RST or S - meter readings?
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Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I thought RST was to be honest reportage.
Kevin. KD5ONS -----Original Message----- >From: Thom LaCosta <[hidden email]> >Sent: Jun 7, 2007 2:39 PM >To: Julian G4ILO <[hidden email]> >Cc: elecraft <[hidden email]> >Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: K3: S-meter calibration (redux) > >On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Julian G4ILO wrote: > >> But who cares about S meters? I run QRP. > >Well, with a fully adjustable S-Meter...you could simply ask the other station >what S-Meter report he would like. > >Thom,EIEIO >Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer > >www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon >www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Thu, 7 Jun 2007, Kevin Rock wrote:
> Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I thought RST was to be honest reportage. Well, all we need do is observe signal reports in contests and the quaint notion of RST being an honest report is nullified. I rememeber years ago, at least a 1000, being on 75 meters AM and giving folks S meter reports....until some real ole timer(he had to look like the folks in the Jeeves cartoons in QST asked us where we were measuring the S units...and how. It suddendly dawned on me that: A. I didn't know B. I had no interest in learning how it was done But, I guess if the meter is there...you are tempted to use it. Now folks with insensitive meters had "scotch s-meters"...but we can't say that now, since it ain't PC. I'd really like to have a magic-eye tube instead of an S-meter...they are so interesting...and for output power a neon bulb at least 6 inches long....they are really interesting as you adjust your antenna and the SWR changes. Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer k3hrn www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
Kevin Rock wrote:
> Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I thought RST was to be honest reportage. > Kevin. KD5ONS > It's context dependent, Kevin. If it's a DXpedition or a contest, everyone is 5NN. If it's a QRP contest or QSO, everyone is 56N. If you get a report from me, be aware ... I made it up. Best way to tell your real report at my QTH is to watch and see if I answer your questions. Can't tell you the last time I heard a CW signal that wasn't "xxN" although chirp is a bit more common. The whole system is an anachronism, but old habits die hard. We call it "CW" and mean "communications using the International Morse Code" when CW means "continuous waves." But then, Sam Morse didn't exactly invent the code which carries his name either. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7 - www.cqp.org _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
> We call it "CW" and mean "communications using the International
> Morse Code" when CW means "continuous waves." "Communications using Morse code by keyed continuous waves" in contrast to "communications using Morse code by keyed damped waves," which was the type of signal emitted by those old spark and arc transmitters of yesteryear, until alternators and vacuum tube oscillators were available to emit continuous waves during key-down. CW vs. DW! I wish that there were allowances for damped wave transmissions by amateurs somewhere above 1500 meters for one night each year. Dust off that crystal set. 73, Mike / KK5F _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: RST or S - meter readings?
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
On Thursday 07 June 2007 17:44:31 Kevin Rock wrote:
> Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I don't and never have done in my 28 years as a Radio Amateur. My K2's bar meter is switched off. Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR, K2 #4962 -- _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
On Jun 7, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Kevin Rock wrote: > Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I > thought RST was to be honest reportage. Only when the meter needle is stuck on 9. :^) Maybe we should use meters calibrated for power density or field strength, taking into account antenna gain and feedline loss. That would be honest and consistent. 73, Bob N7XY _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: RST or S - meter readings?
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
IMHO you are correct. As I understand it R and S were intended to report on
how well a signal was being received with T being an honest report of 'tone' in the case of CW signals. I believe that the matter of signal reports began to become 'confused' sometime before I first got on the air in 1946 when somebody had proposed that a 50uV signal at the receiver's input should result in a S9 reading on the 'S' meter, and that each S unit should represent a 6db change in signal level from S9 downwards. This 'standard' had been used certainly in Regions 1 and 2 as far as I know by or before 1946, but most people gave reports based on how well a signal was being received not by S meter readings (if you had a S meter!!). As an aside I have the manual for an ancient Eddystone 640 receiver which makes note of this 'standard'. Worthy of note is that the input impedance of different types of receiver having a 'S' meter varied considerably, some as high as 600 ohms for direct connection to open wire feeders, with the result that the signal power level required to produce a 'standard' S9 reading was not the same in all cases. My personal preference is for a real 'S' meter that wiggles calibrated in dbm at receiver input, but I do not use the 'S' meter when giving reports unless antenna comparisons are being made for example. 73, Geoff GM4ESD Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote: > Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I thought > RST was to be honest reportage. > Kevin. KD5ONS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: RST or S - meter readings?
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
IMHO you are correct. As I understand it R and S were intended to report on
how well a signal was being received with T being an honest report of 'tone' in the case of CW signals. I believe that the matter of signal reports began to become 'confused' sometime before I first got on the air in 1946 when somebody had proposed that a 50uV signal at the receiver's input should result in a S9 reading on the 'S' meter, and that each S unit should represent a 6db change in signal level from S9 downwards. This 'standard' had been used certainly in Regions 1 and 2 as far as I know by or before 1946, but most people gave reports based on how well a signal was being received not by S meter readings (if you had a S meter!!). As an aside I have the manual for an ancient Eddystone 640 receiver which makes note of this 'standard'. Worthy of note is that the input impedance of different types of receiver having a 'S' meter varied considerably, some as high as 600 ohms for direct connection to open wire feeders, with the result that the signal power level required to produce a 'standard' S9 reading was not the same in all cases. My personal preference is for a real 'S' meter that wiggles calibrated in dbm at receiver input, but I do not use the 'S' meter when giving reports unless antenna comparisons are being made for example. 73, Geoff GM4ESD Kevin Rock <[hidden email]> wrote: > Do people really use a meter to give signal reports to people? I thought > RST was to be honest reportage. > Kevin. KD5ONS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In a recent message, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy
<[hidden email]> wrote ... >each S unit should >represent a 6db change in signal level from S9 downwards. This 'standard' >had been used certainly in Regions 1 and 2 as far as I know by or before >1946, but most people gave reports based on how well a signal was being >received not by S meter readings (if you had a S meter!!). As an aside I >have the manual for an ancient Eddystone 640 receiver which makes note of >this 'standard'. FWIW the external plug-in Eddystone S-meter (Cat.669/E)for the 640 has printed on the scale "1 DIVISION = 4db", OTOH the internal S-meter on my 680X says "1R = 6db". -- David G4DMP Leeds, England, UK ------ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: RST or S - meter readings?
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
David Pratt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> FWIW the external plug-in Eddystone S-meter (Cat.669/E)for the 640 has > printed on the scale "1 DIVISION = 4db", OTOH the internal S-meter on my > 680X says "1R = 6db". ------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting, the 640 manual I have refers to the external S-meter ( no Cat. reference) as a 200 uA full scale deflection meter, and then goes on to list S units from 1 to 9 in terms of current indicated quote "based on a figure of 6db change per unit" unquote, after the meter had been set to zero with the "aerial and earth terminals shorted". From this and your comment it would appear that there were two versions of 'S' meter used with the 640 based on different values of S unit increment. 73, Geoff GM4ESD _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
In a message dated 6/7/07 7:22:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes: > Communications using Morse code by keyed continuous waves" in contrast to > "communications using Morse code by keyed damped waves," which was the type of > signal emitted by those old spark and arc transmitters of yesteryear, until > alternators and vacuum tube oscillators were available to emit continuous > waves during key-down. CW vs. DW! > > I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that arc transmitters (like the Poulsen arc) generated continuous (undamped) waves. 73 de Jim, N2EY ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Jim:
Correct -- arc transmitters operated on the negative resistance principle, as a portion of the E vs I curve for an arc has an area of negative resistance. As such, the arc worked as an amplifier or oscillator, thus yielding a continuous wave. (Same concept as a tunnel diode, as a matter of fact.) See pages 44-55 of "The Science of Radio" by Paul Nahin. Jack [hidden email] wrote: > In a message dated 6/7/07 7:22:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [hidden email] writes: > > > >> Communications using Morse code by keyed continuous waves" in contrast to >> "communications using Morse code by keyed damped waves," which was the type of >> signal emitted by those old spark and arc transmitters of yesteryear, until >> alternators and vacuum tube oscillators were available to emit continuous >> waves during key-down. CW vs. DW! >> >> >> > > I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that arc transmitters (like > the Poulsen arc) generated continuous (undamped) waves. > > 73 de Jim, N2EY > > > ************************************** > See what's free at > http://www.aol.com. > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Kevin Rock
Jim wrote:
>...it is my understanding that arc transmitters (like >the Poulsen arc) generated continuous (undamped) waves. Right you are. My mistake. I don't have any transmitters of that era in my collection, though I do have the remanants of a 100-year-old coherer receiver, and a complete WWI U.S. Army SCR-54-A (BC-14-A) crystal receiver. The latter was designed to receive signals from observation aircraft transmitting on a BC-15 spark transmitter. Mike / KK5F _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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