Performance of internal USB sound system compared to external one?

[Ken Arck]

Admittedly, I am a new owner of the K3s and am still learning my way
around it. I bought it mainly for use an IF radio for my DEMI 2 mtr
xvtr, which I use for EME work. It came highly recommended as one.
Prior to the K3s, my EME workhorse radio was a Kenwood TS2K which
actually worked "fine" but as most are. I am always looking to
improve my station. I used a RigBlaster as the sound card interface
with the computer used.

I am using the USB port for everything - audio in/out, PTT, CAT
control, etc. along with some VSP software. I also run a splitter on
the RX line from the EME array with one side going to the DEMI xvtr
and the other to a FuncubePro+ dongle. The K3s feeds WJST and the
FCD+ feed MAP65, running side-by-side.

Trying NOT to drag this out too much longer, it seems to me the
K3s/DEMI setup simply doesn't decode as well as the TS2K did (does?)
and I'm wondering if anyone has real world experience in comparing
how well the USB audio method versus the IN/OUT and the Rigblaster
interface to the computer's soundcard. The FCD+ decodes MUCH better
than the K3s/DEMI setup as I currently have it whereas the TS2K
seemed to be better on the weaker signals.

Maybe I just don't have something setup correctly.....

TIA

Ken

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
we offer complete repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
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[Robert .]

also curious if anyone has used the USB audio into MMTTY or 2Tone for
decoding RTTY and your report ?
73 Robert W5AJ


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken
Arck
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 8:27 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared to
external one?

Admittedly, I am a new owner of the K3s and am still learning my way around
it. I bought it mainly for use an IF radio for my DEMI 2 mtr xvtr, which I
use for EME work. It came highly recommended as one.
Prior to the K3s, my EME workhorse radio was a Kenwood TS2K which actually
worked "fine" but as most are. I am always looking to improve my station. I
used a RigBlaster as the sound card interface with the computer used.

I am using the USB port for everything - audio in/out, PTT, CAT control,
etc. along with some VSP software. I also run a splitter on the RX line from
the EME array with one side going to the DEMI xvtr and the other to a
FuncubePro+ dongle. The K3s feeds WJST and the
FCD+ feed MAP65, running side-by-side.

Trying NOT to drag this out too much longer, it seems to me the K3s/DEMI
setup simply doesn't decode as well as the TS2K did (does?) and I'm
wondering if anyone has real world experience in comparing how well the USB
audio method versus the IN/OUT and the Rigblaster interface to the
computer's soundcard. The FCD+ decodes MUCH better than the K3s/DEMI setup
as I currently have it whereas the TS2K seemed to be better on the weaker
signals.

Maybe I just don't have something setup correctly.....

TIA

Ken

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and
accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater
packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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[jeff stai-2]

The built-in sound card in the K3S works just fine for RTTY decode - MMTTY
and 2Tone - but RTTY doesn't require high performance from a sound card.
For more demanding modes I can't comment, but I would definitely expect the
K3s to meet or exceed the specs of the Rigblaster, which is nothing
special. Ken, I would look into your setup in detail. If you can contrive
to do a real time side by side test where you can observe both decodes at
the same time that would give you confidence that there is really something
wrong, or not.

73 jeff wk6i


On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Robert Wood <[hidden email]> wrote:

> also curious if anyone has used the USB audio into MMTTY or 2Tone for
> decoding RTTY and your report ?
> 73 Robert W5AJ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken
> Arck
> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 8:27 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared to
> external one?
>
> Admittedly, I am a new owner of the K3s and am still learning my way around
> it. I bought it mainly for use an IF radio for my DEMI 2 mtr xvtr, which I
> use for EME work. It came highly recommended as one.
> Prior to the K3s, my EME workhorse radio was a Kenwood TS2K which actually
> worked "fine" but as most are. I am always looking to improve my station. I
> used a RigBlaster as the sound card interface with the computer used.
>
> I am using the USB port for everything - audio in/out, PTT, CAT control,
> etc. along with some VSP software. I also run a splitter on the RX line
> from
> the EME array with one side going to the DEMI xvtr and the other to a
> FuncubePro+ dongle. The K3s feeds WJST and the
> FCD+ feed MAP65, running side-by-side.
>
> Trying NOT to drag this out too much longer, it seems to me the K3s/DEMI
> setup simply doesn't decode as well as the TS2K did (does?) and I'm
> wondering if anyone has real world experience in comparing how well the USB
> audio method versus the IN/OUT and the Rigblaster interface to the
> computer's soundcard. The FCD+ decodes MUCH better than the K3s/DEMI setup
> as I currently have it whereas the TS2K seemed to be better on the weaker
> signals.
>
> Maybe I just don't have something setup correctly.....
>
> TIA
>
> Ken
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and
> accessories.
> http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
> Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater
> packages!
> AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
> http://www.irlp.net
> "We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
Jeff Stai ~ [hidden email]
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
Facebook ~ http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak
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[Ed Muns]

I've used the KIO3B CODEC for over 6 months in contests and DXing with
MMTTY, 2Tone and GRITTY.  Anecdotally, it is as good as or better than any
internal or external PC soundcard I've ever used for these three decoders.

For PSK, JT65 and other digital modes I don't know how it stacks up with the
high dynamic range soundcards.  Perhaps the K3 CODEC has enough dynamic
range, but I've not seen any evaluation of that.

One issue I have with the K3S CODEC is that Windows installs a monaural
level control rather than separate left and right channel level controls for
the two receive audio streams.  There also seems to be some kind of AGC
action going on where the levels actually change over time.  This appears to
be eliminated by the chip manufacturer's CODEC driver that I found online,
though it is still monaural.

Ed W0YK
_____________________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
Wood
Sent: 14 June, 2016 11:50
To: 'Ken Arck'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared
toexternal one?

also curious if anyone has used the USB audio into MMTTY or 2Tone for
decoding RTTY and your report ?
73 Robert W5AJ


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken
Arck
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 8:27 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared to
external one?

Admittedly, I am a new owner of the K3s and am still learning my way around
it. I bought it mainly for use an IF radio for my DEMI 2 mtr xvtr, which I
use for EME work. It came highly recommended as one.
Prior to the K3s, my EME workhorse radio was a Kenwood TS2K which actually
worked "fine" but as most are. I am always looking to improve my station. I
used a RigBlaster as the sound card interface with the computer used.

I am using the USB port for everything - audio in/out, PTT, CAT control,
etc. along with some VSP software. I also run a splitter on the RX line from
the EME array with one side going to the DEMI xvtr and the other to a
FuncubePro+ dongle. The K3s feeds WJST and the
FCD+ feed MAP65, running side-by-side.

Trying NOT to drag this out too much longer, it seems to me the K3s/DEMI
setup simply doesn't decode as well as the TS2K did (does?) and I'm
wondering if anyone has real world experience in comparing how well the USB
audio method versus the IN/OUT and the Rigblaster interface to the
computer's soundcard. The FCD+ decodes MUCH better than the K3s/DEMI setup
as I currently have it whereas the TS2K seemed to be better on the weaker
signals.

Maybe I just don't have something setup correctly.....

TIA

Ken


______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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[jeff stai-2]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ed Muns <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One issue I have with the K3S CODEC is that Windows installs a monaural
> level control rather than separate left and right channel level controls
> for
> the two receive audio streams.  There also seems to be some kind of AGC
> action going on where the levels actually change over time.  This appears
> to
> be eliminated by the chip manufacturer's CODEC driver that I found online,
> though it is still monaural.
>

You still have a left and right channel, you just can't set the levels
independently, correct?

I haven't seen the AGC issue, but maybe I haven't noticed the levels
changing very much. Who is the chip mfr?

Thanks! - jeff wk6i


--
Jeff Stai ~ [hidden email]
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
Facebook ~ http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Message delivered to [hidden email]

[Ed Muns]

Yes, there are two receive audio channels for the Main and Sub receivers in
the CODEC.  The Windows driver level control adjusts both channels
identically.  If there is any unbalance or for some reason you want to
independently adjust the two channels, it can't be done.  The driver
communication with Windows should trigger the stereo level control, but
doesn't.

 

The CODEC is the TI PCM-2902.

 

Ed W0YK

 

  _____  

From: Jeff Stai [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 14 June, 2016 13:15
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Robert Wood; Ken Arck; Elecraft Mailer
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared
toexternal one?

 

 

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ed Muns <[hidden email]> wrote:

One issue I have with the K3S CODEC is that Windows installs a monaural
level control rather than separate left and right channel level controls for
the two receive audio streams.  There also seems to be some kind of AGC
action going on where the levels actually change over time.  This appears to
be eliminated by the chip manufacturer's CODEC driver that I found online,
though it is still monaural.

 

You still have a left and right channel, you just can't set the levels
independently, correct?

 

I haven't seen the AGC issue, but maybe I haven't noticed the levels
changing very much. Who is the chip mfr?

 

Thanks! - jeff wk6i

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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[Guy Olinger K2AV]

To be strict, a stereo gain control (volume is a misnomer) will adjust
both channels equally, then if supplied, there is a balance control
which creates a ratio of left to right channel gain which is
maintained regardless of the gain control.

What you seem to be asking for is the ability to treat left and right
as if they were independent channels, which I would guess is very rare
in drivers.

"Volume" depends on channel gain and a lot of other things. At the
input of various end user devices, the volume range is specified. The
volume coming from upstream devices can depend on a lot of things, RF
gain, AGC settings, conditions, and possibly others in addition to
codec channel gain.

Why would you need a stereo balance control for use in data modes?
Dual RX and "diversity" decode? If a K3 dual RX diversity kind of
operation, why wouldn't equal gain on left and right be required?

Regardless, 73 and good luck,

Guy K2AV

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Ed Muns <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, there are two receive audio channels for the Main and Sub receivers in
> the CODEC.  The Windows driver level control adjusts both channels
> identically.  If there is any unbalance or for some reason you want to
> independently adjust the two channels, it can't be done.  The driver
> communication with Windows should trigger the stereo level control, but
> doesn't.
>
>
>
> The CODEC is the TI PCM-2902.
>
>
>
> Ed W0YK
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: Jeff Stai [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 14 June, 2016 13:15
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Robert Wood; Ken Arck; Elecraft Mailer
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared
> toexternal one?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ed Muns <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One issue I have with the K3S CODEC is that Windows installs a monaural
> level control rather than separate left and right channel level controls for
> the two receive audio streams.  There also seems to be some kind of AGC
> action going on where the levels actually change over time.  This appears to
> be eliminated by the chip manufacturer's CODEC driver that I found online,
> though it is still monaural.
>
>
>
> You still have a left and right channel, you just can't set the levels
> independently, correct?
>
>
>
> I haven't seen the AGC issue, but maybe I haven't noticed the levels
> changing very much. Who is the chip mfr?
>
>
>
> Thanks! - jeff wk6i
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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[Ed Muns]

All my other Windows sound devices with two channels have independent level
controls, one for each channel, plus the ability to link them together and
adjust equally.

For whatever reason, I've often found that I need a different level setting
to set the no-signal baseline in the decoders for each receiver.  In theory,
perhaps that shouldn't be necessary but in practice it is.

Ed W0YK

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger
K2AV
Sent: 14 June, 2016 14:24
To: Ed Muns
Cc: Jeff Stai; Elecraft Mailer
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared
toexternal one?

To be strict, a stereo gain control (volume is a misnomer) will adjust
both channels equally, then if supplied, there is a balance control
which creates a ratio of left to right channel gain which is
maintained regardless of the gain control.

What you seem to be asking for is the ability to treat left and right
as if they were independent channels, which I would guess is very rare
in drivers.

"Volume" depends on channel gain and a lot of other things. At the
input of various end user devices, the volume range is specified. The
volume coming from upstream devices can depend on a lot of things, RF
gain, AGC settings, conditions, and possibly others in addition to
codec channel gain.

Why would you need a stereo balance control for use in data modes?
Dual RX and "diversity" decode? If a K3 dual RX diversity kind of
operation, why wouldn't equal gain on left and right be required?

Regardless, 73 and good luck,

Guy K2AV

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Ed Muns <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes, there are two receive audio channels for the Main and Sub receivers
in

> the CODEC.  The Windows driver level control adjusts both channels
> identically.  If there is any unbalance or for some reason you want to
> independently adjust the two channels, it can't be done.  The driver
> communication with Windows should trigger the stereo level control, but
> doesn't.
>
> The CODEC is the TI PCM-2902.
>
> Ed W0YK
>   _____
>
> From: Jeff Stai [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 14 June, 2016 13:15
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Robert Wood; Ken Arck; Elecraft Mailer
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared
> toexternal one?
>
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ed Muns <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One issue I have with the K3S CODEC is that Windows installs a monaural
> level control rather than separate left and right channel level controls

for
> the two receive audio streams.  There also seems to be some kind of AGC
> action going on where the levels actually change over time.  This appears
to

> be eliminated by the chip manufacturer's CODEC driver that I found online,
> though it is still monaural.
>
> You still have a left and right channel, you just can't set the levels
> independently, correct?
>
> I haven't seen the AGC issue, but maybe I haven't noticed the levels
> changing very much. Who is the chip mfr?
>
> Thanks! - jeff wk6i

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Message delivered to [hidden email]

[Ken Arck]

Hi Jeff

Doing a side-by-side is easy as I explained in my
original post. I can absolutely (and empirically)
show that the FCD+/Linrad/MAP65 combo decodes
JT65B much more reliably than does the K3S/DEMI
xvtr/USB CODECWSJT10 combination as currently
configured.  Whereas the TS2K/computer soundcard
(Realtek AC 97 based)/WSJT10 combo decodes JT65B
more reliably than the K3s combo. I haven't done
a TS2K and K3s combo side-by-side as I don't have the hardware to do so.

I was thinking about trying the In/Out
connections (via the RigBlaster) on the K3s to
see if the CODEC is the issue but I was wondering
if someone had already been down this road. Hence my question

Ken



At 12:02 PM 6/14/2016, Jeff Stai wrote:

>The built-in sound card in the K3S works just
>fine for RTTY decode - MMTTY and 2Tone - but
>RTTY doesn't require high performance from a
>sound card. For more demanding modes I can't
>comment, but I would definitely expect the K3s
>to meet or exceed the specs of the Rigblaster,
>which is nothing special. Ken, I would look into
>your setup in detail. If you can contrive to do
>a real time side by side test where you can
>observe both decodes at the same time that would
>give you confidence that there is really something wrong, or not.Â
>
>73 jeff wk6i
>
>
>On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Robert Wood
><<mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]> wrote:
>also curious if anyone has used the USB audio into MMTTY or 2Tone for
>decoding RTTY and your report ?
>73 Robert W5AJ
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken
>Arck
>Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2016 8:27 PM
>To: <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]
>Subject: [Elecraft] Performance of internal USB sound system compared to
>external one?
>
>Admittedly, I am a new owner of the K3s and am still learning my way around
>it. I bought it mainly for use an IF radio for my DEMI 2 mtr xvtr, which I
>use for EME work. It came highly recommended as one.
>Prior to the K3s, my EME workhorse radio was a Kenwood TS2K which actually
>worked "fine" but as most are. I am always looking to improve my station. I
>used a RigBlaster as the sound card interface with the computer used.
>
>I am using the USB port for everything - audio in/out, PTT, CAT control,
>etc. along with some VSP software. I also run a splitter on the RX line from
>the EME array with one side going to the DEMI xvtr and the other to a
>FuncubePro+ dongle. The K3s feeds WJST and the
>FCD+ feed MAP65, running side-by-side.
>
>Trying NOT to drag this out too much longer, it seems to me the K3s/DEMI
>setup simply doesn't decode as well as the TS2K did (does?) and I'm
>wondering if anyone has real world experience in comparing how well the USB
>audio method versus the IN/OUT and the Rigblaster interface to the
>computer's soundcard. The FCD+ decodes MUCH better than the K3s/DEMI setup
>as I currently have it whereas the TS2K seemed to be better on the weaker
>signals.
>
>Maybe I just don't have something setup correctly.....
>
>TIA
>
>Ken
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
>President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and
>accessories.
><http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/>http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
>Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater
>packages!
>AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
><http://www.irlp.net>http://www.irlp.net
>"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
><http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
><http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
>delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]
>
>______________________________________________________________
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>Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
><http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>--
>Jeff Stai ~ <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]
>Twisted Oak Winery ~ <http://www.twistedoak.com/>http://www.twistedoak.com/
>Facebook ~
><http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak>http://www.facebook.com/twistedoak

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
President and CTO - Arcom Communications
Makers of repeater controllers and accessories.
http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/
Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and
we offer complete repeater packages!
AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000
http://www.irlp.net
"We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!"
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[Mike Dodd]

On 6/14/2016 2:50 PM, Robert Wood wrote:
> also curious if anyone has used the USB audio into MMTTY or 2Tone for
> decoding RTTY and your report ?

I use the K3s internal USB sound card for RTTY with MMTTY, and PSK-31
with FLDigi.

It works fine, RX and TX, with both programs. Also, the MMTTY engine
integrated into N1MM+ contest logger works fine.

I have not used 2Tone.

--
73, Mike N4CF
Louisa County, VA USA
Elecraft K3s/100
Carolina Windom up 45'
http://n4cf.mdodd.com
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