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P3 vs SDR-IQ

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Joe Word-2

P3 vs SDR-IQ

I have been using a P3 with my K3 for the last two weeks and not happy with it's
operation. I set the parameters to what I like, the patterns look
good, but when
I tune the screen fills with noise and you can not see the signals up
and down the band.
I am told the SVGA option does the same thing. Have owned radios from
Apache Labs and Flex
and used the SDR-IQ/SpectraVue and LP-Pan panadapters and all of them
do not have
this problem. On SDR-IQ/SpectraVue the pattern smears some when
tuning, but no noise.

Joe N9VX

------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone compared the SDR-IQ as a panadapter with the P3?

I am using the SDR-IQ now but would like to be able to use my entire
computer screen for other displays during contests.

Dave N1IX
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dmb@lightstream.net

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Joe,

Are you by some chance using your P3 with the "FixTrack" mode set to
"Tracking mode" rather than "Fixed-tune mode"? If so, WHY??? ;-)

I used PowerSDR with a FLEX-5000A for years and always hated that it ONLY
supported what Elecraft refers to as "Tracking" mode. Eventually, as
PowerSDR was completely reworked for HPSDR (and now ANAN) the "Fixed-tune
mode" was implemented and works well though it has a couple of minor bugs.
The new FLEX 6000 series SmartSDR uses "Fixed-tune mode" as well. I don't
know if it's even possible to get it to work in tracking mode -- I've
never tried, and have no idea why one would want it to.

Regarding the P3, I've been using the P3/P3SVGA with my K3 daily for about
3 1/2 years now in Fixed-tune mode, and have *never* seen any change in
the noise floor during tuning under any circumstances regardless of the
level of averaging used.

If you are seeing the noise floor change in any way while tuning in
"Fixed-tune" mode, then something is definitely wrong.

Best of luck in getting this resolved.

73, Dale
WA8SRA

> I have been using a P3 with my K3 for the last two weeks and not happy
> with it's
> operation. I set the parameters to what I like, the patterns look
> good, but when
> I tune the screen fills with noise and you can not see the signals up
> and down the band.
> I am told the SVGA option does the same thing. Have owned radios from
> Apache Labs and Flex
> and used the SDR-IQ/SpectraVue and LP-Pan panadapters and all of them
> do not have
> this problem. On SDR-IQ/SpectraVue the pattern smears some when
> tuning, but no noise.
>
> Joe N9VX
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone compared the SDR-IQ as a panadapter with the P3?
>
>
>
> I am using the SDR-IQ now but would like to be able to use my entire
> computer screen for other displays during contests.
>
>
>
> Dave N1IX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Administrator

In reply to this post by Joe Word-2

Hi Joe - Do you have signal averaging turned on to reduce the noise floor? If
you do, it has to stop averaging when the freq is being changed while tuning,
temporarily raising the noise floor slightly. It then re-starts multi-pass
averaging once you stop tuning. This is normal for signal averaging. I run with
averaging set =2 or 3 passes. When I tune I barely notice a small increase in
the noise floor.

If you have a lot of local pulse noise, you might want to turn on the P3s NB
function to help.

If Averaging is turned off, I can't think of a normal scenario where the noise
floor would go up when tuning the band. It certainly does not here.

Anyone else have any ideas?

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 7/30/2015 5:43 PM, Joe Word wrote:

> I have been using a P3 with my K3 for the last two weeks and not happy with it's
> operation. I set the parameters to what I like, the patterns look
> good, but when
> I tune the screen fills with noise and you can not see the signals up
> and down the band.
> I am told the SVGA option does the same thing. Have owned radios from
> Apache Labs and Flex
> and used the SDR-IQ/SpectraVue and LP-Pan panadapters and all of them
> do not have
> this problem. On SDR-IQ/SpectraVue the pattern smears some when
> tuning, but no noise.
>
> Joe N9VX
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone compared the SDR-IQ as a panadapter with the P3?
>
>
>
> I am using the SDR-IQ now but would like to be able to use my entire
> computer screen for other displays during contests.
>
>
>
> Dave N1IX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

In reply to this post by Joe Word-2

I've seen nothing like that here, Joe, in well
over a year of using the K3-P3 combo.

Something is amiss in your setup. Be sure to check
all cables since that is a common problem.

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/30/15 5:43 PM, Joe Word wrote:

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Same here. Looks great on this end.

You might want to perform an exorcism or something

My personal opinion is that the P3/VGA is on par
with the Flex 6000 system or the QS1R running
SDRMaxV.

It is literally MILES ahead of anything that shows
on any Icom, Kenwood or Yaesu radio that I've
owned.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft
[mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Phil Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 9:06 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3 vs SDR-IQ

I've seen nothing like that here, Joe, in well
over a year of using the K3-P3 combo.

Something is amiss in your setup. Be sure to check
all cables since that is a common problem.

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/30/15 5:43 PM, Joe Word wrote:
> I have been using a P3 with my K3 for the last
two weeks and not happy with it's
> operation. I set the parameters to what I
like, the patterns look
> good, but when I tune the screen fills with
noise and you can not see
> the signals up and down the band.
> I am told the SVGA option does the same thing.
Have owned radios from
> Apache Labs and Flex and used the
SDR-IQ/SpectraVue and LP-Pan
> panadapters and all of them do not have this
problem. On
> SDR-IQ/SpectraVue the pattern smears some when
tuning, but no noise.
>
> Joe N9VX
>

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Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

In reply to this post by Joe Word-2

Joe - I use "Fixed Tune" mode because I just like that display the best -
BUT I just checked "Tracking Mode" and I see about a half S unit noise when
I tune - I do not see any in "Fixed Tune" . UNLESS I look with the K3 on a
dummy load so no external antenna noise at all. Its visible there but
never with an antenna connected.

I will say that it got worse when I put in the KAT3 so I had two front panel
selectable antenna ports - I originally started with no antenna tuner in the
K3. I suspect if I went in and played with TMP cable dress some more or
double checked grounding I might be able to improve that - but its no
problem.

Also , there is a thing to do that sometimes reduces tuning noise (although
tuning noise form the synths may not be the issue here ) but FWIW

Here is a paste of what Elecraft suggested (did not make much difference
for me)

>>>Hank - Please try this for the "noise"
>>>Locate the CONFIG:VCO MD menu entry, and tap the 1 keypad switch until
>>>you
>>>see SPI 2; this selects the new bus clock rate. (The default setting is
>>>SPI 1.)

73 Hank K7HP

>I have been using a P3 with my K3 for the last two weeks and not happy with
>it's
> operation. I set the parameters to what I like, the patterns look
>good, but when I tune the screen fills with noise and you can not see the
>signals up
>and down the band.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

In reply to this post by Joe Word-2

On Thu,7/30/2015 5:43 PM, Joe Word wrote:
> I have been using a P3 with my K3 for the last two weeks and not happy with it's operation. I set the parameters to what I like, the patterns look good, but when I tune the screen fills with noise and you can not see the signals up and down the band.

Study the manual. You need to turn on Fixed Tune Mode -- that's one of
the functions you want to assign to one of the F-Keys. That prevents the
P3 from re-centering every time you tune, and causes it to work like you
want.

73, Jim K9YC

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John Kramer

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

I think I know what Joe is getting at….and I agree with him, if I understand him correctly. When he refers to “noise floor”
he means that he loses averaging when he tunes, resulting in the crazy spectrum display (what Joe refers to as noise).

I haven’t seen or used a P3, but I bought my first Elecraft products 3 weeks ago - a KX3 and PX3. If the P3 behaves in the
same manner as the PX3 then I can see what Joe is complaining about. Right out the box my PX3 had this frustrating
feature of losing averaging the moment you spun the VFO on the KX3. I pointed this out to a local KX3/PX3 owner, and
he told me to download the latest firmware which allows you to select “fixed mode” or “fixed track”. I downloaded the
firmware. YES, it kinda fixes the problem….you can now tune the radio and KEEP the averaging….but the problem is
that now your receive filter goes down the display as you tune. This is better than the previous method, however
you now have your receive filter heavily offset from the centre of the display. You might tune down the band, with your
RX filter at the bottom of the scale, and you are now unable to see much below, but you can see a huge chunk of
the band above you.

I bought the KX3 and PX3 for portable ops. My main rigs for the past 5 years are Flex rigs. I have the 5000/3000/1500
and will be getting a 6500 soon as my shack rigs. With these rigs and PSDR, your RX filter REMAINS CENTRED and when
you tune around the band, you DON’T LOSE your averaging. This is how I like it to be, and if Elecraft can achieve this
in a firmware update, I would be very happy.

73
John, ZS5J

On 31 Jul 2015, at 2:56 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Joe - Do you have signal averaging turned on to reduce the noise floor? If you do, it has to stop averaging when the freq is being changed while tuning, temporarily raising the noise floor slightly. It then re-starts multi-pass averaging once you stop tuning. This is normal for signal averaging. I run with averaging set =2 or 3 passes. When I tune I barely notice a small increase in the noise floor.

If you have a lot of local pulse noise, you might want to turn on the P3s NB function to help.

If Averaging is turned off, I can't think of a normal scenario where the noise floor would go up when tuning the band. It certainly does not here.

Anyone else have any ideas?

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

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Stewart@twinwood

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

I would be interested in comments from Elecraft as to why the KX3/P3 differ from
the products you list in the way averaging is handled.

73
Stewart G3RXQ

On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 10:13:25 +0200, John Kramer wrote:
> I think I know what Joe is getting at....and I agree with him, if I understand
him correctly. When he refers to "noise floor"
> he means that he loses averaging when he tunes, resulting in the crazy
spectrum display (what Joe refers to as noise).
>
> I haven't seen or used a P3, but I bought my first Elecraft products 3 weeks
ago - a KX3 and PX3. If the P3 behaves in the
> same manner as the PX3 then I can see what Joe is complaining about. Right out
the box my PX3 had this frustrating
> feature of losing averaging the moment you spun the VFO on the KX3. I pointed
this out to a local KX3/PX3 owner, and
> he told me to download the latest firmware which allows you to select "fixed
mode" or "fixed track". I downloaded the
> firmware. YES, it kinda fixes the problem....you can now tune the radio and
KEEP the averaging....but the problem is
> that now your receive filter goes down the display as you tune. This is better
than the previous method, however
> you now have your receive filter heavily offset from the centre of the
display. You might tune down the band, with your
> RX filter at the bottom of the scale, and you are now unable to see much
below, but you can see a huge chunk of
> the band above you.
>
> I bought the KX3 and PX3 for portable ops. My main rigs for the past 5 years
are Flex rigs. I have the 5000/3000/1500
> and will be getting a 6500 soon as my shack rigs. With these rigs and PSDR,
your RX filter REMAINS CENTRED and when
> you tune around the band, you DON'T LOSE your averaging. This is how I like it
to be, and if Elecraft can achieve this
> in a firmware update, I would be very happy.
>
> 73
> John, ZS5J
>
>
> On 31 Jul 2015, at 2:56 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Hi Joe - Do you have signal averaging turned on to reduce the noise floor? If
you do, it has to stop averaging when the freq is being changed while tuning,
temporarily raising the noise floor slightly. It then re-starts multi-pass
averaging once you stop tuning. This is normal for signal averaging. I run with
averaging set =2 or 3 passes. When I tune I barely notice a small increase in
the noise floor.
>
> If you have a lot of local pulse noise, you might want to turn on the P3s NB
function to help.
>
> If Averaging is turned off, I can't think of a normal scenario where the noise
floor would go up when tuning the band. It certainly does not here.

>
> Anyone else have any ideas?
>
> 73,
>
> Eric
> /elecraft.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Administrator

In reply to this post by John Kramer

John,

The P3 and PX3 use entirely different interfaces to the radio. The P3 taps into the K3/K3S 8.2 MHz I.F., while the PX3 uses a baseband I/Q signal from the KX3. While both methods provide the basic benefits of a panadapter, the P3's implementation provides higher performance, using more expensive hardware, and is priced accordingly.

The P3 is incredibly smooth in its tuning and presentation, and the unit is widely regarded as one of best panadapters available. Averaging, fixed-tune mode, noise blanking, peak detection and its many other features are all free of any sort of tuning noise or artifacts.

If you're in "fixed-tune" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor moves across the screen, averaging information is preserved. There is no increase in the noise floor, no matter how fast you tune.

In "tracking" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor stays fixed at the center of the screen, averaging information is reset when you tune. This has always been the case, but I'll mention this to our panadapter design staff and see if it might be possible to preserve the averaging data in tracking mode.

In any case, I hope you can observe a P3 in action sometime.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jul 31, 2015, at 1:13 AM, John Kramer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think I know what Joe is getting at….and I agree with him, if I understand him correctly. When he refers to “noise floor”
> he means that he loses averaging when he tunes, resulting in the crazy spectrum display (what Joe refers to as noise).
>
> I haven’t seen or used a P3, but I bought my first Elecraft products 3 weeks ago - a KX3 and PX3. If the P3 behaves in the
> same manner as the PX3 then I can see what Joe is complaining about. Right out the box my PX3 had this frustrating
> feature of losing averaging the moment you spun the VFO on the KX3. I pointed this out to a local KX3/PX3 owner, and
> he told me to download the latest firmware which allows you to select “fixed mode” or “fixed track”. I downloaded the
> firmware. YES, it kinda fixes the problem….you can now tune the radio and KEEP the averaging….but the problem is
> that now your receive filter goes down the display as you tune. This is better than the previous method, however
> you now have your receive filter heavily offset from the centre of the display. You might tune down the band, with your
> RX filter at the bottom of the scale, and you are now unable to see much below, but you can see a huge chunk of
> the band above you.
>
> I bought the KX3 and PX3 for portable ops. My main rigs for the past 5 years are Flex rigs. I have the 5000/3000/1500
> and will be getting a 6500 soon as my shack rigs. With these rigs and PSDR, your RX filter REMAINS CENTRED and when
> you tune around the band, you DON’T LOSE your averaging. This is how I like it to be, and if Elecraft can achieve this
> in a firmware update, I would be very happy.
>
> 73
> John, ZS5J
>
>
>
>
>
> On 31 Jul 2015, at 2:56 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Joe - Do you have signal averaging turned on to reduce the noise floor? If you do, it has to stop averaging when the freq is being changed while tuning, temporarily raising the noise floor slightly. It then re-starts multi-pass averaging once you stop tuning. This is normal for signal averaging. I run with averaging set =2 or 3 passes. When I tune I barely notice a small increase in the noise floor.
>
> If you have a lot of local pulse noise, you might want to turn on the P3s NB function to help.
>
> If Averaging is turned off, I can't think of a normal scenario where the noise floor would go up when tuning the band. It certainly does not here.
>
> Anyone else have any ideas?
>
> 73,
>
> Eric
> /elecraft.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

John Kramer

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Wayne

Apologies, I have never seen a P3 in action before, I live too far away from locations
that have regular hamfests. Maybe I should go and watch some youtube clips.
I just thought the basic architecture in the P3 would be the same as my
PX3.
But, reading your last two paragraphs, tells me the issue I have with my PX3
also happens on the P3 - In tracking mode averaging info is reset the moment
you tune. I find this loss of averaging when tuning, to be totally counter
intuitive when trying to home in on a signal. It’s difficult to see a station,
and find where you are trying to tune to, when the display loses its averaging.

Thanks for the good work at Elecraft, and your quick response

73
John, ZS5J C91J A25J

On 31 Jul 2015, at 3:42 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

John,

The P3 and PX3 use entirely different interfaces to the radio. The P3 taps into the K3/K3S 8.2 MHz I.F., while the PX3 uses a baseband I/Q signal from the KX3. While both methods provide the basic benefits of a panadapter, the P3's implementation provides higher performance, using more expensive hardware, and is priced accordingly.

The P3 is incredibly smooth in its tuning and presentation, and the unit is widely regarded as one of best panadapters available. Averaging, fixed-tune mode, noise blanking, peak detection and its many other features are all free of any sort of tuning noise or artifacts.

If you're in "fixed-tune" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor moves across the screen, averaging information is preserved. There is no increase in the noise floor, no matter how fast you tune.

In "tracking" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor stays fixed at the center of the screen, averaging information is reset when you tune. This has always been the case, but I'll mention this to our panadapter design staff and see if it might be possible to preserve the averaging data in tracking mode.

In any case, I hope you can observe a P3 in action sometime.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jul 31, 2015, at 1:13 AM, John Kramer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

> It’s difficult to see a station, and find where you are trying to
> tune to, when the display loses itsaveraging.

As a long time user of the P3, I strenuously disagree with that
assessment.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-07-31 9:57 AM, John Kramer wrote:

> Wayne
>
> Apologies, I have never seen a P3 in action before, I live too far away from locations
> that have regular hamfests. Maybe I should go and watch some youtube clips.
> I just thought the basic architecture in the P3 would be the same as my
> PX3.
> But, reading your last two paragraphs, tells me the issue I have with my PX3
> also happens on the P3 - In tracking mode averaging info is reset the moment
> you tune. I find this loss of averaging when tuning, to be totally counter
> intuitive when trying to home in on a signal. It’s difficult to see a station,
> and find where you are trying to tune to, when the display loses its averaging.
>
> Thanks for the good work at Elecraft, and your quick response
>
> 73
> John, ZS5J C91J A25J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 31 Jul 2015, at 3:42 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> The P3 and PX3 use entirely different interfaces to the radio. The P3 taps into the K3/K3S 8.2 MHz I.F., while the PX3 uses a baseband I/Q signal from the KX3. While both methods provide the basic benefits of a panadapter, the P3's implementation provides higher performance, using more expensive hardware, and is priced accordingly.
>
> The P3 is incredibly smooth in its tuning and presentation, and the unit is widely regarded as one of best panadapters available. Averaging, fixed-tune mode, noise blanking, peak detection and its many other features are all free of any sort of tuning noise or artifacts.
>
> If you're in "fixed-tune" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor moves across the screen, averaging information is preserved. There is no increase in the noise floor, no matter how fast you tune.
>
> In "tracking" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor stays fixed at the center of the screen, averaging information is reset when you tune. This has always been the case, but I'll mention this to our panadapter design staff and see if it might be possible to preserve the averaging data in tracking mode.
>
> In any case, I hope you can observe a P3 in action sometime.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2015, at 1:13 AM, John Kramer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I think I know what Joe is getting at….and I agree with him, if I understand him correctly. When he refers to “noise floor”
>> he means that he loses averaging when he tunes, resulting in the crazy spectrum display (what Joe refers to as noise).
>>
>> I haven’t seen or used a P3, but I bought my first Elecraft products 3 weeks ago - a KX3 and PX3. If the P3 behaves in the
>> same manner as the PX3 then I can see what Joe is complaining about. Right out the box my PX3 had this frustrating
>> feature of losing averaging the moment you spun the VFO on the KX3. I pointed this out to a local KX3/PX3 owner, and
>> he told me to download the latest firmware which allows you to select “fixed mode” or “fixed track”. I downloaded the
>> firmware. YES, it kinda fixes the problem….you can now tune the radio and KEEP the averaging….but the problem is
>> that now your receive filter goes down the display as you tune. This is better than the previous method, however
>> you now have your receive filter heavily offset from the centre of the display. You might tune down the band, with your
>> RX filter at the bottom of the scale, and you are now unable to see much below, but you can see a huge chunk of
>> the band above you.
>>
>> I bought the KX3 and PX3 for portable ops. My main rigs for the past 5 years are Flex rigs. I have the 5000/3000/1500
>> and will be getting a 6500 soon as my shack rigs. With these rigs and PSDR, your RX filter REMAINS CENTRED and when
>> you tune around the band, you DON’T LOSE your averaging. This is how I like it to be, and if Elecraft can achieve this
>> in a firmware update, I would be very happy.
>>
>> 73
>> John, ZS5J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31 Jul 2015, at 2:56 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joe - Do you have signal averaging turned on to reduce the noise floor? If you do, it has to stop averaging when the freq is being changed while tuning, temporarily raising the noise floor slightly. It then re-starts multi-pass averaging once you stop tuning. This is normal for signal averaging. I run with averaging set =2 or 3 passes. When I tune I barely notice a small increase in the noise floor.
>>
>> If you have a lot of local pulse noise, you might want to turn on the P3s NB function to help.
>>
>> If Averaging is turned off, I can't think of a normal scenario where the noise floor would go up when tuning the band. It certainly does not here.
>>
>> Anyone else have any ideas?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Eric
>> /elecraft.com/
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

I agree with Joe. My usage of the P3 and the PX3
is 100% fixed-tune mode, and I find both the P3
and PX3 to work very well for me. They do differ
in amplitude scale in A-B comparisons, but this is
compensated for by scale adjustments.

I've never really found a situation where Tracking
mode is helpful, but maybe I'm missing something.

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/31/15 8:03 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>> It’s difficult to see a station, and find where
>> you are trying to
>> tune to, when the display loses itsaveraging.
>
> As a long time user of the P3, I strenuously
> disagree with that
> assessment.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-07-31 9:57 AM, John Kramer wrote:
>> Wayne
>>
>> Apologies, I have never seen a P3 in action
>> before, I live too far away from locations
>> that have regular hamfests. Maybe I should go
>> and watch some youtube clips.
>> I just thought the basic architecture in the P3
>> would be the same as my
>> PX3.
>> But, reading your last two paragraphs, tells me
>> the issue I have with my PX3
>> also happens on the P3 - In tracking mode
>> averaging info is reset the moment
>> you tune. I find this loss of averaging when
>> tuning, to be totally counter
>> intuitive when trying to home in on a signal.
>> It’s difficult to see a station,
>> and find where you are trying to tune to, when
>> the display loses its averaging.
>>
>> Thanks for the good work at Elecraft, and your
>> quick response
>>
>> 73
>> John, ZS5J C91J A25J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 31 Jul 2015, at 3:42 PM, Wayne Burdick
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> The P3 and PX3 use entirely different
>> interfaces to the radio. The P3 taps into the
>> K3/K3S 8.2 MHz I.F., while the PX3 uses a
>> baseband I/Q signal from the KX3. While both
>> methods provide the basic benefits of a
>> panadapter, the P3's implementation provides
>> higher performance, using more expensive
>> hardware, and is priced accordingly.
>>
>> The P3 is incredibly smooth in its tuning and
>> presentation, and the unit is widely regarded
>> as one of best panadapters available.
>> Averaging, fixed-tune mode, noise blanking,
>> peak detection and its many other features are
>> all free of any sort of tuning noise or artifacts.
>>
>> If you're in "fixed-tune" mode, where the
>> VFO/filter cursor moves across the screen,
>> averaging information is preserved. There is no
>> increase in the noise floor, no matter how fast
>> you tune.
>>
>> In "tracking" mode, where the VFO/filter cursor
>> stays fixed at the center of the screen,
>> averaging information is reset when you tune.
>> This has always been the case, but I'll mention
>> this to our panadapter design staff and see if
>> it might be possible to preserve the averaging
>> data in tracking mode.
>>
>> In any case, I hope you can observe a P3 in
>> action sometime.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>> On Jul 31, 2015, at 1:13 AM, John Kramer
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I think I know what Joe is getting at….and I
>>> agree with him, if I understand him correctly.
>>> When he refers to “noise floor”
>>> he means that he loses averaging when he
>>> tunes, resulting in the crazy spectrum display
>>> (what Joe refers to as noise).
>>>
>>> I haven’t seen or used a P3, but I bought my
>>> first Elecraft products 3 weeks ago - a KX3
>>> and PX3. If the P3 behaves in the
>>> same manner as the PX3 then I can see what Joe
>>> is complaining about. Right out the box my PX3
>>> had this frustrating
>>> feature of losing averaging the moment you
>>> spun the VFO on the KX3. I pointed this out to
>>> a local KX3/PX3 owner, and
>>> he told me to download the latest firmware
>>> which allows you to select “fixed mode” or
>>> “fixed track”. I downloaded the
>>> firmware. YES, it kinda fixes the problem….you
>>> can now tune the radio and KEEP the
>>> averaging….but the problem is
>>> that now your receive filter goes down the
>>> display as you tune. This is better than the
>>> previous method, however
>>> you now have your receive filter heavily
>>> offset from the centre of the display. You
>>> might tune down the band, with your
>>> RX filter at the bottom of the scale, and you
>>> are now unable to see much below, but you can
>>> see a huge chunk of
>>> the band above you.
>>>
>>> I bought the KX3 and PX3 for portable ops. My
>>> main rigs for the past 5 years are Flex rigs.
>>> I have the 5000/3000/1500
>>> and will be getting a 6500 soon as my shack
>>> rigs. With these rigs and PSDR, your RX filter
>>> REMAINS CENTRED and when
>>> you tune around the band, you DON’T LOSE your
>>> averaging. This is how I like it to be, and if
>>> Elecraft can achieve this
>>> in a firmware update, I would be very happy.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> John, ZS5J

John Kramer

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Phil

So….you’re okay using “fixed tune” where your VFO window moves off-centre, and heads off
towards the edge of the screen - at this point you can’t see whats ahead of you because you’re
near the edge of the pan adapter. If you go any further, you fall off the edge, and it plonks you back
in the centre, the waterfall refreshes, and you lose your waterfall history. That’s okay ?

Wouldn’t it be better if your VFO window remained centred in the pan adapter, even if you tuned up
the band ? so you can see equally whats going on above and below your frequency ? Yes, you can
do that in tracking mode…but then we get back to the issue of it resetting and removing the
averaging feature.
If you haven’t tried an SDR radio that can do both - “fixed" and “tracking" at the same time, perhaps
you should try, and see what you’re missing out on. If the clever guys at Elecraft can come up with
a firmware update that will allow you to do both…simultaneously, would you choose to rather have your
VFO window jump off the edge every time you get to the end, as in “fixed tune” ? Perhaps they could
give us a menu choice of all three options - “fixed tune”, “tracking” and “fixed tracking”. Would you stifle
the opportunity of having this menu choice ?

I better stop, I’m starting to feel like I’m repeating myself :-) Have a good weekend fella’s.

73
John

On 31 Jul 2015, at 5:36 PM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with Joe. My usage of the P3 and the PX3 is 100% fixed-tune mode, and I find both the P3 and PX3 to work very well for me. They do differ in amplitude scale in A-B comparisons, but this is compensated for by scale adjustments.

I've never really found a situation where Tracking mode is helpful, but maybe I'm missing something.

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/31/15 8:03 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>> It’s difficult to see a station, and find where you are trying to
>> tune to, when the display loses itsaveraging.
>
> As a long time user of the P3, I strenuously disagree with that
> assessment.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-07-31 9:57 AM, John Kramer wrote:
>> Wayne
>>
>> Apologies, I have never seen a P3 in action before, I live too far away from locations
>> that have regular hamfests. Maybe I should go and watch some youtube clips.
>> I just thought the basic architecture in the P3 would be the same as my
>> PX3.
>> But, reading your last two paragraphs, tells me the issue I have with my PX3
>> also happens on the P3 - In tracking mode averaging info is reset the moment
>> you tune. I find this loss of averaging when tuning, to be totally counter
>> intuitive when trying to home in on a signal. It’s difficult to see a station,
>> and find where you are trying to tune to, when the display loses its averaging.
>>
>> Thanks for the good work at Elecraft, and your quick response
>>
>> 73
>> John, ZS5J C91J A25J
>>
>>
>>
>>

dmb@lightstream.net

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Hello John,

> Phil
>
> Soâ¦.youâre okay using âfixed tuneâ where your VFO window moves
> off-centre, and heads off
> towards the edge of the screen - at this point you canât see whats ahead
> of you because youâre
> near the edge of the pan adapter. If you go any further, you fall off the
> edge, and it plonks you back
> in the centre, the waterfall refreshes, and you lose your waterfall
> history. Thatâs okay ?

Not only okay, it's what I prefer. As primarily a CW op, I tend to stick
to the bottom 30-40 KHz of any given band. In my case, I don't care what's
above the top of that range. What I DO care about is the positions of the
stations within that 30/40 KHz window. After a few minutes of operation, I
get to know who is where, (think of it as a band context) and when a new
station appears, it is more easily noticed. As I tune around within that
30 KHz segment, the waterfall history of all signals is preserved. It's
all about a stable context.

>
> Wouldnât it be better if your VFO window remained centred in the pan
> adapter, even if you tuned up
> the band ? so you can see equally whats going on above and below your
> frequency ?

Not for me.

Yes, you can
> do that in tracking modeâ¦but then we get back to the issue of it
> resetting and removing the
> averaging feature.

> If you havenât tried an SDR radio that can do both - âfixed" and
> âtracking" at the same time, perhaps
> you should try, and see what youâre missing out on.

Been there -- and still have an SDR1000, FLEX-5000A, FLEX6300, and HPSDR
(original TAPR cards) sitting around here. The original PowerSDR's
limitation of moving the band around while keeping the signal centered was
a continual irritation. Once PowerSDR was re-written and the "CTUN"
function was added, HPSDR and ANAN users were able to tune across a
stationary band segment without losing context. I note that Flex Radio
chose that method of tuning for SmartSDR and the 6000 series as well. I
agree completely with Jim's (K9YC) last paragraph where he states that
"The P3 is a VERY versatile instrument" -- and I've spent considerable
time using and operating most of the significant alternatives.

If the clever guys
> at Elecraft can come up with
> a firmware update that will allow you to do bothâ¦simultaneously, would
> you choose to rather have your
> VFO window jump off the edge every time you get to the end, as in âfixed
> tuneâ ?

Yes, I would for the reasons stated above.

Perhaps they could
> give us a menu choice of all three options - âfixed tuneâ,
> âtrackingâ and âfixed trackingâ. Would you stifle
> the opportunity of having this menu choice ?
>

More choices and options would be great, though I can appreciate that this
would not be a trivial task (that never stops those clever Elecraft guys
though)

> I better stop, Iâm starting to feel like Iâm repeating myself :-) Have
> a good weekend fellaâs.
>
> 73
> John
>

73, Dale
WA8SRA

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Administrator

One minor note: There are three different P3 and PX3 fix mode tuning defaults
you can select in the menu for when you tune past the edge of the display:
slide, 1/2 screen and full screen jump.

I generally prefer the slide mode as it is less jarring and drags the window
incrementally in the direction you are tuning.

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 7/31/2015 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hello John,
>
>> Phil
>>
>> Soâ€¦.youâ€™re okay using â€œfixed tuneâ€� where your VFO window moves
>> off-centre, and heads off
>> towards the edge of the screen - at this point you canâ€™t see whats ahead
>> of you because youâ€™re
>> near the edge of the pan adapter. If you go any further, you fall off the
>> edge, and it plonks you back
>> in the centre, the waterfall refreshes, and you lose your waterfall
>> history. Thatâ€™s okay ?
>

John Kramer

Re: P3 vs SDR-IQ

Eric

Thanks for that info, I would like to try that out - I must have missed that in the manual….unless it was
incorporated in the new firmware, and I didn’t see it in the release notes.
Thanks for the heads up

73
John, ZS5J

On 31 Jul 2015, at 9:20 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

One minor note: There are three different P3 and PX3 fix mode tuning defaults you can select in the menu for when you tune past the edge of the display: slide, 1/2 screen and full screen jump.

I generally prefer the slide mode as it is less jarring and drags the window incrementally in the direction you are tuning.

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 7/31/2015 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

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