Questions and K3 options? Please!

[BillC-2]

Long story short: I was licensed in '87 at 14, I operated day and night CW on an IC-761 for about 3 years got burned out and then joined the service, got married had kids and now 18 years later about to order a new HF and throw up an antenna. Well, alot has changed in the past 20 years, we now have internet and the majority of the new radios seem to be menu driven rigs with dsp. Now after sifting through just about everything I could find on newer radios I've been looking at the K3 and the Icom-756ProIII. They both seem to be very capable radios according to the reviews I have read, but I think I have narrowed my choice down to a K3. My problem is that Im not sure which filters I should add to my order for a primarily CW use radio. Also how much of this radio is software dependant (assuming alot) and what kind of updates could I expect to be of benefit to the K3? Also someone give me a scenario of where the KR3X would come in use, from what I read it's basically a 2nd receiver? And one more before Im done, Auto tuner 20 years ago didn't seem to work very good on the 761, so I used an MFJ tuner, have the auto's gotten any better? Sorry for some dumb questions but im trying to figure this stuff out! Thanks

[Julian, G4ILO]

BillC wrote

Long story short: I was licensed in '87 at 14, I operated day and night CW on an IC-761 for about 3 years got burned out and then joined the service, got married had kids and now 18 years later about to order a new HF and throw up an antenna. Well, alot has changed in the past 20 years, we now have internet and the majority of the new radios seem to be menu driven rigs with dsp. Now after sifting through just about everything I could find on newer radios I've been looking at the K3 and the Icom-756ProIII. They both seem to be very capable radios according to the reviews I have read, but I think I have narrowed my choice down to a K3. My problem is that Im not sure which filters I should add to my order for a primarily CW use radio. Also how much of this radio is software dependant (assuming alot) and what kind of updates could I expect to be of benefit to the K3? Also someone give me a scenario of where the KR3X would come in use, from what I read it's basically a 2nd receiver? And one more before Im done, Auto tuner 20 years ago didn't seem to work very good on the 761, so I used an MFJ tuner, have the auto's gotten any better? Sorry for some dumb questions but im trying to figure this stuff out! Thanks

Filters. I think you'll get quite a few different opinions on this. Bear in mind the K3 has DSP filtering which is pretty good. A lot will depend on the filter bandwidths you personally like to use. I like to tune around with the bandwidth set to 1KHz. But you don't need brick-wall skirts for such a tuning-around bandwidth, so I think the DSP filtering is fine for that. There is no need for a 1KHz roofing filter. Some may disagree. I think a 500Hz 5-pole (or 400Hz 8-pole if you're willing to spend the extra) is probably all you need at this stage. If you think you need the extra help to winkle out weak ones next to strong signals you can always add a narrower filter later.

Updates. Yes, the K3 is highly software dependent. UPdates provide things like improved NR. Just browse the firmware release notes to find the changes we've had so far.

Second receiver. I haven't gone for that. BUt if you are really into competitive DXing you may find it useful to listen on the DX frequency and the calling frequency at the same time. If you're into contests you may find it useful to be able to monitor two frequencies at once.

ATU. The Elecraft tuners are streets ahead of the tuners that come in the Japanese rigs. By which I mean they can tune over a wider range (typically up to 10:1 compared to up to 3:1.) On the other hand , if you have a 10:1 or greater SWR at the rig then you'll be losing a lot of power in the co-ax unless it is very short. So the wide range is probably more use when using the radio in the field than at the home QTH.

HTH.

[M0XDF]

KRX3 - as Julian says, lets you listen to both the Tx frequency of the  
DX and the pile up of all the people trying to work the DX op, when  
they are working split. That's important, especially these days, since  
most (if not all) Dxperditions work split and since so many people  
call and unless you have a 'big gun' that blasts all the others out of  
the water, you need to be 'canny' - listen to both sides of the QSO  
and figure out where the DX op is moving to and be there before the  
others are.

KAT3 - fantastic - well worth it, even if you only use it portable,  
and my experience shows it tunes a lot wider range that 10:1 - I've  
had it bring 30:1 down to 1.2:1, although probably with a loss of power.

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
Power is no substitute for Skill.

On 2 Jul 2008, at 09:17, G4ILO wrote:

> BillC wrote:
>>
>> Also someone give me a scenario of where the KR3X would come in  
>> use, from
>> what I read it's basically a 2nd receiver? And one more before Im  
>> done,
>> Auto tuner 20 years ago didn't seem to work very good on the 761,  
>> so I
>> used an MFJ tuner, have the auto's gotten any better? Sorry for  
>> some dumb
>> questions:confused: but im trying to figure this stuff out! Thanks  
>> =^D
>>
> Second receiver. I haven't gone for that. BUt if you are really into
> competitive DXing you may find it useful to listen on the DX  
> frequency and
> the calling frequency at the same time. If you're into contests you  
> may find
> it useful to be able to monitor two frequencies at once.
>
> ATU. The Elecraft tuners are streets ahead of the tuners that come  
> in the
> Japanese rigs. By which I mean they can tune over a wider range  
> (typically
> up to 10:1 compared to up to 3:1.) On the other hand , if you have a  
> 10:1 or
> greater SWR at the rig then you'll be losing a lot of power in the  
> co-ax
> unless it is very short. So the wide range is probably more use when  
> using
> the radio in the field than at the home QTH.

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[w7aqk]

Bill and All,

I would primarily just echo Julian's comments.  He did a
pretty good job of answering your query.  A few additional
thoughts though.

First of all, regarding the Pro III.  I really think the K3
is superior, but so many folks out there rave about their
Pro III's that, if you actually tinker with one, you may
fall in love with it.  The bandscope on the Pro III is a
really big feature, and very useful.  It's a very competent
radio, and I think you could get one for a fair amount less
than you would probably spend on a K3.  So, you could get
back into "business" for less money that way, and have a 1st
class rig to boot.  Eventually the benefits of the K3 would
become more obvious, but perhaps not right away to someone
just getting back into the water.  By the way, I just got
notified that my panadaptor kit from Telepost (the LP-PAN)
has shipped.  This will give me a reasonably comparable
accessory to the Pro III's bandscope, but it is outboard,
and does require using a computer.  But don't get me wrong,
the K3 would be my first choice, particularly if you don't
mind spending a few more bucks in the process.  You would
really end up with a radio that far surpasses anything in
the Pro III class, and even those costing much, much more.

Regarding the K3, Julian is dead on about the filters.  You
would probably do fine with the 500 hz one.  I have the 400
hz in mine, and it's 8 pole instead of 5, so sharper skirts,
etc.  And it's only a few more dollars.  The DSP in the K3
is so good, you may not need anything lower than that.  If
you really get into contesting, or digital stuff, the
narrower filters will become more attractive.

The ATU in the K3 is superb, especially for an internal
tuner.  It's range is considerably better than 3:1, and
where you might find that useful is on a band like 40
meters.  Depending on what frequency you cut your antenna
for, wide band excursions on the lower bands can be a
problem.  I usually cut mine for the CW portion, but when I
go to the higher end of the band, some internal tuners tend
to choke trying to match up there.  Not so with the K3.  My
favorite personal experience story with the K3 is that I can
tune my R8 vertical, which supposedly only goes down to 40
meters, on both 80 and 160 meters using the K3's ATU.  Now,
that doesn't mean those antennas perform very well
there--they don't!  But it's not for lack of an acceptable
SWR being presented to the TX.  But on 40 meters for
example, your antenna cut to favor one end of the band or
the other will still perform very nicely at the opposite
end.  The same would probably be true with an 80 meter
antenna.  Above 40 meters, most internal ATU's will do O.K.
And be advised that you really have to be realistic about
doing things like running an R8 on 160 meters.  I can do it,
but I don't--at least not routinely.  I really only get
about 2:1 there, and that tells me "watch out!"  If you
can't get something close to 1:1 using the ATU, you probably
need to be cut the power back a little or a lot, depending
on just what your actual SWR reading is.  But anything under
say, 1.5:1 or so, is probably fairly safe.  Others can tell
you better about this perhaps.  On 80 meters I get 1:1 all
over the band, so I don't worry much about it.  But the
antenna is still pretty inefficient, so folks still don't
hear me very well with it.

You can live without the 2nd RX, and perhaps very nicely.
But as Julian says, if you become a contester or DX chaser,
you would probably really appreciate the benefits a 2nd RX
provides.  The thing about the K3's 2nd RX is that it
actually is pretty inexpensive--under $600.  Consider, on
the other hand, The Icom 7800 vs. the Icom 7700.  The 7700
is pretty close to being a 7800, but with just one RX.  Even
the Icom rep admitted that at Dayton.  But the 7800 is
thousands more than the 7700.  Same thing with a Ten-Tec
Omni VII and a Ten-Ten Orion II.  The cost difference is
less, but still much more than adding a 2nd RX to the K3.
There are other subtle differences between the rigs
mentioned above, but by far the biggest difference is the
2nd RX.  By the way, the Pro III doesn't have a 2nd RX, and
has no provisions for adding one.  So, if you ever felt the
need for that feature, you'd be shopping for a new radio.
At least with the K3 you have the option to expand.  And in
the K3 the 2nd RX is an exact duplicate of the main RX.  In
many rigs having the 2nd RX feature, there is a somewhat
lesser RX in position 2.

Dave W7AQK





----- Original Message -----
From: "G4ILO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions and K3 options? Please!

>
> Filters. I think you'll get quite a few different opinions
> on this. Bear in
> mind the K3 has DSP filtering which is pretty good. A lot
> will depend on the
> filter bandwidths you personally like to use. I like to
> tune around with the
> bandwidth set to 1KHz. But you don't need brick-wall
> skirts for such a
> tuning-around bandwidth, so I think the DSP filtering is
> fine for that.
> There is no need for a 1KHz roofing filter. Some may
> disagree. I think a
> 500Hz 5-pole (or 400Hz 8-pole if you're willing to spend
> the extra) is
> probably all you need at this stage. If you think you need
> the extra help to
> winkle out weak ones next to strong signals you can always
> add a narrower
> filter later.
>
> Updates. Yes, the K3 is highly software dependent. UPdates
> provide things
> like improved NR. Just browse the firmware release notes
> to find the changes
> we've had so far.
>
> Second receiver. I haven't gone for that. BUt if you are
> really into
> competitive DXing you may find it useful to listen on the
> DX frequency and
> the calling frequency at the same time. If you're into
> contests you may find
> it useful to be able to monitor two frequencies at once.
>
> ATU. The Elecraft tuners are streets ahead of the tuners
> that come in the
> Japanese rigs. By which I mean they can tune over a wider
> range (typically
> up to 10:1 compared to up to 3:1.) On the other hand , if
> you have a 10:1 or
> greater SWR at the rig then you'll be losing a lot of
> power in the co-ax
> unless it is very short. So the wide range is probably
> more use when using
> the radio in the field than at the home QTH.
>
> HTH.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO  K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> KComm for K2/K3: www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Questions-and-K3-options--Please%21-tp18230713p18232454.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

David Yarnes wrote:

> but I don't--at least not routinely.  I really only get
> about 2:1 there, and that tells me "watch out!"  If you
> can't get something close to 1:1 using the ATU, you probably
> need to be cut the power back a little or a lot...

I would think the SWR protection circuitry in the K3 would do this for you
automatically. I guess I always assumed that, like virtually every other rig
out there, the K3 has automatic SWR foldback to protect the finals... Am I
wrong about that?

Bill W5VWO

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[Bob Cunnings NW8L]

Yes, SWR foldback was introduced in version 1.87/1.69. The release notes say:

"Power rollback begins at about
2.5:1 at 100 W (and of course much higher SWRs are tolerated at lower
power settings)."

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Bill W5WVO <[hidden email]> wrote:

> David Yarnes wrote:
>
>> but I don't--at least not routinely.  I really only get
>> about 2:1 there, and that tells me "watch out!"  If you
>> can't get something close to 1:1 using the ATU, you probably
>> need to be cut the power back a little or a lot...
>
> I would think the SWR protection circuitry in the K3 would do this for you
> automatically. I guess I always assumed that, like virtually every other rig
> out there, the K3 has automatic SWR foldback to protect the finals... Am I
> wrong about that?
>
> Bill W5VWO
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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[w7aqk]

Bill and All,

I would think (hope?) it would.  My concern is that it takes
the ATU a while to achieve the 2:1 match on 160.  When I do
it, I do it at reduced power, so that the K3 is hopefully
not working too hard in the process.  This may be done
automatically now, but I was under the impression that for a
time there was no power fold back during tuning.  Easy
enough to verify though, by just putting a power meter on
it.  Anyway, I then crank the power back up, but generally
only to around 70 or 80 watts.  That's may be another
unnecessary precaution, but 80 watts vs. 100 watts won't be
noticed at the other end anyway.  But if my ATU had to
struggle a bit getting that 2:1 match, I feel that I could
easily loose that match very quickly just because the R8
might be bending around in the wind or something.  If
anything up there is a little loose, that 2:1 could become
15:1, or something like that,  in a heartbeat.  Supposedly
the SWR protection would kick in, but I'm just a little shy
about trusting it.  Loading a 26 ft. vertical on 160 meters
just seems a little scary I guess.  I may be kidding myself
thinking I'm making it less risky with these precautions,
but intuitively it seems prudent.  Of course, trying this at
all may be anything but prudent!

It kind of interesting though.  On 80 meters the K3 gets a
1:1 match very quickly.  And that is just about anywhere on
the entire 75/80 meter band.  I expected it to struggle
there a bit too, but it just doesn't.  But results aren't so
hot, and the efficiency is probably pretty sorry.  Since the
R8 is supposedly a "half-wave" system, it presumably is
something like a 1/4 wave on 80 without an effective ground
system to compliment it.  It makes me wonder if there would
be much improvement noticeable by putting up 2 or 3 tuned
radials for 80 meters.  One of these days I may do a little
tinkering with that.

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill W5WVO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions and K3 options? Please!

> David Yarnes wrote:
>
>> but I don't--at least not routinely.  I really only get
>> about 2:1 there, and that tells me "watch out!"  If you
>> can't get something close to 1:1 using the ATU, you
>> probably
>> need to be cut the power back a little or a lot...
>
> I would think the SWR protection circuitry in the K3 would
> do this for you
> automatically. I guess I always assumed that, like
> virtually every other rig
> out there, the K3 has automatic SWR foldback to protect
> the finals... Am I
> wrong about that?
>
> Bill W5VWO
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

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[Paul-285]

> > My problem is
> > that I'm not sure which filters I should add to my order for a primarily CW
> > use radio.

Probably none other than the included 2.7 kc filter, unless you're contesting.

You can always add narrow filters later if you find out that you
really need them.

Paul
N4LCD








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