QSP?

[Albers]

I'm wondering whether some experienced net ops could chime in with suggestions for getting more QSP going on the weekly Elecraft CW Net?

I don't really know what the right protocol is, but I still have a happy glow thinking about the one time I actually QSP'd for a station that NCS couldn't hear. (can't recall whether it was Kevin or Tom acting as NCS at that moment). It was a thrill to be able to relay the check-in, with my little KX-1 signal!

Anyway, on last night's 40m net (was busy with family at 20m net time) I could barely hear Kevin but there were a couple of stations that were very loud to me, and I suspect might have been able to hear me. I tried sending "pse QSP" once or twice (is that the right way to ask for help??) but didn't want to do that too much for fear of stepping on someone.

I wonder, would it work for NCS to ask "any QSP?" or some such, just before "last call?"

Now that I've said 130% of what I know, maybe someone who really knows how to get QSPs going could chime in??

73
Ray K2HYD
KX-1 #608
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[Tom Hammond-2]

Hi ray:

K2HYD wrote:

I'm wondering whether some experienced net ops could chime in with
suggestions for getting more QSP going on the weekly Elecraft CW Net?

I don't really know what the right protocol is, but I still have a
happy glow thinking about the one time I actually QSP'd for a station
that NCS couldn't hear. (can't recall whether it was Kevin or Tom
acting as NCS at that moment). It was a thrill to be able to relay
the check-in, with my little KX-1 signal!

Anyway, on last night's 40m net (was busy with family at 20m net
time) I could barely hear Kevin but there were a couple of stations
that were very loud to me, and I suspect might have been able to hear
me. I tried sending "pse QSP" once or twice (is that the right way to
ask for help??) but didn't want to do that too much for fear of
stepping on someone.

I wonder, would it work for NCS to ask "any QSP?" or some such, just
before "last call?"

Now that I've said 130% of what I know, maybe someone who really
knows how to get QSPs going could chime in??

I agree that it would be a GREAT thing for others to assist
unacknowledged stations to get checked into the ECN when NCS has not
acknowledged them after several unsuccessful attempts on their part to QNI.

I think that part of the problem is that many (if not most) stations
who do QNI the net probably check out within minutes of being checked
in... as a result, they've no longer present and in a position to
assist other stations who might not be acknowledged by the current NCS.

Many(!) times, when I'm calling ECN in an attempt to help Kevin find
stations who can't hear him or who he hasn't been able to ferret out
of the noise, I hear very weak signals which i think are attempting
to QNI, but which I just cannot pull out of the noise. I'll often ask
for 'relays', but seldom get a response. Again, I suspect that this
may be due to many of the previously checked-in stations having
already closed their stations for the evening.

What I'd like to see is for ALL stations to at least stay on
frequency for 5-10 minutes (if possible) following their being
acknowledged. Then, if they hear another stations, after several
unacknowledged attempts to QNI, AND the NCS not getting any new
check-ins, then it would be GREAT to have further check-ins relayed to the NCS.

The problem is having relaying stations become too anxious to help...
sometimes, I'll hear a number of stations trying to QNI... I (and
Kevin) try to pick them off one at a time, until I hear no further
callers. Then I'll make a couple more calls which, if they go
unanswered, will cue me in to turn the beam to another direction, to
make a few more calls. relays of missed stations would best be made
when the NCS is in that position of getting no further responses to
his calls... so he's not having to pick through a current batch of
calling stations to stations in order to her the relaying station.

Additionally, I know I've experienced a number of instances where I
KNOW there's been a station trying to QNI, but he gives up before I
can get to him to acknowledge him.  Frustration is a problem... if we
call several times and don't get acknowledged, after 4-5 attempts, we
assume that the NCS can't hear us, and we decide to QRT for another
beer.. or whatever... muttering to ourselves that the NCS needs a new
set of ears... This COULD be the case... but it could also be the
case that all the NCS has to do is to turn his antenna!!! And
sometimes either a relay (QSP) or just being patient enough to allow
the NCS to get TO you (either by weeding out the pile of callers OR
by turning his antenna will also solve the problem.

But, in the final analysis... if you hear someone who has repeatedly
called to check in and is not being acknowledged by the NCS (who is
not in the process of picking up potentially stronger stations), then
PLEASE take the time to relay the calling station to the NCS... even
if you don't have the entire call, get the NCS's attention and at
least tell him you hear someone (which you COULD copy if the NCS
would only shut up long enough).  We'll certainly do our best to pull
in all callers.

73, and thanks.

Tom   N0SS

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[k6dgw]

Albers wrote:
> I'm wondering whether some experienced net ops could chime in with
> suggestions for getting more QSP going on the weekly Elecraft CW Net?
>
I was unable to get into the 20m net yesterday, couldn't hear Kevin at
all, and most everyone was weak.  I second your request.

> Anyway, on last night's 40m net (was busy with family at 20m net
> time) I could barely hear Kevin but there were a couple of stations
> that were very loud to me, and I suspect might have been able to hear
> me. I tried sending "pse QSP" once or twice (is that the right way to
> ask for help??) but didn't want to do that too much for fear of
> stepping on someone.

Commercial practice would have been something like:

KMJB KMJB KMJB DE KULI KULI KULI INT QSP KOK K

probably on 500 Kc.  KULI asks KMJB [who he apparently hears well
enough] if he will relay free of charge to coastal station KOK.  The
prosign INT [di di dah dit dah] was an interrogatory meaning what
follows is a question.  INT disappeared somewhere along the line,
replaced by "?" at the end, although we still heard INT when I worked at
KOK as a HS senior.  Ships then had 4-letter calls, coastal stations had
3, and the CG stations' 3-letter calls all started with "N".

>
> I wonder, would it work for NCS to ask "any QSP?" or some such, just
> before "last call?"

When Tom can make the net, it works very well.  When Kevin turns it to
him, he usually calls by direction since he is using a beam.  Of course,
Tom can't always make it so having a couple of alternates on-deck would
help.

Before closing the net, both Kevin and the relay[s] could send something
like "ECN DE KD5ONS QSP?" as a signal for anyone who has heard someone
trying to QNI to jump in.  One way to reply might be "ECN DE <urcall>
QNI <hiscall> [<hiscall2> etc] K"  Kevin might reply "<urcall> QSP K"
and you would then call the guy[s], get the QNI, and then pass it all to
Kevin.

ECN is a little different than traffic nets.  In classic traffic nets,
each station checks in and lists his traffic, and the NCS begins pairing
them up off frequency with the stations who are going to take it.  In
NTS, a section net NCS parks the station[s] who will QNI to the region
net off frequency and stacks those with traffic out of the section onto
those frequencies.

For ECN, Kevin takes each QNI as a separate short QSO.  After checking
in, some QRT and some stick around.  Those would be the people to QSP.

This will all get better as the sun starts getting more active again,
but right now, it's hard on 20, and noisy on 40.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7
- www.cqp.org
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[Van W1WCG]

Hi Tom,

In these days of poor or selective propagation, running a net, particularly
a wide area net such as ECN, becomes a real challenge as many stations can
not hear many of  the other stations and/or NCS.  The NCS should frequently
ask other geographically dispersed stations to call the net.  Stations
checked in that can hear NCS well (and presumably be heard by NCS) should be
quick to use a letter break (just send last letter of call) to let NCS know
that the breaking station has info and/or additional check-in information.
The more applicable net Q-signal for this is QNB, relay between stations; as
opposed to QSP, which refers to traffic.  With a little practice this
procedure can be quick and very  helpful to NCS in managing the net.
Another useful net Q-signal is QNJ, can you copy xxx? Stations checking into
a net normally should expect to stay until the NCS releases them, unless the
net policy dictates otherwise. The NCS should keep a station in the net only
for as long as needed, and release that station as soon as all business for
that station has been accomplished.

All in all, Tom, I think Kevin, you, and the stations that often chip in and
help, do a great job in running ECN and trying to capture all the people
that show up.  Perhaps all that is needed is a reiteration here from time to
time as to how the net is expected to work and how stations checking in can
facilitate and aid in picking up as many potential checkins as possible.

Van, W1WCG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Hammond" <[hidden email]>
To: "Albers" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 11:38 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] QSP? relaying ECN check-ins.

> Hi ray:
>
> K2HYD wrote:
>
> I'm wondering whether some experienced net ops could chime in with
> suggestions for getting more QSP going on the weekly Elecraft CW Net?
>
> I don't really know what the right protocol is, but I still have a happy
> glow thinking about the one time I actually QSP'd for a station that NCS
> couldn't hear. (can't recall whether it was Kevin or Tom acting as NCS at
> that moment). It was a thrill to be able to relay the check-in, with my
> little KX-1 signal!
>
> Anyway, on last night's 40m net (was busy with family at 20m net time) I
> could barely hear Kevin but there were a couple of stations that were very
> loud to me, and I suspect might have been able to hear me. I tried sending
> "pse QSP" once or twice (is that the right way to ask for help??) but
> didn't want to do that too much for fear of stepping on someone.
>
> I wonder, would it work for NCS to ask "any QSP?" or some such, just
> before "last call?"
>
> Now that I've said 130% of what I know, maybe someone who really knows how
> to get QSPs going could chime in??
>
> I agree that it would be a GREAT thing for others to assist unacknowledged
> stations to get checked into the ECN when NCS has not acknowledged them
> after several unsuccessful attempts on their part to QNI.
>
> I think that part of the problem is that many (if not most) stations who
> do QNI the net probably check out within minutes of being checked in... as
> a result, they've no longer present and in a position to assist other
> stations who might not be acknowledged by the current NCS.
>
> Many(!) times, when I'm calling ECN in an attempt to help Kevin find
> stations who can't hear him or who he hasn't been able to ferret out of
> the noise, I hear very weak signals which i think are attempting to QNI,
> but which I just cannot pull out of the noise. I'll often ask for
> 'relays', but seldom get a response. Again, I suspect that this may be due
> to many of the previously checked-in stations having already closed their
> stations for the evening.
>
> What I'd like to see is for ALL stations to at least stay on frequency for
> 5-10 minutes (if possible) following their being acknowledged. Then, if
> they hear another stations, after several unacknowledged attempts to QNI,
> AND the NCS not getting any new check-ins, then it would be GREAT to have
> further check-ins relayed to the NCS.
>
> The problem is having relaying stations become too anxious to help...
> sometimes, I'll hear a number of stations trying to QNI... I (and Kevin)
> try to pick them off one at a time, until I hear no further callers. Then
> I'll make a couple more calls which, if they go unanswered, will cue me in
> to turn the beam to another direction, to make a few more calls. relays of
> missed stations would best be made when the NCS is in that position of
> getting no further responses to his calls... so he's not having to pick
> through a current batch of calling stations to stations in order to her
> the relaying station.
>
> Additionally, I know I've experienced a number of instances where I KNOW
> there's been a station trying to QNI, but he gives up before I can get to
> him to acknowledge him.  Frustration is a problem... if we call several
> times and don't get acknowledged, after 4-5 attempts, we assume that the
> NCS can't hear us, and we decide to QRT for another beer.. or whatever...
> muttering to ourselves that the NCS needs a new set of ears... This COULD
> be the case... but it could also be the case that all the NCS has to do is
> to turn his antenna!!! And sometimes either a relay (QSP) or just being
> patient enough to allow the NCS to get TO you (either by weeding out the
> pile of callers OR by turning his antenna will also solve the problem.
>
> But, in the final analysis... if you hear someone who has repeatedly
> called to check in and is not being acknowledged by the NCS (who is not in
> the process of picking up potentially stronger stations), then PLEASE take
> the time to relay the calling station to the NCS... even if you don't have
> the entire call, get the NCS's attention and at least tell him you hear
> someone (which you COULD copy if the NCS would only shut up long enough).
> We'll certainly do our best to pull in all callers.
>
> 73, and thanks.
>
> Tom   N0SS
>
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[KENT TRIMBLE]

N0SS, being an old and consummate National Traffic System man (as well
as my cross-town good friend), will, I trust, smile kindly on my
contribution to this discussion.

This may be a perfect opportunity to educate and train a whole new
generation of CW operators in long-established, tried-and-tested, ARRL
NTS procedures.  Just because the exchange of formal message traffic is
not the purpose of the ECN, does not mean the net itself cannot be
conducted accordingly.  Likewise, the repetitive use of a few select
Q-signals by the NCS will not only equip new operators with useful CW
skills, but also help resolve the relay issues under discussion.

I expect the K3 to bring a lot of new hams to HF CW over the next
several years, which may also bring them to the ECN.

I would suggest you begin emphasizing that the ECN is a "directed" net
(QND), which you may believe it already to be, but actually isn't (which
is why you are experiencing trouble in identifying QNIs).  Stations
wishing to check into a truly "directed net" transmit nothing until
instructed to do so in some specific fashion by the NCS.  Such as . . .

The check-in instructions might be geographical :

CQ ECN de N0SS QNA ("answer in prearranged order") FIRST CALL AREA STNS
ONLY PSE QNI K
CQ ECN de N0SS QNA SECOND CALL AREA STNS ONLY PSE QNI K
etc., etc.,  through all the call areas.  This permits pointing the bean
in one direction at a time without having to continually swing it
through the compass rose.

Another method (unique to ECN) might be  . . .

CQ ECN de N0SS QNA KX1 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
CQ ECN de N0SS QNA K1 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
CQ ECN de N0SS QNA K2 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
CQ ECN de N0SS QNA K3 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K

Many nets have done this for years, it's nothing new, but it IS
effective, and solves two of your problems: (1) reducing (if not
eliminating) QRM from stations all over the country trying to QNI at the
same time; and (2) forcing significant numbers of stations to "stick
around" until their call area is up to bat, thus providing relay
stations if such are needed.  But again, it is in an orderly fashion,
not the chaos it is now.  Two SSB nets I occasionally frequent (Collins
Collectors Association net and the Interstate Single Sideband Net) have
done the geographical thing for decades.  The NTS system routinely asks
for QNI on a QNA (prearranged order) from those stations serving as
liaisons to higher level nets.  And to make it fair, each week you
alternate the order, so the zero-call area stations aren't waiting until
the end all the time.  Likewise, you alternate the rig-order assuming
your "prearranged order" goes by model.

A companion advantage is the opportunity for CW copy practice for
newcomers.  The longer they wait their turn, the more CW they will be
copying, the more Q-signals they will be exposed to, and the less
intimidated they will be when it comes their turn to hit the key.

Finally, it has always been my personal belief that one of the
obligations of the net control station is to be HEARD.  This means
transmitting with more than 100 watts off a dipole at thirty feet.  It
means an amplifier, especially during sunspot minima.  It also means a
decent antenna.  Good NCS operators without amplifier capabilities  
should not be excluded, but they should be encouraged to save their
pennies for one.  They should also be selected on the basis of
consistently good strength signals and good operating skills.

All of this, of course, is my opinion only, but stems from five decades
of CW traffic work and serving as Net Manager of two ARRL section nets
over the years.

73,

Kent  K9ZTV





Tom Hammond wrote:

> Hi ray:
>
> K2HYD wrote:
>
> I'm wondering whether some experienced net ops could chime in with
> suggestions for getting more QSP going on the weekly Elecraft CW Net?
>
> I don't really know what the right protocol is, but I still have a
> happy glow thinking about the one time I actually QSP'd for a station
> that NCS couldn't hear. (can't recall whether it was Kevin or Tom
> acting as NCS at that moment). It was a thrill to be able to relay the
> check-in, with my little KX-1 signal!
>
> Anyway, on last night's 40m net (was busy with family at 20m net time)
> I could barely hear Kevin but there were a couple of stations that
> were very loud to me, and I suspect might have been able to hear me. I
> tried sending "pse QSP" once or twice (is that the right way to ask
> for help??) but didn't want to do that too much for fear of stepping
> on someone.
>
> I wonder, would it work for NCS to ask "any QSP?" or some such, just
> before "last call?"
>
> Now that I've said 130% of what I know, maybe someone who really knows
> how to get QSPs going could chime in??
>
> I agree that it would be a GREAT thing for others to assist
> unacknowledged stations to get checked into the ECN when NCS has not
> acknowledged them after several unsuccessful attempts on their part to
> QNI.
>
> I think that part of the problem is that many (if not most) stations
> who do QNI the net probably check out within minutes of being checked
> in... as a result, they've no longer present and in a position to
> assist other stations who might not be acknowledged by the current NCS.
>
> Many(!) times, when I'm calling ECN in an attempt to help Kevin find
> stations who can't hear him or who he hasn't been able to ferret out
> of the noise, I hear very weak signals which i think are attempting to
> QNI, but which I just cannot pull out of the noise. I'll often ask for
> 'relays', but seldom get a response. Again, I suspect that this may be
> due to many of the previously checked-in stations having already
> closed their stations for the evening.
>
> What I'd like to see is for ALL stations to at least stay on frequency
> for 5-10 minutes (if possible) following their being acknowledged.
> Then, if they hear another stations, after several unacknowledged
> attempts to QNI, AND the NCS not getting any new check-ins, then it
> would be GREAT to have further check-ins relayed to the NCS.
>
> The problem is having relaying stations become too anxious to help...
> sometimes, I'll hear a number of stations trying to QNI... I (and
> Kevin) try to pick them off one at a time, until I hear no further
> callers. Then I'll make a couple more calls which, if they go
> unanswered, will cue me in to turn the beam to another direction, to
> make a few more calls. relays of missed stations would best be made
> when the NCS is in that position of getting no further responses to
> his calls... so he's not having to pick through a current batch of
> calling stations to stations in order to her the relaying station.
>
> Additionally, I know I've experienced a number of instances where I
> KNOW there's been a station trying to QNI, but he gives up before I
> can get to him to acknowledge him.  Frustration is a problem... if we
> call several times and don't get acknowledged, after 4-5 attempts, we
> assume that the NCS can't hear us, and we decide to QRT for another
> beer.. or whatever... muttering to ourselves that the NCS needs a new
> set of ears... This COULD be the case... but it could also be the case
> that all the NCS has to do is to turn his antenna!!! And sometimes
> either a relay (QSP) or just being patient enough to allow the NCS to
> get TO you (either by weeding out the pile of callers OR by turning
> his antenna will also solve the problem.
>
> But, in the final analysis... if you hear someone who has repeatedly
> called to check in and is not being acknowledged by the NCS (who is
> not in the process of picking up potentially stronger stations), then
> PLEASE take the time to relay the calling station to the NCS... even
> if you don't have the entire call, get the NCS's attention and at
> least tell him you hear someone (which you COULD copy if the NCS would
> only shut up long enough).  We'll certainly do our best to pull in all
> callers.
>
> 73, and thanks.
>
> Tom   N0SS

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[daleputnam]

A fine balance between knowing the props, and accepting checkins, asking QSP? would be the achievable. Each ncs has their own style, yet each can strive to achieve more effective checkins by using additional and maybe reliable, known, and able stations for relay would work.
  NTS is a fine example of how to, MARS handled huge loads of traffic and there are still ops that were trained around. Some of us could help too.--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
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[dave.wilburn]

I have been working at improving my CW skills for what seems a very long
time.  I have not checked into a CW net, and I would like to check into
ECN, but it is admittedly difficult here from the right coast.  I have
listened one time and was a bit overwhelmed with trying to copy,
understand, and figure out what I needed to do.

I have looked at traffic net protocols, and I understand that practice
will improve understanding.  Is it possible to have a script somewhere
of what will happen, so us newbies / slowpokes can follow along, and try
to figure out when to send out our call?

My plan would be to listen to the 20m net, and then try to stay awake
and attempt to check in on the 40m net.  Rig is K2/100 w/80m loop.  So
main handicap is the operator.

David Wilburn
[hidden email]
K4DGW
K2 #5982


K9ZTV wrote:

> N0SS, being an old and consummate National Traffic System man (as well
> as my cross-town good friend), will, I trust, smile kindly on my
> contribution to this discussion.
>
> This may be a perfect opportunity to educate and train a whole new
> generation of CW operators in long-established, tried-and-tested, ARRL
> NTS procedures.  Just because the exchange of formal message traffic is
> not the purpose of the ECN, does not mean the net itself cannot be
> conducted accordingly.  Likewise, the repetitive use of a few select
> Q-signals by the NCS will not only equip new operators with useful CW
> skills, but also help resolve the relay issues under discussion.
> I expect the K3 to bring a lot of new hams to HF CW over the next
> several years, which may also bring them to the ECN.
>
> I would suggest you begin emphasizing that the ECN is a "directed" net
> (QND), which you may believe it already to be, but actually isn't (which
> is why you are experiencing trouble in identifying QNIs).  Stations
> wishing to check into a truly "directed net" transmit nothing until
> instructed to do so in some specific fashion by the NCS.  Such as . . .
>
> The check-in instructions might be geographical :
>
> CQ ECN de N0SS QNA ("answer in prearranged order") FIRST CALL AREA STNS
> ONLY PSE QNI K
> CQ ECN de N0SS QNA SECOND CALL AREA STNS ONLY PSE QNI K
> etc., etc.,  through all the call areas.  This permits pointing the bean
> in one direction at a time without having to continually swing it
> through the compass rose.
>
> Another method (unique to ECN) might be  . . .
>
> CQ ECN de N0SS QNA KX1 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
> CQ ECN de N0SS QNA K1 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
> CQ ECN de N0SS QNA K2 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
> CQ ECN de N0SS QNA K3 RIGS ONLY PSE QNI K
>
> Many nets have done this for years, it's nothing new, but it IS
> effective, and solves two of your problems: (1) reducing (if not
> eliminating) QRM from stations all over the country trying to QNI at the
> same time; and (2) forcing significant numbers of stations to "stick
> around" until their call area is up to bat, thus providing relay
> stations if such are needed.  But again, it is in an orderly fashion,
> not the chaos it is now.  Two SSB nets I occasionally frequent (Collins
> Collectors Association net and the Interstate Single Sideband Net) have
> done the geographical thing for decades.  The NTS system routinely asks
> for QNI on a QNA (prearranged order) from those stations serving as
> liaisons to higher level nets.  And to make it fair, each week you
> alternate the order, so the zero-call area stations aren't waiting until
> the end all the time.  Likewise, you alternate the rig-order assuming
> your "prearranged order" goes by model.
>
> A companion advantage is the opportunity for CW copy practice for
> newcomers.  The longer they wait their turn, the more CW they will be
> copying, the more Q-signals they will be exposed to, and the less
> intimidated they will be when it comes their turn to hit the key.
>
> Finally, it has always been my personal belief that one of the
> obligations of the net control station is to be HEARD.  This means
> transmitting with more than 100 watts off a dipole at thirty feet.  It
> means an amplifier, especially during sunspot minima.  It also means a
> decent antenna.  Good NCS operators without amplifier capabilities  
> should not be excluded, but they should be encouraged to save their
> pennies for one.  They should also be selected on the basis of
> consistently good strength signals and good operating skills.
>
> All of this, of course, is my opinion only, but stems from five decades
> of CW traffic work and serving as Net Manager of two ARRL section nets
> over the years.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent  K9ZTV
>
>
>
>
>
> Tom Hammond wrote:
>
>> Hi ray:
>>
>> K2HYD wrote:
>>
>> I'm wondering whether some experienced net ops could chime in with
>> suggestions for getting more QSP going on the weekly Elecraft CW Net?
>>
>> I don't really know what the right protocol is, but I still have a
>> happy glow thinking about the one time I actually QSP'd for a station
>> that NCS couldn't hear. (can't recall whether it was Kevin or Tom
>> acting as NCS at that moment). It was a thrill to be able to relay the
>> check-in, with my little KX-1 signal!
>>
>> Anyway, on last night's 40m net (was busy with family at 20m net time)
>> I could barely hear Kevin but there were a couple of stations that
>> were very loud to me, and I suspect might have been able to hear me. I
>> tried sending "pse QSP" once or twice (is that the right way to ask
>> for help??) but didn't want to do that too much for fear of stepping
>> on someone.
>>
>> I wonder, would it work for NCS to ask "any QSP?" or some such, just
>> before "last call?"
>>
>> Now that I've said 130% of what I know, maybe someone who really knows
>> how to get QSPs going could chime in??
>>
>> I agree that it would be a GREAT thing for others to assist
>> unacknowledged stations to get checked into the ECN when NCS has not
>> acknowledged them after several unsuccessful attempts on their part to
>> QNI.
>>
>> I think that part of the problem is that many (if not most) stations
>> who do QNI the net probably check out within minutes of being checked
>> in... as a result, they've no longer present and in a position to
>> assist other stations who might not be acknowledged by the current NCS.
>>
>> Many(!) times, when I'm calling ECN in an attempt to help Kevin find
>> stations who can't hear him or who he hasn't been able to ferret out
>> of the noise, I hear very weak signals which i think are attempting to
>> QNI, but which I just cannot pull out of the noise. I'll often ask for
>> 'relays', but seldom get a response. Again, I suspect that this may be
>> due to many of the previously checked-in stations having already
>> closed their stations for the evening.
>>
>> What I'd like to see is for ALL stations to at least stay on frequency
>> for 5-10 minutes (if possible) following their being acknowledged.
>> Then, if they hear another stations, after several unacknowledged
>> attempts to QNI, AND the NCS not getting any new check-ins, then it
>> would be GREAT to have further check-ins relayed to the NCS.
>>
>> The problem is having relaying stations become too anxious to help...
>> sometimes, I'll hear a number of stations trying to QNI... I (and
>> Kevin) try to pick them off one at a time, until I hear no further
>> callers. Then I'll make a couple more calls which, if they go
>> unanswered, will cue me in to turn the beam to another direction, to
>> make a few more calls. relays of missed stations would best be made
>> when the NCS is in that position of getting no further responses to
>> his calls... so he's not having to pick through a current batch of
>> calling stations to stations in order to her the relaying station.
>>
>> Additionally, I know I've experienced a number of instances where I
>> KNOW there's been a station trying to QNI, but he gives up before I
>> can get to him to acknowledge him.  Frustration is a problem... if we
>> call several times and don't get acknowledged, after 4-5 attempts, we
>> assume that the NCS can't hear us, and we decide to QRT for another
>> beer.. or whatever... muttering to ourselves that the NCS needs a new
>> set of ears... This COULD be the case... but it could also be the case
>> that all the NCS has to do is to turn his antenna!!! And sometimes
>> either a relay (QSP) or just being patient enough to allow the NCS to
>> get TO you (either by weeding out the pile of callers OR by turning
>> his antenna will also solve the problem.
>>
>> But, in the final analysis... if you hear someone who has repeatedly
>> called to check in and is not being acknowledged by the NCS (who is
>> not in the process of picking up potentially stronger stations), then
>> PLEASE take the time to relay the calling station to the NCS... even
>> if you don't have the entire call, get the NCS's attention and at
>> least tell him you hear someone (which you COULD copy if the NCS would
>> only shut up long enough).  We'll certainly do our best to pull in all
>> callers.
>>
>> 73, and thanks.
>>
>> Tom   N0SS
>
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[Tom Hammond-2]

Hi David:

>I have been working at improving my CW skills for what seems a very
>long time.  I have not checked into a CW net, and I would like to
>check into ECN, but it is admittedly difficult here from the right
>coast.  I have listened one time and was a bit overwhelmed with
>trying to copy, understand, and figure out what I needed to do.
>
>I have looked at traffic net protocols, and I understand that
>practice will improve understanding.  Is it possible to have a
>script somewhere of what will happen, so us newbies / slowpokes can
>follow along, and try to figure out when to send out our call?

I thought Kevin offered something along this line on the web site he
references at the end of each weekly ECN announcement...

Shoot...!  Thought I had a copy of his last announcement, but must
have dumped it.

>My plan would be to listen to the 20m net, and then try to stay
>awake and attempt to check in on the 40m net.  Rig is K2/100 w/80m
>loop.  So main handicap is the operator.

In general, we have a main NCS (Net Control Station), who is Kevin
KD5ONS. After he picks up as many stations as he can easily find,
he'll usually try to turn things over to me (N0SS, in the midwest)
for a second shot.

The general call is "CQ ECN DE {call} QNI? K", "CQ ECN EAST DE {call}
QNI? K" or something very similar to that.

As soon as the "K" is sent, we are listening for stations wishing to
QNI (check in) to send a 'hail sign', usually one or two characters
from their callsign (such as "DG", if you were attempting to QNI).

When the NCS hears the hail from another station he will respond to
that station by sending back the hail which he heard (or which he
THINKS he heard). That's all... usually no other response from NCS.

If you hear the NCS respond with your hail, that's your cue to send
"DE K4DGW David in FL Kx (fill in the Elecraft model #) NR (fill in
your serial #) K".

Assuming NCS gets all of your info, he will acknowledge you and
welcome you to the net, possibly asking for more comments or info.
Otherwise, you will often be asked to stand by with the "AS" prosign,
or you may be allowed to check out as well.

If the NCS does NOT copy your info, he may ask YOU for a repeat, or
may ask someone else to relay (QSP or QNB) is possible.

If you are trying to QNI at the first of the net, when there may be
many other stations trying to QNI as well, you may be well down in
the 'pile' of callers, so it may take a while for the NCS to dig down
to you.  BE PATIENT, and PERSISTENT!  Wait for the next call for
check-ins and try again!  Repeat as required unless it's obvious that
the NCS is not hearing you. We TRY to pick up all callers, but
sometimes we just cannot pull everyone out of the noise (summertime
QRN out here in the midwest often runs S7-S9, even on a 'quiet'
night. If I don't get any responses to calls for QNI, I will usually
ask for any relays of stations I can't hear.

When I am NCSing, I try to set my character speed at 20 WPM with
added spacing between characters, for an equivalent speed of about
15-16 WPM. If that speed is too fast for you, feel free to send at
whatever speed is comfy for you and we will try to match YOUR sending
speed. If we don't BE SURE to ask for a QRS... no dishonor in asking that!!!

Hope this helps a bit.

73,

Tom Hammond   N0SS

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[dave.wilburn]

Sounds good Tom, thank, and thanks to others who have replied with ideas
off-line.  I remember seeing something about the net, so that is
probably the link you are talking about.  I will catch his next
announcement.  I try to catch the early net, but get busy, and then too
late for the later one.  Getting tired and head isn't on straight.

David Wilburn
[hidden email]
K4DGW
K2 #5982


Tom Hammond wrote:

> Hi David:
>
>> I have been working at improving my CW skills for what seems a very
>> long time.  I have not checked into a CW net, and I would like to
>> check into ECN, but it is admittedly difficult here from the right
>> coast.  I have listened one time and was a bit overwhelmed with trying
>> to copy, understand, and figure out what I needed to do.
>>
>> I have looked at traffic net protocols, and I understand that practice
>> will improve understanding.  Is it possible to have a script somewhere
>> of what will happen, so us newbies / slowpokes can follow along, and
>> try to figure out when to send out our call?
>
> I thought Kevin offered something along this line on the web site he
> references at the end of each weekly ECN announcement...
>
> Shoot...!  Thought I had a copy of his last announcement, but must have
> dumped it.
>
>> My plan would be to listen to the 20m net, and then try to stay awake
>> and attempt to check in on the 40m net.  Rig is K2/100 w/80m loop.  So
>> main handicap is the operator.
>
> In general, we have a main NCS (Net Control Station), who is Kevin
> KD5ONS. After he picks up as many stations as he can easily find, he'll
> usually try to turn things over to me (N0SS, in the midwest) for a
> second shot.
>
> The general call is "CQ ECN DE {call} QNI? K", "CQ ECN EAST DE {call}
> QNI? K" or something very similar to that.
>
> As soon as the "K" is sent, we are listening for stations wishing to QNI
> (check in) to send a 'hail sign', usually one or two characters from
> their callsign (such as "DG", if you were attempting to QNI).
>
> When the NCS hears the hail from another station he will respond to that
> station by sending back the hail which he heard (or which he THINKS he
> heard). That's all... usually no other response from NCS.
>
> If you hear the NCS respond with your hail, that's your cue to send "DE
> K4DGW David in FL Kx (fill in the Elecraft model #) NR (fill in your
> serial #) K".
>
> Assuming NCS gets all of your info, he will acknowledge you and welcome
> you to the net, possibly asking for more comments or info. Otherwise,
> you will often be asked to stand by with the "AS" prosign, or you may be
> allowed to check out as well.
>
> If the NCS does NOT copy your info, he may ask YOU for a repeat, or may
> ask someone else to relay (QSP or QNB) is possible.
>
> If you are trying to QNI at the first of the net, when there may be many
> other stations trying to QNI as well, you may be well down in the 'pile'
> of callers, so it may take a while for the NCS to dig down to you.  BE
> PATIENT, and PERSISTENT!  Wait for the next call for check-ins and try
> again!  Repeat as required unless it's obvious that the NCS is not
> hearing you. We TRY to pick up all callers, but sometimes we just cannot
> pull everyone out of the noise (summertime QRN out here in the midwest
> often runs S7-S9, even on a 'quiet' night. If I don't get any responses
> to calls for QNI, I will usually ask for any relays of stations I can't
> hear.
>
> When I am NCSing, I try to set my character speed at 20 WPM with added
> spacing between characters, for an equivalent speed of about 15-16 WPM.
> If that speed is too fast for you, feel free to send at whatever speed
> is comfy for you and we will try to match YOUR sending speed. If we
> don't BE SURE to ask for a QRS... no dishonor in asking that!!!
>
> Hope this helps a bit.
>
> 73,
>
> Tom Hammond   N0SS
>
>

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[Stephen W. Kercel]

David:

If you're interested in improving your CW network skills, your best
bet would be to participate in an NTS slow net. Although the ECN is
fairly easy to hit from the east coast on 20 M, until you get your CW
speed up, you may find it a bit overwhelming.

Your QRZ.com listing says that you are in southern Virginia. I looked
on the Virginia ARRL Section Web site, and unfortunately Virginia
only has a fast CW NTS net.

However, the Virginia site does include a link,
http://home.carolina.rr.com/w4eat/csn.html to the Carolinas Slow Net.
Since it is listed on the Virginia site, I expect that they welcome
Virginia checkins. The net runs on 80 M at 8-10 wpm, and is
specifically geared to educate beginners on CW net operating procedures.

I used to operate from Chester Virginia, and I can tell you that the
Carolina nets are easy to hit on 80 m from southern Virginia, and the
Carolina operators are very friendly.

You might want to give that a go. If you do not feel quite ready, you
might want to e-mail w4eat and seek his advice on participating.

73,

Steve Kercel
AA4AK




At 12:02 PM 8/15/2007, David Wilburn wrote:

>I have been working at improving my CW skills for what seems a very
>long time.  I have not checked into a CW net, and I would like to
>check into ECN, but it is admittedly difficult here from the right
>coast.  I have listened one time and was a bit overwhelmed with
>trying to copy, understand, and figure out what I needed to do.
>
>I have looked at traffic net protocols, and I understand that
>practice will improve understanding.  Is it possible to have a
>script somewhere of what will happen, so us newbies / slowpokes can
>follow along, and try to figure out when to send out our call?
>
>My plan would be to listen to the 20m net, and then try to stay
>awake and attempt to check in on the 40m net.  Rig is K2/100 w/80m
>loop.  So main handicap is the operator.
>
>David Wilburn
>[hidden email]
>K4DGW
>K2 #5982

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[Kevin Rock]

Good Evening,
   I found working with a slow speed NTS net very helpful while I was improving my CW copy.  After about a year with WCN I moved on to our regular NTS net.  I worked with them passing traffic for a few years until my work schedule precluded my activity.  ECN runs as a directed net and while acting as NCS I have accepted traffic.  Later, either after or between the nets, I passed it on.  
   Earlier today Tom gave a good summary of how he and I run the nets.  After you send your 'hail' sign, and we echo it, all you need to do is send the information he listed at YOUR comfortable copying speed.  He and I will slow down to your rate to acknowledge your information and welcome you.  I have been told there are many folks listening while ECN is running.  Some try to be heard and are not acknowledged while others simply listen along for practice.  I don't mind folks listening but I would like to meet them if at all possible.  I would also like to encourage folks to relay stations or to run the net for a while.  It is not difficult and is good practice.  
   ECN is not a traffic net, per se, but will handle traffic if necessary.  It is meant to be a casual net where folks can meet and listen to others around the continent (or world if propagation improves).  If you send QRS we will slow down; I try to be as polite as my mother taught me.  Being kind and courteous has paid me great dividends over the years.  I'll not stop any time soon!  There is nothing strict about ECN, we try to enjoy ourselves, have fun, and welcome others to the group.  Please feel free to listen or participate; your choice.
   73,
      Kevin.  KD5ONS


-----Original Message-----

>From: "Stephen W. Kercel" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Aug 15, 2007 3:38 PM
>To: David Wilburn <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QSP?  relaying ECN check-ins.
>
>David:
>
>If you're interested in improving your CW network skills, your best
>bet would be to participate in an NTS slow net. Although the ECN is
>fairly easy to hit from the east coast on 20 M, until you get your CW
>speed up, you may find it a bit overwhelming.
>
>Your QRZ.com listing says that you are in southern Virginia. I looked
>on the Virginia ARRL Section Web site, and unfortunately Virginia
>only has a fast CW NTS net.
>
>However, the Virginia site does include a link,
>http://home.carolina.rr.com/w4eat/csn.html to the Carolinas Slow Net.
>Since it is listed on the Virginia site, I expect that they welcome
>Virginia checkins. The net runs on 80 M at 8-10 wpm, and is
>specifically geared to educate beginners on CW net operating procedures.
>
>I used to operate from Chester Virginia, and I can tell you that the
>Carolina nets are easy to hit on 80 m from southern Virginia, and the
>Carolina operators are very friendly.
>
>You might want to give that a go. If you do not feel quite ready, you
>might want to e-mail w4eat and seek his advice on participating.
>
>73,
>
>Steve Kercel
>AA4AK
>
>
>At 12:02 PM 8/15/2007, David Wilburn wrote:
>>I have been working at improving my CW skills for what seems a very
>>long time.  I have not checked into a CW net, and I would like to
>>check into ECN, but it is admittedly difficult here from the right
>>coast.  I have listened one time and was a bit overwhelmed with
>>trying to copy, understand, and figure out what I needed to do.
>>
>>I have looked at traffic net protocols, and I understand that
>>practice will improve understanding.  Is it possible to have a
>>script somewhere of what will happen, so us newbies / slowpokes can
>>follow along, and try to figure out when to send out our call?
>>
>>My plan would be to listen to the 20m net, and then try to stay
>>awake and attempt to check in on the 40m net.  Rig is K2/100 w/80m
>>loop.  So main handicap is the operator.
>>
>>David Wilburn
>>[hidden email]
>>K4DGW
>>K2 #5982

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