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Re: Is the K2 old technology

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Conway Yee

Re: Is the K2 old technology

N8XMS writes:
>First, is the K2 "long in the tooth"? Am I spending a significant
>amount of money on technology that is on it's way to being obsolete?

W9ILF writes:
>Much of it comes from the fact this reflector seems to be 95% K3 talk.

I've been thinking about this thread for awhile. Is the K2 outdated
technology? I would say yes almost without equivocation.

Ham radio in general is outdated. I have a cellphone in my pocket that
has <<1 watt output and gives CONFIDENT point-to-point communication
around the world under virtually all reasonable circumstances. The
Internet also gives much more convenient worldwide communication. The
only advantage ham radio has in communication in the absence of
intervening infrastructure.

The construction of the K2 is also outdated technology. The IC choices
are now increasingly difficult to find (in any form factor as the designs
themselves are getting discontinued). SMT is now the norm in industry and
DIP is outdated. Software defined radio rather than hardware is now
becoming the norm.

The K2 is the state of the art in ONLY an extreme niche. Specifically it
is likely the highest performing hardware radio that is available for
construction by a hobbyist from the component level. Given technical
advances in electronics, it is likely to remain the state of the art for
the foreseeable future.

As far as maintainability, I see no insurmountable challenges. After all,
there are Model T and Delorean clubs keeping those cars on the road. With
the Internet available, communication with enthusiasts are easier than
with newsletters (e.g. FoxTango). Elecraft is too small a company to
manufacture any part that is not easily reversed engineered. Sooner or
later nearly all the DIP IC's will be not available on the market. At
this point, since the technology used in the K2 was relatively generic, we
will figure out that the chips (say 612 or the 3150) was used in massive
quantities in a Sony Walkman or a Technics audio amplifier. Ebay prices
on such items will be negligible and Elecraft enthusiasts can buy someone
else's junk for pennies on the dollar.

tnx.
Conway Yee, N2JWQ

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Vic K2VCO

Re: Is the K2 old technology

Conway Yee wrote:

> The K2 is the state of the art in ONLY an extreme niche. Specifically it
> is likely the highest performing hardware radio that is available for
> construction by a hobbyist from the component level. Given technical
> advances in electronics, it is likely to remain the state of the art for
> the foreseeable future.

It is also state of the art in another niche, that of low-power-drain QRP contesting. The
combination of performance and low power consumption hits the 'sweet spot' for Field Day
1a battery class, for example.

There are radios that perform better and there are radios that consume less power, but the
K2 is the perfect compromise in this regard. It is also big enough to operate without
getting cramped but still reasonably small and lightweight. The KAT2 tuner adds almost no
power consumption and is extremely flexible.

Even if I weren't sentimental about it -- I built it in 1999 and have made many mods over
the years -- and although I have a better-performing K3, I'd never give it up.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Joe Planisky

Re: Is the K2 old technology

In reply to this post by Conway Yee

> SMT is now the norm in industry and DIP is outdated. [...] Sooner or
> later nearly all the DIP IC's will be not available on the market.

If it becomes a matter of form factor only (i.e. the chips are only
available in SMT format,) SMT-to-DIP adapter boards are readily
available. Just search for "DIP adapter" on your favorite search
engine.

> As far as maintainability, I see no insurmountable challenges. [...]
> Elecraft is too small a company to manufacture any part that is not
> easily reversed engineered.

Except for one: firmware. Without source code, it would be pretty
difficult to reverse engineer the functionality in the various
microcontrollers in any rig. And there are legal issues to consider
as well. I'm confident that as long as Wayne, Eric, et al. are in
charge, replacement uC parts will remain available. But those guys
won't be in charge forever. The next batch of folks who control
Elecraft might not be as conscientious. :-)

I'm not quite sure why the thought of a uC chip failure making my K2
unrepairable bothers me so much. I have lots of other electronic
devices that rely on custom chips or embedded software for their
functionality, and yet the thought of them becoming useless because of
a uC failure doesn't concern me. For some reason, with my ham rigs it
feels different.

73
--
Joe KB8AP

On Jan 11, 2010, at 7:11 AM, Conway Yee wrote:

> N8XMS writes:
>> First, is the K2 "long in the tooth"? Am I spending a significant
>> amount of money on technology that is on it's way to being obsolete?
>
> W9ILF writes:
>> Much of it comes from the fact this reflector seems to be 95% K3
>> talk.
>
> I've been thinking about this thread for awhile. Is the K2 outdated
> technology? I would say yes almost without equivocation.
>
> Ham radio in general is outdated. I have a cellphone in my pocket
> that
> has <<1 watt output and gives CONFIDENT point-to-point communication
> around the world under virtually all reasonable circumstances. The
> Internet also gives much more convenient worldwide communication. The
> only advantage ham radio has in communication in the absence of
> intervening infrastructure.
>
> The construction of the K2 is also outdated technology. The IC
> choices
> are now increasingly difficult to find (in any form factor as the
> designs
> themselves are getting discontinued). SMT is now the norm in
> industry and
> DIP is outdated. Software defined radio rather than hardware is now
> becoming the norm.
>
> The K2 is the state of the art in ONLY an extreme niche.
> Specifically it
> is likely the highest performing hardware radio that is available for
> construction by a hobbyist from the component level. Given technical
> advances in electronics, it is likely to remain the state of the art
> for
> the foreseeable future.
>
> As far as maintainability, I see no insurmountable challenges. After
> all,
> there are Model T and Delorean clubs keeping those cars on the
> road. With
> the Internet available, communication with enthusiasts are easier than
> with newsletters (e.g. FoxTango). Elecraft is too small a company to
> manufacture any part that is not easily reversed engineered. Sooner
> or
> later nearly all the DIP IC's will be not available on the market. At
> this point, since the technology used in the K2 was relatively
> generic, we
> will figure out that the chips (say 612 or the 3150) was used in
> massive
> quantities in a Sony Walkman or a Technics audio amplifier. Ebay
> prices
> on such items will be negligible and Elecraft enthusiasts can buy
> someone
> else's junk for pennies on the dollar.
>
> tnx.
> Conway Yee, N2JWQ

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Conway Yee

Re: Is the K2 old technology

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>although I have a better-performing K3, I'd never give it up.

Look forward to the sad day when I actually finish the K2, I am planning
my next project. While the K3 looks like a much less challenging project,
I am intrigued. In what sense does the K3 outperform the K2?

tnx.
Conway Yee, N2JWQ

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Bert Craig-2

Re: Is the K2 old technology

Was Conway's question ever adequately explored/answered? As a current K2/100
(& K1) owner and prospective buyer of a K3, I'd love to hear the opinions of
those who already own both rigs. The Ten-Tec Orion II is also on the table
with regard to my anticipated 2010 present to myself. (My off-duty
commanding officer has already approved the purchase - hihi.) HNY to all.
Take care es...

Vy 73 de Bert
WA2SI

-----Original Message-----
From: Conway Yee [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:02 PM
To: Vic K2VCO
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Is the K2 old technology

"In what sense does the K3 outperform the K2?"

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ac0h

Re: Is the K2 old technology

I'm in the same boat as you and my choice was made over a year ago.
I will be getting a K3. The K3 is a little bit better than the O2 in
specs but the thing that swings it for me is the fantastic Elecraft
support. I think I read on the reflector that the O2's firmware hasn't
been updated in over a year. How many K3 updates have been sent out this
last year?

As for the K3 vs. K2 question,
K3 has the better receiver although the K2 can put to shame some of the
mid level rigs being sold today. K3 is an all mode TX/RX where the K2 is
CW/SSB.
The K2 has much lower power consumption than the K3 owing to it's design
as a QRP rig and lack of bells and whistles.

I like to think that comparing the K2 to the K3 is like comparing the
Kenwood TS-520 to the Kenwood TS-830 of yore.

Bert Craig wrote:

> Was Conway's question ever adequately explored/answered? As a current K2/100
> (& K1) owner and prospective buyer of a K3, I'd love to hear the opinions of
> those who already own both rigs. The Ten-Tec Orion II is also on the table
> with regard to my anticipated 2010 present to myself. (My off-duty
> commanding officer has already approved the purchase - hihi.) HNY to all.
> Take care es...
>
> Vy 73 de Bert
> WA2SI
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Conway Yee [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 11:02 PM
> To: Vic K2VCO
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Is the K2 old technology
>
> "In what sense does the K3 outperform the K2?"
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

--
R. Kevin Stover

ACØH

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lstavenhagen

Re: Is the K2 old technology

In reply to this post by Conway Yee

Just finished reading this thread, very interesting!

I would just add that outdated doesn't necessary mean no longer useful or that you throw it away. CW is the only mode I use on HF. In fact, I think I have around 10 total SSB/AM contacts on HF since I was first licensed as a novice in, IIRC, 1974 at age 10 as WN1WWW (Yes, that was really my very first call sign).
At first, it was the only mode I was allowed to use and then as my proficiency improved, it eventually became the only mode I _wanted_ to use. In fact, over the years I found myself upgrading my ticket to get the extra CW bandwidth, especially those bottom 25kc's of the bands, rather than the extra SSB sections.

So, me and my preferred mode are even outdated within amateur radio! But it's still my favorite mode on the HF bands and still the only mode I use. I lost the mic to my 706MKIIG about 8 years ago right after I bought it (i think it was during a move to a new apt) and in fact don't know if it still even works on SSB (works fine on CW).
I had a pair of Heathkits (the SB 301, 401) for a while where this was true. I didn't discover the transmitter didn't work at all on SSB until I went to sell it and the buyer pointed that out to me. Uh oh...
But I still used them for years and they were fine CW rigs.

As for the K2, well, according to the specs and reports, its receiver still seems to outperform most of the other rigs on the market. Seems like you have to get into a pretty high-end rig from other manufacturers to get the same performance level.

So I finally ordered one this am and if all goes well it'll become my next rig.

So whether something's really outdated or not, I guess it depends on who you talk to and what they're using it for.....

Just my .02,

73,
LS
W5QD

Amanda25650

Re: Is the K2 old technology

In reply to this post by Conway Yee