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Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

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Harry_Yingst

Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

I have a recent K3 (2 months old) that has the KX144XV Two meter module
and the KXV144 Ref Lock. Today I installed the KBPF3 and some filters.

After installation I attempted to calibrate the TX Gain and it kept failing on 60 meters.

Through testing what I found is that if I connect the KSYN3 directly to the KREF3 and
not through the K144XV Ref Lock it will calibrate and appears to function correctly.

I am let to believe that either the KREF board is not putting out
enough signal or the KXV144 Ref Lock is loading the line to much.

Has anyone else seen this issue?

Thank you

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

Hi Harry,
Hope the info that follows will be useful.
I have made some research of how to make the internal K144XV Elecraft transverter be useful in contests.
Originally it was almost useless due to many parasitics all across the band even from S9 signals.
The stronger – the worse and there were a lot of them even here in KN29AU.
So in July, last year, during IARU R1 3-rd subregional VHF contest, the band was full of clones. HI HI.

Comparying the schematics of both internal and external Elecraft 144 transverters shows three major differences that could have caused the different dynamic performance of the internal one.
Firstly - the usage of three diode switching components in the Front-End chain up to the ADEX mixer.
Secondly - usage of MMIC instead of BFR96 in the LO amplifier stage.
Thirdly - the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD

Here are some findings and possible solutions.
1.Remove (do NOT install) the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD!
In this case transverter is using just its own Xtal generator and spirious signals caused, possibly, by leakage from the synthesizer are gone.
2. Bypass the input diode T/R input switch by using separate receiving path. Remove the shorting block from pin1-2 of the P3 connector and connect separate coax to pin2 – RF, pin3 – ground.
This requires adding some front-end filtering and RF relays in PA, LNA or wherever you like.
(I would have prefer to get rid of all diode switching in RX RF path but have no idea of RF relays small enough to fit into K144XV box).
I have tested this setup in September during IARU R1 VHF championship and compared to July's event it looked like day and night.

--
73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, EO90WF in 2014)
UARL Technical Committee
DXCC card checker (160 meters).

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5/3/14, Harry_Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

Subject: [Elecraft] Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 8:57 PM

I have a recent K3 (2 months old)
that has the KX144XV Two meter module
and the KXV144 Ref Lock. Today I installed the KBPF3 and
some filters.

After installation I attempted to calibrate the TX Gain and
it kept failing
on 60 meters.

Through testing what I found is that if I connect the KSYN3
directly to the
KREF3 and
not through the K144XV Ref Lock it will calibrate and
appears to function
correctly.

I am let to believe that either the KREF board is not
putting out
enough signal or the KXV144 Ref Lock is loading the line to
much.

Has anyone else seen this issue?

Thank you

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Possible-bad-KREF-or-K144XV-Ref-Lock-or-tp7588457.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

Thank you for the insight.

Last night I pulled the K3 back over to the workbench and probed the
lines coming to and from the ref lock board with a oscilloscope.
What I discovered is that the rear of the jack had pushed back out of the socket.
Once I corrected that everything worked fine.

On a side note: I have a nice Down east Microwave Transverter I built last fall.
Since I wanted to reduce the clutter so I went with the internal transverter.

________________________________
From: Vic Goncharsky <[hidden email]>
To: Harry_Yingst <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, May 4, 2014 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

Hi Harry,
Hope the info that follows will be useful.
I have made some research of how to make the internal K144XV Elecraft transverter be useful in contests.
Originally it was almost useless due to many parasitics all across the band even from S9 signals.
The stronger – the worse and there were a lot of them even here in KN29AU.
So in July, last year, during IARU R1 3-rd subregional VHF contest, the band was full of clones. HI HI.

Comparying the schematics of both internal and external Elecraft 144 transverters shows three major differences that could have caused the different dynamic performance of the internal one.
Firstly - the usage of three diode switching components in the Front-End chain up to the ADEX mixer.
Secondly - usage of MMIC instead of BFR96 in the LO amplifier stage.
Thirdly - the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD

Here are some findings and possible solutions.
1.Remove (do NOT install) the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD!
In this case transverter is using just its own Xtal generator and spirious signals caused, possibly, by leakage from the synthesizer are gone.
2. Bypass the input diode T/R input switch by using separate receiving path. Remove the shorting block from pin1-2 of the P3 connector and connect separate coax to pin2 – RF, pin3 – ground.
This requires adding some front-end filtering and RF relays in PA, LNA or wherever you like.
(I would have prefer to get rid of all diode switching in RX RF path but have no idea of RF relays small enough to fit into K144XV box).
I have tested this setup in September during IARU R1 VHF championship and compared to July's event it looked like day and night.

--
73, Victor Goncharsky US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests, EO90WF in 2014)
UARL Technical Committee
DXCC card checker (160 meters).

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5/3/14, Harry_Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

Subject: [Elecraft] Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, May 3, 2014, 8:57 PM

I have a recent K3 (2 months old)
that has the KX144XV Two meter module
and the KXV144 Ref Lock. Today I installed the KBPF3 and
some filters.

After installation I attempted to calibrate the TX Gain and
it kept failing
on 60 meters.

Through testing what I found is that if I connect the KSYN3
directly to the
KREF3 and
not through the K144XV Ref Lock it will calibrate and
appears to function
correctly.

I am let to believe that either the KREF board is not
putting out
enough signal or the KXV144 Ref Lock is loading the line to
much.

Has anyone else seen this issue?

Thank you

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Possible-bad-KREF-or-K144XV-Ref-Lock-or-tp7588457.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Peter g3smt

Re: Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Hi Victor,

Thanks for the update - most interesting.

I am using the K144XV in conjunction with the REFLock and found that
the crystal and its grounding was the problem. May I suggest that you
experiment with earthing the crystal can as suggested by Elecraft and /
or changing out the crystal.
As far as small RF relays are concerned I use the Teledyne TO5 can type
732 that will fit easily in the enclosure and have reasonable isolation
across the contacts.
I have not found any problems using MMICs and will continue to use
them. In fact I use a PGA103 in my masthead preamp without a problem.

Hope the above is of some help.

73

Peter
G3SMT

On 04/05/2014 09:28, Vic Goncharsky via Elecraft wrote:

> Hi Harry,
> Hope the info that follows will be useful.
> I have made some research of how to make the internal K144XV Elecraft transverter be useful in contests.
> Originally it was almost useless due to many parasitics all across the band even from S9 signals.
> The stronger – the worse and there were a lot of them even here in KN29AU.
> So in July, last year, during IARU R1 3-rd subregional VHF contest, the band was full of clones. HI HI.
>
> Comparying the schematics of both internal and external Elecraft 144 transverters shows three major differences that could have caused the different dynamic performance of the internal one.
> Firstly - the usage of three diode switching components in the Front-End chain up to the ADEX mixer.
> Secondly - usage of MMIC instead of BFR96 in the LO amplifier stage.
> Thirdly - the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD
>
> Here are some findings and possible solutions.
> 1.Remove (do NOT install) the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD!
> In this case transverter is using just its own Xtal generator and spirious signals caused, possibly, by leakage from the synthesizer are gone.
> 2. Bypass the input diode T/R input switch by using separate receiving path. Remove the shorting block from pin1-2 of the P3 connector and connect separate coax to pin2 – RF, pin3 – ground.
> This requires adding some front-end filtering and RF relays in PA, LNA or wherever you like.
> (I would have prefer to get rid of all diode switching in RX RF path but have no idea of RF relays small enough to fit into K144XV box).
> I have tested this setup in September during IARU R1 VHF championship and compared to July's event it looked like day and night.
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

Where did you see about Elecraft suggesting "earthing the crystal can"?

That is interesting

________________________________
From: Peter Torry <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2014 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

Hi Victor,

Thanks for the update - most interesting.

I am using the K144XV in conjunction with the REFLock and found that
the crystal and its grounding was the problem. May I suggest that you
experiment with earthing the crystal can as suggested by Elecraft and /
or changing out the crystal.
As far as small RF relays are concerned I use the Teledyne TO5 can type
732 that will fit easily in the enclosure and have reasonable isolation
across the contacts.
I have not found any problems using MMICs and will continue to use
them. In fact I use a PGA103 in my masthead preamp without a problem.

Hope the above is of some help.

73

Peter
G3SMT

On 04/05/2014 09:28, Vic Goncharsky via Elecraft wrote:

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???

In reply to this post by Peter g3smt

Hi Peter,
I'll try to play with the crystal (inside the K144XV, right?) In fact, I have, probably, have missed the Elecraft recommendations.
Just got RIGOL DSA815-TG 1.5 GHz Spectrum Analyzer so will be able to see the LO specrtum purity. Will let VHF folks know the results.
Regarding the MMIC, I was just referring to LO level difference at the mixer LO port.
Will check the relays info.
Thank you so much for your help and ideas!
73 Vic

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/5/14, Peter Torry <[hidden email]> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Possible bad KREF or K144XV Ref Lock or ???
To: [hidden email]
Date: Monday, May 5, 2014, 8:49 PM

Hi Victor,

Thanks for the update - most interesting.

I am using the K144XV in conjunction with the REFLock
and found that the crystal and its grounding was the
problem. May I suggest that you experiment with earthing the
crystal can as suggested by Elecraft and / or changing out
the crystal.
As far as small RF relays are concerned I use the Teledyne
TO5 can type 732 that will fit easily in the enclosure and
have reasonable isolation across the contacts.
I have not found any problems using MMICs and will continue
to use them. In fact I use a PGA103 in my masthead
preamp without a problem.

Hope the above is of some help.

73

Peter
G3SMT

On 04/05/2014 09:28, Vic Goncharsky via Elecraft wrote:
> Hi Harry,
> Hope the info that follows will be useful.
> I have made some research of how to make the internal
K144XV Elecraft transverter be useful in contests.
> Originally it was almost useless due to many parasitics
all across the band even from S9 signals.
> The stronger – the worse and there were a lot of them
even here in KN29AU.
> So in July, last year, during IARU R1 3-rd subregional
VHF contest, the band was full of clones. HI HI.
>
> Comparying the schematics of both internal and external
Elecraft 144 transverters shows three major differences that
could have caused the different dynamic performance of the
internal one.
> Firstly - the usage of three diode switching components
in the Front-End chain up to the ADEX mixer.
> Secondly - usage of MMIC instead of BFR96 in the LO
amplifier stage.
> Thirdly - the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD
>
> Here are some findings and possible solutions.
> 1.Remove (do NOT install) the K144XV PHASE LOCK BOARD!
> In this case transverter is using just its own Xtal
generator and spirious signals caused, possibly, by leakage
from the synthesizer are gone.
> 2. Bypass the input diode T/R input switch by using
separate receiving path. Remove the shorting block from
pin1-2 of the P3 connector and connect separate coax to pin2
– RF, pin3 – ground.
> This requires adding some front-end filtering and RF
relays in PA, LNA or wherever you like.
> (I would have prefer to get rid of all diode switching
in RX RF path but have no idea of RF relays small enough to
fit into K144XV box).
> I have tested this setup in September during IARU R1
VHF championship and compared to July's event it looked like
day and night.
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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