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Re: Balun Questions

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Jim Brown-10

Re: I am officially a HAM!!!

On Tue,2/9/2016 7:57 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
> As of sometime yesterday, 02/08/2016, I was granted my Amateur Radio
> License with General privileges.

Congratulations, Clay. Previous posts from you make it clear that you're
quite competent technically, so I urge you to move ahead to qualify for
your Extra Class license. With your background and study/review of the
material, you should have little difficulty with it.

73, Jim K9YC
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Clay Autery

Re: I am officially a HAM!!!

To Jim:

If I can get my life to settle down a bit, I plan to inhale the Extra
information and test on February 20th at one of my local clubs.
I took it blind on the same day I took the General, but missed passing
it by a few questions.... which I don't mind... I'd rather
take/pass/ace it after I feel better about having mastered the required
information.

To ALL:

Thank you all for the Congrats, well wishes, the stories, and everything
else. I love that something so basic as communication can draw and bind
together such a broad population, the young and old, rich and poor, next
door or literally half-way 'round the globe.

I've spent a good deal of my life choosing up sides in conflicts...
sometimes even wearing a distinctive suit to denote which side I was on
and carrying weapons to drive home my point.

I'd like to finish out my time, however long that might be, enjoying
people and hopefully being a help.

I think this might be one way to make that happen.

May you ALL be blessed beyond your capacity to contain. May your
harvest be so abundant that you provide seed for others to plant that we
ALL may be fed.

Have a wonderful day!

______________________
Clay Autery
KG5LKV

On 2/9/2016 12:25 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Tue,2/9/2016 7:57 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> As of sometime yesterday, 02/08/2016, I was granted my Amateur Radio
>> License with General privileges.
>
> Congratulations, Clay. Previous posts from you make it clear that
> you're quite competent technically, so I urge you to move ahead to
> qualify for your Extra Class license. With your background and
> study/review of the material, you should have little difficulty with it.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

NK7Z

Re: Balun Questions

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Hi Jim,

I have been reading about your exploits with THHN, and the 100 to 50
ohm change caused by the insulation...

I am going to pick some up today and wind a choke using it, (as opposed
to enameled 14 GA copper), to see just how close to 50 ohms it will
come... Any last minute tips?

BTW, thanks again for publishing all of your work!

--
73's, and thanks,
Dave

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 10:10 -0800, Jim Brown wrote:

> I have addressed this by showing photographs of winding techniques
> for
> coax normally used for transmitting, and for short lengths of
> transmission line formed by taping together a pair of 4-6 ft of #12
> THHN. There's also text that goes with it, noting that winding
> radius
> should follow mfr recommendations for bending radius, that close
> spacing
> should be used to lower the resonant frequency and wider spacing to
> raise it.
>
> Note also that the dielectric constant of outer jacket material can
> have
> a quite significant effect on the bandwidth of ferrite chokes. For
> example, the bandwidth of those THHN chokes is MUCH greater than
> chokes
> would with typical RG8, RG213, RG11. Years ago, someone sent me a
> length
> of one of the teflon coaxes and I measured some chokes. As I recall,
> their bandwidth was lower than those wound with conventional coax.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On Tue,2/9/2016 7:45 AM, James Robbins wrote:
> >
> > Good morning Jim,
> >
> > I am wondering if you could opine about how “tightly” coax needs to
> > be
> > wound around a torroid for balun use (or other uses, for that
> > matter)?
> >
> > In other words, while there have been so many Elecraft postings
> > about
> > the bending  radii of various types of coax, there is no
> > information
> > posted about how tightly (closely) the coax needs to be wound
> > around
> > the edge of the toroid.  (When I have wound small torroids with
> > magnet
> > wire, the winding is tight against the core.  I’m not sure this is
> > even possible, let alone needed, for a balun.)
> >
> > If this is in one of your “papers”, please just refer me to the
> > paper
> > and I’ll dig it out.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Jim Robbins
> >
> > N1JR
> >
>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Balun Questions

Yes, insulation does in effect cause the electrical length to change.

Case and point, construct a 1/2 wave antenna using insulated wire, put
it up and determine the resonant frequency or point where the SWR is
1:1. Then take it down, carefully strip off the insulation and put it
back in the same place. Make the same measurements to determine
resonant frequency or point where the SWR is 1:1. You'll find it
changed due to the K factor contributed by the insulation.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 2/9/2016 1:46 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> I have been reading about your exploits with THHN, and the 100 to 50
> ohm change caused by the insulation...
>
> I am going to pick some up today and wind a choke using it, (as opposed
> to enameled 14 GA copper), to see just how close to 50 ohms it will
> come... Any last minute tips?
>
> BTW, thanks again for publishing all of your work!
>

Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Re: I am officially a HAM!!!

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

Congratulations, Clay! Welcome to the greatest hobby on earth. Hope to work you down the bands sometime.

73 de,

--Ian
Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA EM74ua
[hidden email]
10-10 #74624, North Georgia Chapter #2038
PODXS 070 #1962
K3# 281, P3 #688, KAT500 #860, KPA500 #1468

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Clay Autery
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2016 10:58 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] I am officially a HAM!!!

As of sometime yesterday, 02/08/2016, I was granted my Amateur Radio License with General privileges.

Thank you to everyone who had a hand in making this possible. I am quite happy and yes, a little proud, too.

In just a few hours, I will take possession of my Elecraft K3s and P3 components.
I have two super selfless, super-experienced, super-patient operators who've taken an interest in me.
And I have TWO local clubs available to me from whose members I can learn and through which I can contribute to the hobby and my community.

My cup truly runneth over... Thank you, Lord!

73,
Clay, KG5LKV

On 2/9/2016 9:06 AM, Robert Nobis wrote:

> Hi Bob McGraw,
>
> I agree, except on one point: I’s say 90%, rather than 75%, of the stuff we use and methods employed would put most of the station stuff in the trash.
>
> 73,
>
>
> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
> [hidden email]
>
>
>> On Feb 9, 2016, at 08:01, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'm one of the other Bob's or Robert's........
>>
>> Since the assembly of coax wound around a toroid doughnut style bobbin is typically not exposed to vibration, such as might exist in an airplane, boat or space vehicle, the use of a solid conductor coax such as RG-303 would not seem to be of concern. The more important point and my experience and as related by others, the use of coax which has foam dielectric in a tight radius bend has been proven or shown to be problematic. As to if the manufactures bending radius dimension is being violated, I find to be of little concern.
>>
>> After all, as a rule, hams are noted for pushing things to the limit and then some and getting buy with it. If hams choose to "stick to the rules 100% in all aspects of their stations"............I'd say 75% of the stuff we use and methods employed would put most of the station stuff in the trash.
>>
>> 73
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/9/2016 8:45 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>> Hi Bob, et al,
>>>
>>> Thank you all for your careful attention.
>>>
>>> I read it wrong, as several have pointed out overnight. I transposed
>>> that to a percentage in my memory after reading it. One of the
>>> reasons for referring people to the original material in these
>>> cases. Someone will get it right.
>>>
>>> That makes it two and a half hairs :>) Doesn't appear to change the
>>> argument. To me anyway the method is still a crude measurement
>>> instead of watching a wide frequency scan while bending the cable
>>> along with other performance specific measurements.
>>>
>>> I still would not use the solid center conductor versions
>>> (RG142/303) on a winding.
>>>
>>> 73, Guy K2AV
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 9, 2016, Robert Nobis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Guy,
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure how you arrived at the “2/1000 of an inch” figure
>>>> from the ANSI spec? The spec actually says “A change in ovality
>>>> from a given sample’s initial measured value of 0.010 inches or
>>>> more (> 0.010) represents the point of non-acceptable bending performance.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob Nobis - N7RJN
>>>> [hidden email] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[hidden email]');>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 8, 2016, at 18:01, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[hidden email]');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also suggest that everyone carefully study the ANSI standard
>>>> until it is clear what they are doing mechanically and see what
>>>> they are actually
>>>> measuring:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/standards/ANSI_SCTE%2039%202007.p
>>>> df
>>>>
>>>> The method of measuring is in section 4. They are looking for a
>>>> limit of 1% surface deformity when bending.
>>>>
>>>> In the case of RG400 with .195 inch OD, that would be 2/1000 of an
>>>> inch (yes, that's three zeros, two one thousandths of an inch)
>>>> bending deformity at the surface of the teflon jacket, or half the
>>>> thickness of an average human hair.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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NK7Z

Re: Balun Questions

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Thank you Bob...
--
73's, and thanks,
Dave

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 14:28 -0600, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> Yes, insulation does in effect cause the electrical length to change.
>
> Case and point, construct a 1/2 wave antenna using insulated wire,
> put
> it up and determine the resonant frequency or point where the SWR is
> 1:1.   Then take it down, carefully strip off the insulation and put
> it
> back in the same place.  Make the same measurements to determine
> resonant frequency or point where the SWR is 1:1.  You'll find it
> changed due to the K factor contributed by the insulation.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 2/9/2016 1:46 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > I have been reading about your exploits with THHN, and the 100 to
> > 50
> > ohm change caused by the insulation...
> >
> > I am going to pick some up today and wind a choke using it, (as
> > opposed
> > to enameled 14 GA copper), to see just how close to 50 ohms it will
> > come...  Any last minute tips?
> >
> > BTW, thanks again for publishing all of your work!
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: Balun Questions

In reply to this post by NK7Z

On Tue,2/9/2016 11:46 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> I have been reading about your exploits with THHN, and the 100 to 50
> ohm change caused by the insulation...

Note that my observations are confirming results published several
decades ago by Jerry Sevick, W2FMI. My observations of Zo and Vf are on
the basis of measurements using a VNA and exporting data to AC6LA's
ZPlots Excel spreadsheet. I consider my data good to about 15% for Zo
and 10% for Vf.

> I am going to pick some up today and wind a choke using it, (as opposed
> to enameled 14 GA copper), to see just how close to 50 ohms it will
> come... Any last minute tips?

You may have been confused by my writing. Enameled wire tends close to
50 ohms, THHN in the range of 85-100 ohms.

73, Jim
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Billy Cox

Re: I am officially a HAM!!!

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

CONGRATS Clay, and welcome to the hobby!

73 de Billy, AA4NU

----- Original Message -----

From: "Clay Autery"

As of sometime yesterday, 02/08/2016, I was granted my Amateur Radio
License with General privileges.

Thank you to everyone who had a hand in making this possible. I am
quite happy and yes, a little proud, too.

In just a few hours, I will take possession of my Elecraft K3s and P3
components.

I have two super selfless, super-experienced, super-patient operators
who've taken an interest in me.

And I have TWO local clubs available to me from whose members I can
learn and through which I can contribute to the hobby and my community.

My cup truly runneth over... Thank you, Lord!

73,
Clay, KG5LKV
______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Clay Autery

Seeking loop Antenna Parts

So, based on a brief survey today, my first "real" antenna will be a
nominally horizontal delta loop, while I save for and get construction
designs approved for my tower. I'm seeking some specific parts and
"preferred" vendors:

1) 3 each, 3" / 75mm MINIMUM diameter "plastic" (UV resistant) hanging
pulley with swivel eye, sealed ball bearings, for cable/cord diameter of
3/16"
I don't see what I want readily available. I can build them, but I'd
prefer to not have to. Yes, 75mm minimum diameter to minimize loop wire
wear/hardening and maximize freedom of movement.

2) 500-1000' Dacron/Polyester cordage in grey, brown, OD green, black in
that order.

3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.

4) telescopic pole, preferably cable of free-standing with loop
attachment NLT 30' with minimal tip flex. I can build this using
locally sourced materials, some drilling, welding of supplemental
retention nuts, and tapping, etc, but I'd prefer to get this up in the air.
Alternatively, I could provide counter loop guy(s).

The rest I can likely source locally. If I wasn't trying to get
operational "with dispatch", I'd simply custom build the pulleys and
station point pole. I may still do so.

______________________
Clay Autery
KG5LKV

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

Clay,

You should be able to find suitable pulleys and cord at a marine supply
store.

I would recommend using hard drawn copper for the wire rather than
THHN. You can find THHN at your local DIY store. For hard drawn
copper, look at The Wireman www.thewireman.com.

A 32 foot heavy duty telescoping pole can be found at The Mast Co.
www.themastco.com.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/10/2016 4:58 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

> So, based on a brief survey today, my first "real" antenna will be a
> nominally horizontal delta loop, while I save for and get construction
> designs approved for my tower. I'm seeking some specific parts and
> "preferred" vendors:
>
> 1) 3 each, 3" / 75mm MINIMUM diameter "plastic" (UV resistant) hanging
> pulley with swivel eye, sealed ball bearings, for cable/cord diameter of
> 3/16"
> I don't see what I want readily available. I can build them, but I'd
> prefer to not have to. Yes, 75mm minimum diameter to minimize loop wire
> wear/hardening and maximize freedom of movement.
>
> 2) 500-1000' Dacron/Polyester cordage in grey, brown, OD green, black in
> that order.
>
> 3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.
>
> 4) telescopic pole, preferably cable of free-standing with loop
> attachment NLT 30' with minimal tip flex. I can build this using
> locally sourced materials, some drilling, welding of supplemental
> retention nuts, and tapping, etc, but I'd prefer to get this up in the air.
> Alternatively, I could provide counter loop guy(s).
>

Ronnie Hull

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

Clay I have rolls and rolls of thhn. As for pulleys and etc Home Depot can help. Keep it simple. It will work
Better
Hard drawn is totally not necessary for your loop. And it's expensive
How are you feeding the loop? 450 or 300 ohm line is best. If your going to use it on multiple bands stay away from coax.
You will need a good outdoor Balun that the window line will hook to then you feed the bottom of the Balun with a short run of RG8 or 214.
The impedence matcher in your K3s ( PLEASE tell me you ordered it with one, some people call it an antenna tuner ) will handle this setup very sweetly !
Go over and look at k5sl's setup since he is closer to you than I am

Call me anytime

Ronnie
Sent from Ronnie's IPhone

> On Feb 10, 2016, at 06:41, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Clay,
>
> You should be able to find suitable pulleys and cord at a marine supply store.
>
> I would recommend using hard drawn copper for the wire rather than THHN. You can find THHN at your local DIY store. For hard drawn copper, look at The Wireman www.thewireman.com.
>
> A 32 foot heavy duty telescoping pole can be found at The Mast Co. www.themastco.com.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>> On 2/10/2016 4:58 AM, Clay Autery wrote:
>> So, based on a brief survey today, my first "real" antenna will be a
>> nominally horizontal delta loop, while I save for and get construction
>> designs approved for my tower. I'm seeking some specific parts and
>> "preferred" vendors:
>>
>> 1) 3 each, 3" / 75mm MINIMUM diameter "plastic" (UV resistant) hanging
>> pulley with swivel eye, sealed ball bearings, for cable/cord diameter of
>> 3/16"
>> I don't see what I want readily available. I can build them, but I'd
>> prefer to not have to. Yes, 75mm minimum diameter to minimize loop wire
>> wear/hardening and maximize freedom of movement.
>>
>> 2) 500-1000' Dacron/Polyester cordage in grey, brown, OD green, black in
>> that order.
>>
>> 3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.
>>
>> 4) telescopic pole, preferably cable of free-standing with loop
>> attachment NLT 30' with minimal tip flex. I can build this using
>> locally sourced materials, some drilling, welding of supplemental
>> retention nuts, and tapping, etc, but I'd prefer to get this up in the air.
>> Alternatively, I could provide counter loop guy(s).
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Russ Tobolic

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

For the rope, try qualitynylonrope.com I'm not sure if they have grey or brown but I bought a 500ft spool of 3/16" black polyester for $42. AND they have free shipping for orders over $25. Russ, N3CO

From: Clay Autery <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 4:58 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Seeking loop Antenna Parts

So, based on a brief survey today, my first "real" antenna will be a
nominally horizontal delta loop, while I save for and get construction
designs approved for my tower. I'm seeking some specific parts and
"preferred" vendors:

1) 3 each, 3" / 75mm MINIMUM diameter "plastic" (UV resistant) hanging
pulley with swivel eye, sealed ball bearings, for cable/cord diameter of
3/16"
I don't see what I want readily available. I can build them, but I'd
prefer to not have to. Yes, 75mm minimum diameter to minimize loop wire
wear/hardening and maximize freedom of movement.

2) 500-1000' Dacron/Polyester cordage in grey, brown, OD green, black in
that order.

3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.

4) telescopic pole, preferably cable of free-standing with loop
attachment NLT 30' with minimal tip flex. I can build this using
locally sourced materials, some drilling, welding of supplemental
retention nuts, and tapping, etc, but I'd prefer to get this up in the air.
Alternatively, I could provide counter loop guy(s).

The rest I can likely source locally. If I wasn't trying to get
operational "with dispatch", I'd simply custom build the pulleys and
station point pole. I may still do so.

______________________
Clay Autery
KG5LKV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On Wed,2/10/2016 4:41 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Clay,
>
> You should be able to find suitable pulleys and cord at a marine
> supply store.

Pulleys yes. Cord at a marine store will be expensive. Here's a link to
the company that makes great antenna rope that is resold by several
large ham vendors. 3/16-in is enough for strength, but 5/16-in is easier
to grip if you need to pull it to put a lot of tension on it.

http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html

> I would recommend using hard drawn copper for the wire rather than
> THHN. You can find THHN at your local DIY store. For hard drawn
> copper, look at The Wireman www.thewireman.com.

The only issue with THHN is that it stretches if under load. I have high
dipoles under about 100# tension, and I have to trim them every few
years. Another way to do hard drawn copper is to buy #8 bare copper at
your local big box store and stretch it yourself. Cut a few hundred
foot length, tie one end to a tree or telephone pole, the other end to a
trailer hitch, and pull VERY slowly until it breaks. The result is hard
drawn copper that is 15-20% longer.

Before you commit resources to a loop, take a look at the antenna
planning applications notes on my website. k9yc.com/publish.htm

In general, low horizontal antennas have poor efficiency. Antennas that
lack common mode chokes at the feedpoint are noisy on RX, and it's not
practical to choke most non-resonant antennas. If ground conductivity is
good in your area, a roof-mounted multi-band vertical could be an
excellent choice. Study the FCC map. To choose a vertical, study the
N0AX/K7LXC report on their measurements of the performance of a dozen or
so HF verticals. Available from Champion Radio Products. Well worth the
$35 or so that it costs. While you're there, also buy the report on
tri-band Yagis -- you'll benefit when buying something to put on that
tower when you get around to it. This work was done about 15 years ago,
but the laws of physics don't change. :) N0AX is now editor of the ARRL
Handbook and the ARRL Antenna Book -- he's a fine engineer who really
knows his stuff.

https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/m3-ground-conductivity-map

73, Jim K9YC

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nels.nelsen_NE7LS

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

Copper is fine for conductivity but:

multistrand copper coated steel

is longer lasting. Just remember this when you start trouble shooting
strange swr in a couple of years. Copper breaks so easy.Go to the
Wireman.com for some good wire.

NE7LS

On Feb 10, 2016 1:59 AM, "Clay Autery" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.
>
> 4)

n_n
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N2TK

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In the Caribbean the sun and salt spray gives short life to most wires. I
bought on eBay several years ago stranded silver-solder tinned copper wire
with a Teflon coating. It doesn't seem to have stretched much and the Teflon
coating is holding up very well. I used #14 on 160M and #12 on 80M. Here in
NY I use #20 for receive antennas.

So, I guess it depends on your climate what works best and what is the best
value.

GL.
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nels
Nelsen
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 1:37 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Seeking loop Antenna Parts

Copper is fine for conductivity but:

multistrand copper coated steel

is longer lasting. Just remember this when you start trouble shooting
strange swr in a couple of years. Copper breaks so easy.Go to the
Wireman.com for some good wire.

NE7LS

On Feb 10, 2016 1:59 AM, "Clay Autery" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.
>
> 4)

n_n
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by nels.nelsen_NE7LS

One point to consider if running the antenna wire through a pulley. It
will work back and forth in the wind and as trees move. The constant
flexing will take its toll on the wire. A stranded wire with insulation
I have found preferred and lives longer. Also, use large diameter
pulleys to keep the bending to a minimum. With a fixed terminating
point and three pulleys, forming somewhat of a square, only one counter
weight is required at one corner to keep the wire tight.

And yes, feed it with a balanced line of your choice. Do bring it all
the way into the house, thus avoiding any coax runs to the balun or
matching network. On QRZ.COM, you can see my balanced line section
from the tuner, running up the wall, through the ceiling, to the attic
and to the outside. Lightning protection is on the outside before the
line enters the house.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S, s/n 10163

On 2/10/2016 12:37 PM, Nels Nelsen wrote:

> Copper is fine for conductivity but:
>
> multistrand copper coated steel
>
> is longer lasting. Just remember this when you start trouble shooting
> strange swr in a couple of years. Copper breaks so easy.Go to the
> Wireman.com for some good wire.
>
> NE7LS
>
>
>
> On Feb 10, 2016 1:59 AM, "Clay Autery" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 3) 500' nominal, 14 AWG, THHN stranded annealed copper, gray.
>>
>> 4)
> n_n
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

john@kk9a.com

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

I never had a problem with THHN, but stranded copper weld had a very short
life in Aruba.

John KK9A - P40A

N2TK, Tony tony.kaz at verizon.net
Wed Feb 10 14:00:43 EST 2016

In the Caribbean the sun and salt spray gives short life to most wires. I
bought on eBay several years ago stranded silver-solder tinned copper wire
with a Teflon coating. It doesn't seem to have stretched much and the Teflon
coating is holding up very well. I used #14 on 160M and #12 on 80M. Here in
NY I use #20 for receive antennas.

So, I guess it depends on your climate what works best and what is the best
value.

GL.
N2TK, Tony

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Clay Autery

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

The rigging you describe is almost exactly what I am planning.

I can replace broken 14 AWG THHN 3 times for the price diff... IF it
breaks... and I will simply use a non-stretching down-line on the
tension weight and monitor its descent toward the ground to determine if
and when to trim the loop back and re-terminate.

I'd use that snazzy, 30% copper over steel stuff if I didn't have the
system/access to maintain/replace the loop and I needed it to stay put
for years and years... the insulation vs. bare wire has some measurable
impact on radiation characteristics, but at this point, I'll just get a
loop in the air so I can get on the air when I finish assembling and
testing my K3s.

Thank you and ALL of y'all for y'alls help and opinions, et al. I have
lots of new information and docs to read/study. :-)

______________________
Clay Autery
KG5LKV
(318) 518-1389

On 2/10/2016 3:59 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> That support rope Jim referenced has done a great job here for a number of
> years supporting wire antennas over 100 feet long hung in tall fir trees. I
> did provide strain relief - a pulley at one end attached to a weight so the
> tree can move freely. We do get winds gusting over 60 mph here most winters
> and the rope has handled the shock load of the tree whipping and jerking on
> a 20 lb weight.
>
> The wire I use is hard drawn stranded copper. I purchased mine through Ham
> Radio Outlet back when I lived near one of their stores. It is also on line
> at:
> http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=71-001462
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Pulleys yes. Cord at a marine store will be expensive. Here's a link to the
> company that makes great antenna rope that is resold by several large ham
> vendors. 3/16-in is enough for strength, but 5/16-in is easier to grip if
> you need to pull it to put a lot of tension on it.
>
> http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html
>
>> I would recommend using hard drawn copper for the wire rather than
>> THHN. You can find THHN at your local DIY store. For hard drawn
>> copper, look at The Wireman www.thewireman.com.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Yes, with copper weld it is copper plated over steel. Once the copper
gets pitted or scored, the elements can get to the steel core, it will
rust, expand under the copper causing the copper to further shed and the
steel will rust and break. If one must uses solid or stranded, hard
drawn is preferred.

73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S, s/n 10163

On 2/10/2016 2:57 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I never had a problem with THHN, but stranded copper weld had a very short
> life in Aruba.
>
> John KK9A - P40A
>
>
> N2TK, Tony tony.kaz at verizon.net
> Wed Feb 10 14:00:43 EST 2016
>
> In the Caribbean the sun and salt spray gives short life to most wires. I
> bought on eBay several years ago stranded silver-solder tinned copper wire
> with a Teflon coating. It doesn't seem to have stretched much and the Teflon
> coating is holding up very well. I used #14 on 160M and #12 on 80M. Here in
> NY I use #20 for receive antennas.
>
> So, I guess it depends on your climate what works best and what is the best
> value.
>
> GL.
> N2TK, Tony
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Ronnie Hull

Re: Seeking loop Antenna Parts

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Clay
Hard drawn, copper weld, copper plated steel stranded is all GOOD STUFF.
BUT.. you DON’T NEED IT HERE!
I live 12 miles from you as the crow flies. My 80 meter full wave loop made
out of THHN has been up for
16 years and has never broken or developed high standing wave. I DO see some
of the clear
coating coming off but the insulation itself is intact. I will GIVE you all
the THHN you need.

PLEASE save your money for other things you need.

Ronnie W5SUM

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 3:59 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Seeking loop Antenna Parts

That support rope Jim referenced has done a great job here for a number of
years supporting wire antennas over 100 feet long hung in tall fir trees. I
did provide strain relief - a pulley at one end attached to a weight so the
tree can move freely. We do get winds gusting over 60 mph here most winters
and the rope has handled the shock load of the tree whipping and jerking on
a 20 lb weight.

The wire I use is hard drawn stranded copper. I purchased mine through Ham
Radio Outlet back when I lived near one of their stores. It is also on line
at:
http://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=71-001462

73, Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----
Pulleys yes. Cord at a marine store will be expensive. Here's a link to the
company that makes great antenna rope that is resold by several large ham
vendors. 3/16-in is enough for strength, but 5/16-in is easier to grip if
you need to pull it to put a lot of tension on it.

http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html

> I would recommend using hard drawn copper for the wire rather than
> THHN. You can find THHN at your local DIY store. For hard drawn
> copper, look at The Wireman www.thewireman.com.

73, Jim K9YC

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