Re: K3 S Meter
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A couple of years ago there was some correspondence on the reflector about
whether an S unit is 6db or 4 db and there appears to be historical precedent for both but I have looked at the archive and can't find where it rested as far as the K3 is concerned. It occurred to me while recently re-calibrating my S meter with the XG2 that if, in accordance with the manual, you set S9 to be 50 microvolts and adopt 6 db per S unit the reading for 1 microvolt should be between S3 and S4 (S3 being 0.78 microvolts and S4 1.56 microvolts by my calculations). For practical purposes S3 is probably close enough rather than "about S2 or 3" as shown in the manual. Or is it more complicated than that? My arithmetic is not up working out how many S units one microvolt would be at 4db per S unit but I suspect it would be further away from S2 or 3. Anyone care to comment? 73 to all Geoff G3UCK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I believe 6 dB is the "correct" definition, but most S-meters (K3 and Flex 5k excluded) are very non-linear at low S-meter readings. IMHO the following is an accurate summary of what readings should be: http://www.n6rk.com/S_unit_definitions.doc I would adjust the K3 for the XG2's 1 uV output to solidly display S3 (i.e. no flicker of S2-3). That would only be 2.16 dB off (20 log .78/1), which is probably "close enough". 73, Bill |
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I calibrated the S-meter to 5 dB per S-unit because then the divisions represent 5 dB both above and below S-9. This is easy to remember and it also seemed to allow quite good linearity all along the scale. As has been pointed out, there is no standard so a choice of 5 dB/unit is as valid as any other.
Al W6LX ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hmm, have you checked the calibration above S9? If you compress the scale below S9 to 5dB per S-unit, the scale above S9 is likely to be compressed also, to something like 8.5dB per 10dB division.
AB2TC - Knut
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In reply to this post by Geoffrey Downs-2
Geoff said>For practical purposes S3 is probably close enough rather than
"about S2 or 3" as shown in the manual. Or is it more complicated than that? Geoff, lets do the math... S-9 is 50 uV at the antenna terminals by convention 1 uV is equal to 20 * log (1/50) = -33.98 dB below S-9 Say we define 6 dB per S-unit; let's not start a conventions war please. -33.98 dB divided by 6 dB/S-unit = -5.66 S-units from the S-9 50 uV signal reference. 9 S-units - 5.66 S-units = 3.34 S-units for a 1 uV signal using 6 dB per S-unit If we do the same math for 5 dB per S-unit we get: -33.98/5 = -6.8 S-units lower than S-9 or 1 uV = 2.2 S-units So it all depends on what convention you want to use. Selecting S-2 or S-3 gets you in the ball park. I am not positive but I think region 1 has a standard of 5 dB per S-unit; we don't have a standard here. Mike Scott - AE6WA Tarzana, CA (DM04 / near LA) NAQCC 3535 K3-100 #508 / KX1 #1311 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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No standards. There is no international body in charge of the definition of
an S-unit. Just history. Somewhere I have a .jpg file from an ebay posting of a lovely pristine 30's receiver with an S meter that showed S units on top side of scale, and dB's on the bottom side. 6 db per unit. The very simple origin of that was that moving up an S unit was doubling the signal voltage. Given circuits back then, the bottom of the scale was the point at which AGC intercept occurred. The "about" portion of the S3 in the K3 doc comes from not having strictly calibrated RF gain until just a few beta firmware releases ago. After the calibration, my K3's S3 light kicks on at input of -109 dBm, and S4 kicks on at -103. 1 uv exceeds -109 but falls short of -103, thus only showing up to the S3 light. If one is thinking that S3 *IS* -109, then 106 or 105 or so is "about" S3. If one is thinking that S3 is a range, when the S3 lamp is on then it's S3 (exceeds -109 but not -103 dBm), then by definition S3 is fuzzy. Use of the word "about" is a lot more straightforward for doc than what I just said. Another example of when less is more. 73, Guy. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Mike Scott <[hidden email]> wrote: > Geoff said>For practical purposes S3 is probably close enough rather than > "about S2 or 3" as shown in the manual. Or is it more complicated than > that? > > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Dears
I've seen on the manual S9 /50 microvolts is adjusted with Preamp ON . As a new Elecrafter I need some explanations, because with my previous rigs, I use to calibrate S9 without the preamp. Thanks Philippe A65BI K3 #3616 >>> Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> 17-11-2009 22:25 >>> Geoffrey Downs-2 wrote: > > A couple of years ago there was some correspondence on the reflector about > whether an S unit is 6db or 4 db and there appears to be historical > precedent for both but I have looked at the archive and can't find where > it > rested as far as the K3 is concerned. It occurred to me while recently > re-calibrating my S meter with the XG2 that if, in accordance with the > manual, you set S9 to be 50 microvolts and adopt 6 db per S unit the > reading > for 1 microvolt should be between S3 and S4 (S3 being 0.78 microvolts and > S4 > 1.56 microvolts by my calculations). For practical purposes S3 is probably > close enough rather than "about S2 or 3" as shown in the manual. Or is it > more complicated than that? My arithmetic is not up working out how many S > units one microvolt would be at 4db per S unit but I suspect it would be > further away from S2 or 3. Anyone care to comment? > I believe 6 dB is the "correct" definition, but most S-meters (K3 and Flex 5k excluded) are very non-linear at low S-meter readings. IMHO the following is an accurate summary of what readings should be: http://www.n6rk.com/S_unit_definitions.doc I would adjust the K3 for the XG2's 1 uV output to solidly display S3 (i.e. no flicker of S2-3). That would only be 2.16 dB off (20 log .78/1), which is probably "close enough". 73, Bill -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Re-K3-S-Meter-tp4019422p4020331.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Philippe Trottet [via Elecraft] <[hidden email]> wrote: Dears Bon jour Phillipe, The simple answer is "Always follow the manufacturer's directions". A more complex one is that the K3, being a DSP rig, compensates internally in firmware for the fact that PREamp is ON during the calibration procedure. I also recommend using CONFIG: SMTR MD - ABS. This will place the K3's S-meter in ABSolute mode, so that the S-meter always reads the signal being applied to the input terminals correctly, independently of whether PRE or ATT are selected internally. This is also different than most rigs but, if you think about it, it is better since the S-meter always read the true signal level at the input terminal, before any gain or attenuation is applied inside. 73, Bill W4ZV |
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Dear Bill,
Thanks a lot for the clear explanation and fully right to follow the manufacturers direction but I was ? about it considering my "jurassic" habits. I will use the indicated config as you mentioned as I'm still in the K3 pre-school ! New rigs, new technologies....Ham radio is great to stay younger ! Thanks to Elecraft ! Bst 73's Philippe A65BI / F5LTB (and ex 9Q1TB & many others...) Philippe TROTTET Head of Field Telecom Unit - DUBAI United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees International Humanitarian City Office Building Nº3 - Room 2, 1st Floor Doha Street PO BOX: 506013 DUBAI - U.A.E. HQ Ext: 7120 Vsat: xx 41 22 7120 External: +971 4 3601753 +41 22 739 7120 Mobile: +971 504531756 Website: www.unhcr.org >>> Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> 18-11-2009 14:32 >>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Philippe Trottet [via Elecraft] < [hidden email]<ml-node%[hidden email]> > wrote: > Dears > I've seen on the manual S9 /50 microvolts is adjusted with Preamp ON . > As a new Elecrafter I need some explanations, because with my previous > rigs, I use to calibrate S9 without the preamp. > Thanks > Philippe A65BI > K3 #3616 > Bon jour Phillipe, The simple answer is "Always follow the manufacturer's directions". A more complex one is that the K3, being a DSP rig, compensates internally in firmware for the fact that PREamp is ON during the calibration procedure. I also recommend using CONFIG: SMTR MD - ABS. This will place the K3's S-meter in ABSolute mode, so that the S-meter always reads the signal being applied to the input terminals correctly, independently of whether PRE or ATT are selected internally. This is also different than most rigs but, if you think about it, it is better since the S-meter always read the true signal level at the input terminal, before any gain or attenuation is applied inside. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Re-K3-S-Meter-tp4019422p4024549.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Bill,
If the K3 S-meter is calibrated with the preamp ON, and then ABS mode is set on, the S-meter response for a 50 uV input will be S-7. If one is going to use S-meter ABS, then it is best to calibrate the S-meter for S-9with the preamp off. Yes, I know what "the manufacturer's instructions" say, but I know how my K3 responds, and I also recall Lyle Johnson's response to this exact situation in his posting of November 15, 2009 in which he said the S-meter must be calibrated for the way you will use it. He in fact calibrates his with the PREAMP and ATTN both OFF and uses the S-meter in ABS mode (just as I do). When calibrated that way, it will not be correct in NORMAL mode if the preamp is ON. In other words, the S-meter will respond correctly only under the conditions for which you calibrated it. You get to decide what your normal operating situation will be - S-meter normal or absolute, preamp on or off and attenuator on or off. I prefer to use S-meter absolute so S-9 indicates 50 uV at the antenna input regardless of whether the preamp or attenuator is on or off. Take your pick. Yes, I believe the manual could be more explicit. 73, Don W3FPR Bill W4ZV wrote: > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Philippe Trottet [via Elecraft] < > [hidden email]<ml-node%[hidden email]> > >> wrote: >> > > >> Dears >> I've seen on the manual S9 /50 microvolts is adjusted with Preamp ON . >> As a new Elecrafter I need some explanations, because with my previous >> rigs, I use to calibrate S9 without the preamp. >> Thanks >> Philippe A65BI >> K3 #3616 >> >> > > Bon jour Phillipe, > > The simple answer is "Always follow the manufacturer's directions". A more > complex one is that the K3, being a DSP rig, compensates internally in > firmware for the fact that PREamp is ON during the calibration procedure. > > I also recommend using CONFIG: SMTR MD - ABS. This will place the K3's > S-meter in ABSolute mode, so that the S-meter always reads the signal being > applied to the input terminals correctly, independently of whether PRE or > ATT are selected internally. This is also different than most rigs but, if > you think about it, it is better since the S-meter always read the true > signal level at the input terminal, before any gain or attenuation is > applied inside. > > 73, Bill W4ZV > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/17/09 02:40:00 > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Correction - Lyle's post was November 5.
73, Don W3FPR Don Wilhelm wrote: > Bill, > > If the K3 S-meter is calibrated with the preamp ON, and then ABS mode > is set on, the S-meter response for a 50 uV input will be S-7. > If one is going to use S-meter ABS, then it is best to calibrate the > S-meter for S-9with the preamp off. > > Yes, I know what "the manufacturer's instructions" say, but I know how > my K3 responds, and I also recall Lyle Johnson's response to this exact > situation in his posting of November 15, 2009 in which he said the > S-meter must be calibrated for the way you will use it. He in fact > calibrates his with the PREAMP and ATTN both OFF and uses the S-meter in > ABS mode (just as I do). When calibrated that way, it will not be > correct in NORMAL mode if the preamp is ON. > > In other words, the S-meter will respond correctly only under the > conditions for which you calibrated it. You get to decide what your > normal operating situation will be - S-meter normal or absolute, preamp > on or off and attenuator on or off. I prefer to use S-meter absolute so > S-9 indicates 50 uV at the antenna input regardless of whether the > preamp or attenuator is on or off. Take your pick. > > Yes, I believe the manual could be more explicit. > 73, > Don W3FPR > > Bill W4ZV wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Philippe Trottet [via Elecraft] < >> [hidden email]<ml-node%[hidden email]> >> >> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >> >> >>> Dears >>> I've seen on the manual S9 /50 microvolts is adjusted with Preamp ON . >>> As a new Elecrafter I need some explanations, because with my previous >>> rigs, I use to calibrate S9 without the preamp. >>> Thanks >>> Philippe A65BI >>> K3 #3616 >>> >>> >>> >> Bon jour Phillipe, >> >> The simple answer is "Always follow the manufacturer's directions". A more >> complex one is that the K3, being a DSP rig, compensates internally in >> firmware for the fact that PREamp is ON during the calibration procedure. >> >> I also recommend using CONFIG: SMTR MD - ABS. This will place the K3's >> S-meter in ABSolute mode, so that the S-meter always reads the signal being >> applied to the input terminals correctly, independently of whether PRE or >> ATT are selected internally. This is also different than most rigs but, if >> you think about it, it is better since the S-meter always read the true >> signal level at the input terminal, before any gain or attenuation is >> applied inside. >> >> 73, Bill W4ZV >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/17/09 02:40:00 >> >> >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.707 / Virus Database: 270.14.69/2508 - Release Date: 11/17/09 02:40:00 > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
This is because you are selecting ABS **AFTER** meter calibration. CONFIG: SMTR MD - ABS should be set **PRIOR** to calibration if you plan to use it. If set prior to the S-meter calibration, there is no change in my S9 reading for 50uV input whether PRE is ON, ATT is ON, BOTH are ON or BOTH are OFF. This is exactly as expected because the firmware is compensating for all possible combinations. The meter always indicates the correct S-meter reading based on the signal applied to the input terminals, independent of any internal gain or attenuation. 73, Bill |
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In reply to this post by Philippe Trottet
Hi Philippe,
I think that instruction is in error. I adjusted mine with both the preamp and the attenuator OFF. Makes more sense that way. Turn CONFIG: SMTR MODE to nor. Turn preamp and attenuator OFF, and then adjust your S meter. Now if you decide to turn SMTR MODE to ABS, you'll find that it is already adjusted correctly and does not require re-adjustment. Evidently, the current firmware has the ABS mode track the nor mode with both preamp and atteunator off. Perhaps there was a change in the firmware at some point in time that did not get reflected in the Operators Manual. 73, Oliver Johns W6ODJ On 17 Nov 2009, at 21:08, Philippe Trottet wrote: > Dears > I've seen on the manual S9 /50 microvolts is adjusted with Preamp ON . > As a new Elecrafter I need some explanations, because with my > previous rigs, I use to calibrate S9 without the preamp. > Thanks > Philippe A65BI > K3 #3616 > > > >>>> Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> 17-11-2009 22:25 >>> > > > > Geoffrey Downs-2 wrote: >> >> A couple of years ago there was some correspondence on the >> reflector about >> whether an S unit is 6db or 4 db and there appears to be historical >> precedent for both but I have looked at the archive and can't find >> where >> it >> rested as far as the K3 is concerned. It occurred to me while >> recently >> re-calibrating my S meter with the XG2 that if, in accordance with >> the >> manual, you set S9 to be 50 microvolts and adopt 6 db per S unit the >> reading >> for 1 microvolt should be between S3 and S4 (S3 being 0.78 >> microvolts and >> S4 >> 1.56 microvolts by my calculations). For practical purposes S3 is >> probably >> close enough rather than "about S2 or 3" as shown in the manual. Or >> is it >> more complicated than that? My arithmetic is not up working out how >> many S >> units one microvolt would be at 4db per S unit but I suspect it >> would be >> further away from S2 or 3. Anyone care to comment? >> > > I believe 6 dB is the "correct" definition, but most S-meters (K3 > and Flex > 5k excluded) are very non-linear at low S-meter readings. IMHO the > following is an accurate summary of what readings should be: > > http://www.n6rk.com/S_unit_definitions.doc > > I would adjust the K3 for the XG2's 1 uV output to solidly display > S3 (i.e. > no flicker of S2-3). That would only be 2.16 dB off (20 log .78/1), > which > is probably "close enough". > > 73, Bill > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Re-K3-S-Meter-tp4019422p4020331.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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The manual is correct if you wish to use "nor" mode for the S Meter.
If you wish to use ABS mode, then you need set PRE OFF and ATT OFF before adjusting CONFIG: SMTR SC and CONFIG:SMTR OF. In this case, with no sig gen attached, the lowest S Meter bar may flicker or be on. On both of my K3s (S/N 00002 and S/N 03036) the results are SC 14 and OF 20. If you have a sig gen, and if you haven't already done so, you should run the RF GAIN calibration procedure in K3 Utility *before* performing S Meter calibration. Details for this are in K3 Utility Help. 73, Lyle KK7P ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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> The manual is correct if you wish to use "nor" mode for the S Meter.
> > If you wish to use ABS mode, then you need set PRE OFF and ATT OFF > before adjusting CONFIG: SMTR SC and CONFIG:SMTR OF. To be clearer, if you calibrate according to the manual and *then* select ABS mode, the S meter will read about 10 dB low (approximately 2 S units). If you calibrate with PRE and ATT OFF and *then* select NOR mode, the S meter will only be "accurate" if PRE and ATT are OFF. The DSP firmware corrects for PRE and ATT gains in its calculations in ABS mode; it does not correct for these in NOR mode. 73, Lyle KK7P ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by KK7P
Lyle - is there anything to be gained by running the RF Calibration on 3 bands (like with the XG2 Signal Generator)? rgds, Julian VK4CMV |
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> Lyle - is there anything to be gained by running the RF Calibration on 3
> bands (like with the XG2 Signal Generator)? No. The DSP will use the last set of readings only. I use 20 meters, but it isn't critical. I probably woudln't use 6 meters, since the attenuator and/or preamp transfer characteristic probably is slightly different there. 73, Lyle KK7P ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by KK7P
Just had one of the audio blasts from the past so to speak,
Using the latest 3.63, was changing modes from RTTY to CW and as soon as I pressed the Mode switch and the K3 went into full audio loud screech. Happy it was on speaker and not headphones as it was eardrum busting. Hitting the mode switch again did nothing at first, pressed it again and it stopped. Of course I cannot get it to repeat. Also notice that I have a "dead" spot while tuning the shift control. If the width is set to .05 and tuning the width control to center a signal in the passband, when I tune through .63 the receiver goes almost dead, one click either way, IE: .64 or .62 and all is back to normal. Changed between IIR and FIR and same results at .63 shift. It may be at other widths also just not as noticable. Another one that may have always been there and I never noticed , when engaging the NB control the signals drop noticably, my settings are T1-4 and IF Narrow -4 when I press NB to remove power line noise the signal also drops in strength, as I say that may be "normal" and I have not noticed it before. 73 Merv KH7C ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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