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Per-Band Power Setting Issue

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Tony-3

Per-Band Power Setting Issue

All:

I purchased the AUX cable for the K3S / KPA500 to use the per-band power
option so the drive levels would stay put when the amp was in operation.

After setting the proper drive level for each band, I noticed that the
settings I chose were lost if I turned the power up on the K3S.

I thought the per-band settings might go back to their presets if I
cycled the KPA500 from operate to standby and back, but that didn't work.

If the per-band drive levels are easily bypassed, it defeats the whole
purpose of having this option.

Am I missing something?

Tony

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jh3sif

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

Do you set the proper drive level per band while KPA500 is in OPER mode?

How do you power off your K3S?
When POWER button is pushed for power-off, K3S saves the setting in internal non-volatile memory. Otherwise, any setting changes you made after powered on will be discarded.

73 de JH3SIF, Keith

> 2020/03/12 16:36、Tony <[hidden email]>のメール:
>
> All:
>
> I purchased the AUX cable for the K3S / KPA500 to use the per-band power option so the drive levels would stay put when the amp was in operation.
>
> After setting the proper drive level for each band, I noticed that the settings I chose were lost if I turned the power up on the K3S.
>
> I thought the per-band settings might go back to their presets if I cycled the KPA500 from operate to standby and back, but that didn't work.
>
> If the per-band drive levels are easily bypassed, it defeats the whole purpose of having this option.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by Tony-3

If one sets the power correct with the amp in OPER mode, there is no reason to make further power adjustments. The system is just doing as you have instructed it to do.

When the amp is in STBY the power reverts to that for barefoot normally 100 watts or the last value set for that mode.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 2:50 AM, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All:
>
> I purchased the AUX cable for the K3S / KPA500 to use the per-band power option so the drive levels would stay put when the amp was in operation.
>
> After setting the proper drive level for each band, I noticed that the settings I chose were lost if I turned the power up on the K3S.
>
> I thought the per-band settings might go back to their presets if I cycled the KPA500 from operate to standby and back, but that didn't work.
>
> If the per-band drive levels are easily bypassed, it defeats the whole purpose of having this option.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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David Box-2

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by Tony-3

David Box-2

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by Tony-3

The statement "I thought the per-band settings might go back to their
presets ..."

The misconception is that there are presets and there are NOT, the K3s
stores the last set power for that band/Amp Mode. The "presets" are the
last power setting the operator made either manually or via
software/macro based on the amplifier mode (OPER/STBY). IF you adjust
the K3s power then you changed the "preset" for the amplifier mode/Band .

Below is the response I got from Elecraft support on this issue, just
substitute operator for macro, I have edited to make the point.

de Dave K5MWR

Power Set/Per Band is activated at the time of a band change. If your
macro/*OPERATOR PWR ADJUST* runs after the band change, the
macro*/OPERATOR* dominates--and vice versa. (The last one rules, in
other words). Similarly, if the amplifier changes from STBY to OPER
after the macro*/OPERATOR* runs, the power will change to the stored
OPER power level.

Note that it is likely that if your macro*/OPERATOR* sets a power level,
that level will become the new default power for either the K3's STBY or
OPER transmit level, depending upon which mode the K3/amplifier is at
the time the macro*/OPERATOR* runs. To use even more words (hi), if the
amp is in OPER on 20m and you run a macro*/OPERATOR* setting TX power to
75W, that will be the stored power level--whether you transmit or not.
The next time the K3 is on 20m and the amplifier is switched to OPER
mode, the K3 will return to that last-used AMP = OPER mode power level
of 75 W. (And the amp will throw an overdrive fault when you transmit).

On 3/12/2020 02:36, Tony wrote:

> All:
>
> I purchased the AUX cable for the K3S / KPA500 to use the per-band
> power option so the drive levels would stay put when the amp was in
> operation.
>
> After setting the proper drive level for each band, I noticed that the
> settings I chose were lost if I turned the power up on the K3S.
>
> I thought the per-band settings might go back to their presets if I
> cycled the KPA500 from operate to standby and back, but that didn't work.
>
> If the per-band drive levels are easily bypassed, it defeats the whole
> purpose of having this option.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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ANDY DURBIN

Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by Tony-3

"The misconception is that there are presets and there are NOT, the K3s stores the last set power for that band/Amp Mode. The "presets" are the last power setting the operator made either manually or via software/macro based on the amplifier mode (OPER/STBY). IF you adjust the K3s power then you changed the "preset" for the amplifier mode/Band ."

That scheme seems to be set up to trap the operator. I chose to hard code the band power limits and to limit the range of manual adjustment to 120% of band max power limit when KPA500 OPER is active. That scheme allows me to make any reasonable power adjustment for the current operating situation but I revert to the hard coded power settings on band change.

I could of course change my hard coded values to be user adjustable presets. However, I have not needed to change them for a long time so I didn't think the extra coding effort was justified.

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

The system operates quite well and reliably as designed.   The radio
remembers the last power setting when the amp was in OPER mode.   When
switching from STBY to OPER the power value is set per the last value
used.    I find turning the amp off and on has no affect on this.

Once the correct power value is set for the amp in OPER mode and for the
individual band, I find no need to change the power setting. If one has
it correct....... then changing it would seem to make it no longer
correct. This makes no sense to me.

In my case, 18 to 25 watts, depending on band, is the value of power
used to drive the amp to 500 watts rated output.   Except for 30M where
power value is 10 watts to comply with the 200 watt band power
limitation.   In either case, I see no reason to increase drive power as
this would most likely overdrive the amp.   All values were determined
using a reliable external power meter and 50 ohm dummy load.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/12/2020 9:53 AM, Andy Durbin wrote:

> "The misconception is that there are presets and there are NOT, the K3s stores the last set power for that band/Amp Mode. The "presets" are the last power setting the operator made either manually or via software/macro based on the amplifier mode (OPER/STBY). IF you adjust the K3s power then you changed the "preset" for the amplifier mode/Band ."
>
> That scheme seems to be set up to trap the operator. I chose to hard code the band power limits and to limit the range of manual adjustment to 120% of band max power limit when KPA500 OPER is active. That scheme allows me to make any reasonable power adjustment for the current operating situation but I revert to the hard coded power settings on band change.
>
> I could of course change my hard coded values to be user adjustable presets. However, I have not needed to change them for a long time so I didn't think the extra coding effort was justified.
>
> 73,
> Andy, k3wyc
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ANDY DURBIN

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

"Once the correct power value is set for the amp in OPER mode and for the individual band, I find no need to change the power setting. If one has it correct....... then changing it would seem to make it no longer correct. This makes no sense to me."

Your concept seems to be that the correct power is maximum power. What ever happened to the idea of using minimum power required to make the QSO?

I seldom want to use maximum power for FT8 mode but, yes, sometimes I do. Because I work a lot of FT8 I coded a separate set of power settings for that mode. These setting are invoked when my option "Set FT8 power" is enabled. I can turn up the wick if I need to but it won't change the stored FT8 power settings or the stored band max power settings.

73,
Andy, k3wyc

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Tony-3

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

All:

How difficult would it be to implement a power limit option through
firmware to prevent exceeding per-band drive levels when the amp is on?

A similar option is currently available on the K3S for transverter power
limits so it seems possible.

Tony

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

Doubtful. Wayne is awfully busy on other projects.

We would not want to have fixed-in-firmware drive limits - KPA500s vary in their needed drive level. Some need more power than others for drive. For example my older KPA500 (actually the first one) needs 35 to 40 watts to drive it to 500 watts, while my new one needs only 20 watts. Also, the same limit may not apply to the KPA1500 (which needs more drive power).

Once you set the drive level for each band you will only need to change it when you change the output power because of mode or something else that causes you to limit your output power. I rarely change mine at all.

Try it and I think you will see it works very well as it is now.

73!
Jack, W6FB

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All:
>
> How difficult would it be to implement a power limit option through firmware to prevent exceeding per-band drive levels when the amp is on?
>
> A similar option is currently available on the K3S for transverter power limits so it seems possible.
>
> Tony
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Nr4c

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by Tony-3

What wrong with the system already in place. We asvopetators need to shoulder some responsibility in the operation of our radios.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Tony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All:
>
> How difficult would it be to implement a power limit option through firmware to prevent exceeding per-band drive levels when the amp is on?
>
> A similar option is currently available on the K3S for transverter power limits so it seems possible.
>
> Tony
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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john@kk9a.com

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by Tony-3

I agree with Bill, I always check the transceiver's power setting when
switching in an amp. I had 200 watt Yaesu transceivers before buying
Elecraft so I learned to be cautious. The only thing tricky about my
K3S is that since the same knob does multiple functions I have
accidentally changed my compression setting on occasion.

John KK9A

Nr4c wrote:

What wrong with the system already in place. We asvopetators need to
shoulder some responsibility in the operation of our radios.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Tony <dxdx at optonline.net> wrote:
>
> All:
>
> How difficult would it be to implement a power limit option through
> firmware to prevent exceeding per-band drive levels when the amp is
> on?
>
> A similar option is currently available on the K3S for transverter
> power limits so it seems possible.
>
> Tony K2MO

Bill Breeden-2

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

I do the same. That being said, I am very satisfied with the power
setting feature in the K3. I am responsible for the power setting on
each band, with the KPA500 in both Operate and Standby modes, and the
radio retains my settings until I change them. Great feature!

73,

Bill - NA5DX

On 3/13/2020 6:45 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

>
> I agree with Bill, I always check the transceiver's power setting when
> switching in an amp. I had 200 watt Yaesu transceivers before buying
> Elecraft so I learned to be cautious. The only thing tricky about my
> K3S is that since the same knob does multiple functions I have
> accidentally changed my compression setting on occasion.
>
>
> John KK9A
>
> Nr4c wrote:
>
> What wrong with the system already in place. We asvopetators need to
> shoulder some responsibility in the operation of our radios.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>
>
>> On Mar 12, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Tony <dxdx at optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> All:
>>
>> How difficult would it be to implement a power limit option through
>> firmware to prevent exceeding per-band drive levels when the amp is on?
>>
>> A similar option is currently available on the K3S for transverter
>> power limits so it seems possible.
>>
>> Tony K2MO
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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ANDY DURBIN

Re: Per-Band Power Setting Issue

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

"How difficult would it be to implement a power limit option through firmware to prevent exceeding per-band drive levels when the amp is on?"

From what I have heard about Elecraft's power management scheme it would not be difficult at all. However, writing the code is only a small part of making any change.

If the user took responsibility for setting appropriate OPER mode power levels for each band then the only changes to the firmware would be:

1. Don't allow anything (macro, serial command, power set control) to exceed that pre-defined power by more than a pre-defined percentage.
2. Don't save any power adjustment to power memory unless an overt action is taken. (Perhaps user has to unlock power settings).

Neither of these changes would have any impact on users who like the way it works now. They would simply keep the power settings they have stored and not ever change them.

73,
Andy, k3wyc

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