy software with dedicated hardware is the
best overall solution. It seems to me that simple hardware and cleanly
functional software is the better path. You're happy that Elecraft is
offering the first path ... I'd be happier if someone offered the second
one.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 4/17/2010 10:54 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

>
> That's because you're dramatically oversimplifying #2 hi hi. There you
> forgot, keyboard, mouse, external monitor, drivers (introduce first 3rd
> party here), searching internet for fixed drivers, installing LP-PAN (3rd
> party #2) and associated software, fighting with Windows (3rd party #3) to
> get drivers working, and so on.
>
> #1 being a proprietary, purpose-built solution gets around the Rube Goldberg
> affect of the general purpose solution in #2, all its 3rd parties and the
> hassle getting it all to work right.
>
> That's the general idea I have in mind anyway....
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
>

lstavenhagen

Re: P3

My point is, even with just the laptop + computer, you, for better or worse, already have 4 3rd parties involved before you ever get to use your rig:
- the laptop manufacturer
- the SDR/Interface software manufacturers
- the OS vendor
- elecraft

If any of these have a problem working with each other, you've got a fair bit of work ahead of you. If it works, great, but if not....

If say the P3 + K3 were to work adequately for some application, say just using casual PSK and that's ok for what you want to do, that list of 3rd party vendors reduces down to one: Elecraft. Your chances of success at getting that working and well-supported are pretty good and could be a significant advantage.

But Chen's point is good too and I don't want to diminish your point either. For example, I have cocoamodem running on my macbook right now scanning PSK signals from my K3 and it's just a joy to use. It is able to decode sigs I can hardly even hear out of the audio, QSYs to different stations is done with just a mouse click, it's even got integration into RUMLog, etc. and yes all with only 2 audio cords and a USB->RS232 adaptor (course the computer being a mac helps a lot hi hi)......

So yes, capabilities like that available from general purpose computing are going to be a VERY tough act to follow and elecraft has its work cut out for them to compete on that level. All I'm saying is a special-purpose solution can offer (if nothing else) the single-vendor advantage and that can be significant depending on the application. It should be counted out is what I mean..

73,
LS
W5QD

rlindzen

Re: P3

In reply to this post by rlindzen

Many thanks. It looks lovely, but, for the
moment, I'm actually content with LP-Pan.

Dick

At 01:59 PM 4/17/2010, Detlef Jahn wrote:

>Dick, look at that page
>http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm
>'73 DL1GJ K3 366 Detlef Lake of Constance, nr Friedrichshafen
>
>
>-----UrsprÃ¼ngliche Nachricht-----
>Von: "Richard S. Lindzen" <[hidden email]>
>Gesendet: 17.04.2010 19:04:01
>An: [hidden email]
>Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] P3
>
>With all this talk of the P3, I am still unable to find this item
>listed on the Elecraft website. Where is it?
>
>Dick
>KA1SA (Ser# 911)
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: P3

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

I AGREE!

If I can't have a radio that does not rely on some external computer of
various questionable hardware integrity, some other company's flaky
operating system and all put together by a 3rd party vendor..........I
won't buy that radio.

A fully stand-a-lone radio is highly preferred. All I want is to connect
power, antenna, mike, key and I'm on the air.

73
Bob, K4TAX

----- Original Message -----
From: "lstavenhagen" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3

>
> My point is, even with just the laptop + computer, you, for better or
> worse,
> already have 4 3rd parties involved before you ever get to use your rig:
> - the laptop manufacturer
> - the SDR/Interface software manufacturers
> - the OS vendor
> - elecraft
>
> If any of these have a problem working with each other, you've got a fair
> bit of work ahead of you. If it works, great, but if not....
>
> If say the P3 + K3 were to work adequately for some application, say just
> using casual PSK and that's ok for what you want to do, that list of 3rd
> party vendors reduces down to one: Elecraft. Your chances of success at
> getting that working and well-supported are pretty good and could be a
> significant advantage.
>
> But Chen's point is good too and I don't want to diminish your point
> either.
> For example, I have cocoamodem running on my macbook right now scanning
> PSK
> signals from my K3 and it's just a joy to use. It is able to decode sigs I
> can hardly even hear out of the audio, QSYs to different stations is done
> with just a mouse click, it's even got integration into RUMLog, etc. and
> yes
> all with only 2 audio cords and a USB->RS232 adaptor (course the computer
> being a mac helps a lot hi hi)......
>
> So yes, capabilities like that available from general purpose computing
> are
> going to be a VERY tough act to follow and elecraft has its work cut out
> for
> them to compete on that level. All I'm saying is a special-purpose
> solution
> can offer (if nothing else) the single-vendor advantage and that can be
> significant depending on the application. It should be counted out is what
> I
> mean..
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/P3-tp4914382p4918618.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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lstavenhagen

Re: P3

Case in point: my $2700 macbook pro went Tango Uniform yesterday evening just as I was about to hook it up to my K3. Fortunately, it's still under warranty but will be off getting fixed for at least 2 weeks.

Sure that could happen to the rig too, but it'd be even worse if I had this perfectly working radio sitting here that I couldn't use because the computer decided to behead itself on nice evening hi hi.

Just one checkmark in the no-computer column hi hi...

73
LS
W5QD

ac0h

Re: P3

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

I disagree.

The radio I built doesn't "rely" on an external computer. The Pan
adapter I built and use with it does. Tell me, how is the P3 firmware
going to be upgraded? Magic firmware pixies?

The computer I built for the task doesn't have "questionable hardware
integrity". It's top of the line and will run away from any factory
built machine from ANY company, yes, including the Ipod manufacturer.

Which flaky operating system are you referring to?
I run three separate OS's on my machine.
Right now I've got WinXP Pro 32 bit, Windows 7 64 bit, and Linux 64 bit
installed. Pan adapter works with all three but then I installed REAL
serial ports.

People have trouble with the USB-serial adapter drivers and we blame the
operating system? I'd be willing to bet most USB adapter problems are
actually pilot error. You did follow the directions and install the
drivers before you plugged it in the first time right? You did fully
uninstall the drivers before trying a new version right?

The computer/soundcard/LP-Pan/software combination is WAY more flexible
and powerful than anything Elecraft can do with the P3. Must be a reason
why every time the P3 comes up, the first thing people want to do is
turn it into a computer by hanging a mouse and keyboard off of it.

Makes one go Huhmmm???

On Sun, 2010-04-18 at 16:45 -0500, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:

> I AGREE!
>
> If I can't have a radio that does not rely on some external computer of
> various questionable hardware integrity, some other company's flaky
> operating system and all put together by a 3rd party vendor..........I
> won't buy that radio.
>
> A fully stand-a-lone radio is highly preferred. All I want is to connect
> power, antenna, mike, key and I'm on the air.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX