Re: K3 AGC Adjustment Parameters

[adamkern]

Wayne,

I read your reply to this thread with great consideration.

I think your observation that most field testers did not
adjust the AGC parameters is a good one.

However, I think that that K3--and the Elecraft product line
in general--particularly appeals to people who value amateur
experimentation.

Perhaps the solution is to enable the AGC customization
feature, and simply state explicitly in the instructions with
a large caveat and explanation the fact that most people do
not change the setting, and most of those who do, do so to
their detriment.  That statistic speaks for itself.  Those who
are so inclined can proceed at their own risk.

I, for one, would not plan on tweaking the feature.  But for
someone who, after all, is planning on assembling his own K3,
it's nice to know the option is there :)

Adam, N1KO
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[Vic K2VCO]

[hidden email] wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> I read your reply to this thread with great consideration.
>
> I think your observation that most field testers did not
> adjust the AGC parameters is a good one.
>
> However, I think that that K3--and the Elecraft product line
> in general--particularly appeals to people who value amateur
> experimentation.

I don't presume to speak for Wayne, but I don't see a problem here.

There are literally hundreds of parameters in a radio like the K3 that
could be made adjustable. Some of them are extremely useful because they
allow you to customize the rig for your personal preferences (like the
AGC slope) and others because they are related to integration with other
station equipment or your environment (like the high and low gain
settings for the mic and speaker/phones amplifiers).

If everything that could be adjustable was, you'd have a huge menu,
people would find it confusing and hard to use, and they would set
things wrong and forget what they changed and how to reset it. It would
not be a better radio, it would be a worse radio. One of the decisions
out of the thousands that Wayne had to make was to choose a reasonable
set of configurable parameters. Everybody might not agree with the set
that he chose, but then everybody isn't happy with the size of the K3,
or the available options, etc.

In the case of the AGC, he removed some things that were there before,
so you might feel that you had lost something. Actually -- I hope I
don't get into trouble for saying this -- there were a lot of things on
the early field test units that went away as the firmware was developed.
Some were there for the development team to tweak, some turned out not
to be useful, some could seriously compromise performance, etc.

The AGC attack parameter is a particularly good example.  It was
originally made adjustable so that the owner could find a compromise
between fast AGC action and immunity to noise spikes that might
inappropriately trigger the AGC. But when they came up with the AGC
Pulse function, it was unnecessary. All it could do is make the AGC
perform worse.

What Wayne did was make about twenty zillion interrelated choices, each
one of which affected performance, usability, cost, sex appeal, and many
other things. He made what I think is a radio with an excellent balance
of all of these things.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[wayne burdick]

We knew we'd get a lot of new feedback on firmware issues once we
released the manual.

After a huge amount of private e-mail and discussion today over the AGC
issue, I've concluded that some of the AGC controls should go back in.
They might not be available the instant you get your K3, however.

The next revision of the manual (A3) will reflect the changes.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

---

http://www.elecraft.com

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[Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone]]

Can the values of all these parameters be uploaded and downloaded from
the control port?  If so, someone (I wish I could) needs to write a
program to do those functions and display them all with the
differences from defaults marked.

73, doug

   Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:48:36 -0700
   From: Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>

   There are literally hundreds of parameters in a radio like the K3 that
   could be made adjustable. Some of them are extremely useful because they
   allow you to customize the rig for your personal preferences (like the
   AGC slope) and others because they are related to integration with other
   station equipment or your environment (like the high and low gain
   settings for the mic and speaker/phones amplifiers).

   If everything that could be adjustable was, you'd have a huge menu,
   people would find it confusing and hard to use, and they would set
   things wrong and forget what they changed and how to reset it. It would
   not be a better radio, it would be a worse radio. One of the decisions
   out of the thousands that Wayne had to make was to choose a reasonable
   set of configurable parameters. Everybody might not agree with the set
   that he chose, but then everybody isn't happy with the size of the K3,
   or the available options, etc.
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[dj7mgq]

Hi,

A couple short questions:

1) Does the K3 have a CE marking (yet)?

2) What is the soft situation like for updating the K3 with computers
which do not run windows, e.g. MAC-OS X, Linux etc. I seem to remember
that the updater was written in C#. Have you tried to port the software
using Mono?

vy 73 de toby
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[Julian, G4ILO]

It looks to me as if something like a "system restore" function would
be handy, so you could set things back to the last state you had if
you decide you have completely messed things up by tweaking.

The other suggestion I was going to make was that couldn't some of the
more esoteric settings be adjustable only via a software application
writing to memory registers, to avoid adding extra menu options?

I agree with Wayne's initial decision. When I read the first posts
making a big deal of this my thoughts were that some people just can't
stop finding things to complain about. Perhaps those folks do have a
real need for this, but what it shows is that the K3 is going to be
used by an extremely wide range of operators, and what meets the
demands of some may frighten off others who find too many baffling
menu options.
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 10/12/07, Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Can the values of all these parameters be uploaded and downloaded from
> the control port?  If so, someone (I wish I could) needs to write a
> program to do those functions and display them all with the
> differences from defaults marked.
>
> 73, doug
>
>    Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:48:36 -0700
>    From: Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>
>
>    There are literally hundreds of parameters in a radio like the K3 that
>    could be made adjustable. Some of them are extremely useful because they
>    allow you to customize the rig for your personal preferences (like the
>    AGC slope) and others because they are related to integration with other
>    station equipment or your environment (like the high and low gain
>    settings for the mic and speaker/phones amplifiers).
>
>    If everything that could be adjustable was, you'd have a huge menu,
>    people would find it confusing and hard to use, and they would set
>    things wrong and forget what they changed and how to reset it. It would
>    not be a better radio, it would be a worse radio. One of the decisions
>    out of the thousands that Wayne had to make was to choose a reasonable
>    set of configurable parameters. Everybody might not agree with the set
>    that he chose, but then everybody isn't happy with the size of the K3,
>    or the available options, etc.
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>

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[Julian, G4ILO]

Supplementary question: If the answer to 1 is No, what will be the
impact of this on those of us from EU who have ordered kits, for which
I understand CE marking is not required (not that anyone in the UK
seems to bother about CE marking even for built stuff - see earlier
thread.) Will products be shipped to EU in the same order that orders
were placed, or will there be an extra delay in shipping?

--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 10/12/07, Toby Deinhardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 1) Does the K3 have a CE marking (yet)?
>
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[Alexandr Kobranov]

Maybe some parts of user settings (like discussed AGC "deep params")
should be "password protected".
For obtaining a password special written disclaimer "not to comply
later" will be needed :-)
- joking -

I understand Wayne quite well, on the other side I know there are very
experienced users able to use "open system" with pleasure.

Thanks Elecraft for K3, reading Operational Manual with "standing
ovation" :-)

GL, 73!
Lexa, ok1dst

Julian G4ILO napsal(a):

> It looks to me as if something like a "system restore" function would
> be handy, so you could set things back to the last state you had if
> you decide you have completely messed things up by tweaking.
>
> The other suggestion I was going to make was that couldn't some of the
> more esoteric settings be adjustable only via a software application
> writing to memory registers, to avoid adding extra menu options?
>
> I agree with Wayne's initial decision. When I read the first posts
> making a big deal of this my thoughts were that some people just can't
> stop finding things to complain about. Perhaps those folks do have a
> real need for this, but what it shows is that the K3 is going to be
> used by an extremely wide range of operators, and what meets the
> demands of some may frighten off others who find too many baffling
> menu options.

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[David Pratt-2]

In a recent message, Julian G4ILO <[hidden email]> wrote ...
>Will products be shipped to EU in the same order that orders
>were placed, or will there be an extra delay in shipping?

One of my concerns, Julian, is the possible delays caused by Elecraft
customising each K3 for its destination country.

For example, in the UK our 40 metre band is 7000-7200kHz and NoV permit
holders for 60 metres have seven minibands of which only three are
common with the USA. We can also use narrow modes on 60 metres.

I should like to know whether these differences will have any impact on
the despatch of the K3s to countries outside the USA.

73
--
David G4DMP
Leeds, England, UK
------


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[Julian, G4ILO]

I agree. I made the point, several months ago, that kit versions at
least should not have the transmit capabilities restricted to the
bands permitted in the destination country. There is nothing to stop
anyone constructing a transmitter that can transmit on any frequency,
therefore it is illogical to restrict a kit simply because the design
has the capability to do so.

Such restrictions interfere with the ability of operators who wish to
take their radios abroad to operate in countries where different
limits apply. They also restrict the ability to use radios to generate
low levels of RF on other frequencies for test purposes, e.g. as a
stable signal generator.

Of course, where countries impose import restrictions on built
equipment that require such restrictions there is nothing that can be
done about it. But why enforce limitations where they are not
required? Back when I was first licensed, analogue VFOs were not able
to be strictly confined within the licensed band, and operators were
expected to use a crystal calibrator to ensure that they stayed within
the band limits. It seems like another area where the "nanny state"
has gone too far.

--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 10/12/07, David Pratt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One of my concerns, Julian, is the possible delays caused by Elecraft
> customising each K3 for its destination country.
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[dj7mgq]

> For example, in the UK our 40 metre band is 7000-7200kHz and NoV permit
> holders for 60 metres have seven minibands of which only three are
> common with the USA. We can also use narrow modes on 60 metres.

One would hope that such restriction would only be applied to K3s going to
countries which *require* such restrictions. I wonder about DXpeditions to such
countries. How Elecraft plan on handling this?

I can well understand Elecraft's desire to block the CB/Freeband frequency
range. BTW are they actually required to do this in the States?

Hopefully the restrictions do not apply to the transverter interface, for
greater flexibility in the use of transverter IFs. I know I've mentioned this
before, I personally would like to see possible transverter IFs between the 10m
and 6m bands.

vy 73 de toby
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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

 
I have modified most of my past radios to be general coverage transmit
so they could be used as a signal generator.
The only other signal generators I have are those $20.00 ham fest
specials!

I don't suppose the K3 is like the others where you clip a diode or two....

It would also be nice if you could transmit on the CB frequencies at
4 watts.
On the east coast cb is a wasteland, but out west its very nice and useful,
as I learned on my way down to New Orleans after Katrina...

Brett
N2DTS

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian G4ILO
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:17 AM
> To: elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] CE Marking, Update Software
>
> I agree. I made the point, several months ago, that kit versions at
> least should not have the transmit capabilities restricted to the
> bands permitted in the destination country. There is nothing to stop
> anyone constructing a transmitter that can transmit on any frequency,
> therefore it is illogical to restrict a kit simply because the design
> has the capability to do so.
>
> Such restrictions interfere with the ability of operators who wish to
> take their radios abroad to operate in countries where different
> limits apply. They also restrict the ability to use radios to generate
> low levels of RF on other frequencies for test purposes, e.g. as a
> stable signal generator.
>
> Of course, where countries impose import restrictions on built
> equipment that require such restrictions there is nothing that can be
> done about it. But why enforce limitations where they are not
> required? Back when I was first licensed, analogue VFOs were not able
> to be strictly confined within the licensed band, and operators were
> expected to use a crystal calibrator to ensure that they stayed within
> the band limits. It seems like another area where the "nanny state"
> has gone too far.
>
> --
> Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
>
>
> On 10/12/07, David Pratt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > One of my concerns, Julian, is the possible delays caused
> by Elecraft
> > customising each K3 for its destination country.
> _______________________________________________
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>

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[Vic K2VCO]

Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone] wrote:
> Can the values of all these parameters be uploaded and downloaded from
> the control port?  If so, someone (I wish I could) needs to write a
> program to do those functions and display them all with the
> differences from defaults marked.

The firmware loader (the program that you will use to download updates
from Elecraft) is supposed to get a feature that will enable you to save
and restore the configuration. Someone could write a program that would
look at the backup.

The K3 also has a nice feature in the menus: if you push the DISP button
while looking at a menu entry, you get a little help message scrolling
through the VFO B display which tells you what the menu entry does and
what the default is.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Darwin, Keith]

How many adjustable params are there?  How many levels in the menu?  I'm
thinking there are probably quite a few.  If it were me, I'd rather
tweak my K3 by running a PC program where I can see many at once, rather
than surfing the K3 menu system.

So back to the question.  How many params are there and can all of them
be read/set through the com port?  Reading a bunch of settings, saving
them in XML, showing them on the screen, letting the user change them,
writing them back to the radio - that's pretty easy stuff to write.

I'm not volunteering ... Yet.

- Keith N1AS -
- K2 5411.ssb.100 -
- K3 Wave 3 -

-----Original Message-----
The K3 also has a nice feature in the menus: if you push the DISP button
while looking at a menu entry, you get a little help message scrolling
through the VFO B display which tells you what the menu entry does and
what the default is.
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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

This will be in Ham Radio Deluxe in about three to four weeks from now,
trust me.

Simon 'Another Guiness please' HB9DRV on holiday

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>


How many adjustable params are there?  How many levels in the menu?  I'm
thinking there are probably quite a few.  If it were me, I'd rather
tweak my K3 by running a PC program where I can see many at once, rather
than surfing the K3 menu system.

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[Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone]]

The problem with scrolling through the menus is that you have to know
to look at that parameter.  If something gets changed, and you were
unaware of it (it happens), being able to see at a glance which
parameters were not at the defaults would be most useful.

In particular, I'm thinking of the K2 parameter that changed the
source of the keying sidetone.  I've seen it changed by accident three
times (not by me).   After the first time, I made a note in my
mini-manual.  Note that I've been on several DXpeditions with LOTS of
K2's, and some ops who weren't familiar with them.

73, doug

   Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:55:23 -0700
   From: Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>

   Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone] wrote:
   > Can the values of all these parameters be uploaded and downloaded from
   > the control port?  If so, someone (I wish I could) needs to write a
   > program to do those functions and display them all with the
   > differences from defaults marked.

   The firmware loader (the program that you will use to download updates
   from Elecraft) is supposed to get a feature that will enable you to save
   and restore the configuration. Someone could write a program that would
   look at the backup.

   The K3 also has a nice feature in the menus: if you push the DISP button
   while looking at a menu entry, you get a little help message scrolling
   through the VFO B display which tells you what the menu entry does and
   what the default is.
   --
   73,
   Vic, K2VCO
   Fresno CA
   http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Greg - AB7R]

There are only two menu levels; main and config.  Not sure off the top of my head how many items
there are, but you can look at the manual online to see.

I "think" Simon Brown plans something similar to what you want with HRD.  

-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065
K3#0009

On Fri Oct 12 11:13 , "Darwin, Keith"  sent:

>How many adjustable params are there?  How many levels in the menu?  I'm
>thinking there are probably quite a few.  If it were me, I'd rather
>tweak my K3 by running a PC program where I can see many at once, rather
>than surfing the K3 menu system.
>
>So back to the question.  How many params are there and can all of them
>be read/set through the com port?  Reading a bunch of settings, saving
>them in XML, showing them on the screen, letting the user change them,
>writing them back to the radio - that's pretty easy stuff to write.
>
>I'm not volunteering ... Yet.
>
>- Keith N1AS -
>- K2 5411.ssb.100 -
>- K3 Wave 3 -
>
>-----Original Message-----
>The K3 also has a nice feature in the menus: if you push the DISP button
>while looking at a menu entry, you get a little help message scrolling
>through the VFO B display which tells you what the menu entry does and
>what the default is.
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>
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[Vic K2VCO]

Darwin, Keith wrote:
> How many adjustable params are there?  How many levels in the menu?  I'm
> thinking there are probably quite a few.  If it were me, I'd rather
> tweak my K3 by running a PC program where I can see many at once, rather
> than surfing the K3 menu system.

Look in the back of the manual! They are all there.

It's actually pretty easy to navigate, only one level (but with a Tech
Mode that you can turn on or off to see the stuff that you would only
use for calibration, etc.).
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

I'm planning to write a web-based editor, so the data can be read and
converted to text by a process, and then the UI can be done in a browser.
Whole rig control should easily be possible this way, and clever folks
could even do a fancy Flash version, still using the same web-based
backend.

73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU
> There are only two menu levels; main and config.  Not sure off the top of
> my head how many items
> there are, but you can look at the manual online to see.
>
> I "think" Simon Brown plans something similar to what you want with HRD.

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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Julian G4ILO wrote:
> bands permitted in the destination country. There is nothing to stop
> anyone constructing a transmitter that can transmit on any frequency,
> therefore it is illogical to restrict a kit simply because the design
> has the capability to do so.

But, on my reading of admittedly confusing wording [A], that is what the
UK amateur radio licence does do so for use by Foundation licensees.  It
doesn't, in itself, restrict possession [B], or construction.

Whilst constructing a transceiver probably isn't illegal for an
unlicensed user, there are many things that require relatively limited
technology (firearms, drugs) that are illegal even to produce without a
licence, that may have very limited issue.

>
> Such restrictions interfere with the ability of operators who wish to
> take their radios abroad to operate in countries where different

Only full licence holders can do this without getting an independent
licence from the foreign country.

> limits apply. They also restrict the ability to use radios to generate
> low levels of RF on other frequencies for test purposes, e.g. as a
> stable signal generator.
>
> Of course, where countries impose import restrictions on built
> equipment that require such restrictions there is nothing that can be
> done about it. But why enforce limitations where they are not

Whilst one would need to consult a lawyer to be sure of the actual legal
position, which may well have a loop hole, I don't think the amateur
radio kit exemption to the CE marking rule was ever intended to cover
the K3 case.  It was intended to cover the case where actual compliance
is, to a significant extent, dependent on the builder.  One of the K3
kit's selling points is that this is not the case.  I think it also
exists because the self training element of amateur radio is considered
desirable, and learning the ability to create something compliant from
parts which are not intrinsically compliant is part of that self
training.  Being able to assemble an Ikea book case doesn't really make
you a trainee cabinet maker.

If there is a loop hole, it is better that Elecraft not exploit it
because exploited loopholes generally get closed in the next round of
legislation after the legislators become aware of them.

> required? Back when I was first licensed, analogue VFOs were not able
> to be strictly confined within the licensed band, and operators were
> expected to use a crystal calibrator to ensure that they stayed within

Back when you were first licensed, there was no Foundation licence.

[A] The current licence restricts kits constructed by Foundation users
to those which "satisfy" the interface definition for amateur radio
equipment for CE marking purposes.  As that definition is just a
schedule of frequencies, etc., like that in the back of the licence, not
a statement of requirements, one has to try and work out what the,
presumably junior, drafter actually intended.

Especially if one considers earlier versions of the licence, which don't
rely on references to external documents, I believe that the intent is
that the only allowed kits for that class of licence are those which are
designed to be incapable of operating outside the parameters in the
interface definition.

The 2003 version of the Foundation Licence
<http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/br68f/br68f.htm>uses
the following wording, which clearly indicates the kit must be designed
for amateur bands only use:

  4(1) The Licensee shall only use transmitting equipment conforming
       to EC standards *or commercially available kits transmitting
       inside amateur bands only*.

(I believe there is a legal principle that every word counts, so the
"inside amateur bands only" must refer to the kits, not the operation,
as that restriction is imposed on operation elsewhere in the licence
(2(1)a).)

I believe the "satisfy IR 2028" part of the current licence is an
attempt by someone at a more formal definition of the amateur bands only
requirement.

[B] I think the Wireless Telegraphy Act may restrict possession with
intent to use, but I doubt that many cases are brought - if they are it
is probably more likely for radar detectors, or when some other
equipment was proven to be used illegally.  (See
<http://www.legislation.gov.uk/acts/en2003/03en21-h.htm> for an indirect
reference.)  One presumes that the intent being to do so only after
upgrading the licence would be a valid defence.

I am not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice.


--
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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