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Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

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Sy Botan

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The transmit relay
activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu item that might
have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook something or is this
normal?

Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
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Scott Ellington

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

I think this is normal, and it's annoying. I don't know of any other transceiver that behaves this way.

73,

Scott K9MA

On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Sy Botan wrote:

Scott Ellington
Madison, Wisconsin
USA

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Jim Rogers, W4ATK

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

It seems to me that switching your amp to standby while doing your adjustments would solve the problem?

73s Jim
On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Scott Ellington wrote:

> I think this is normal, and it's annoying. I don't know of any other transceiver that behaves this way.
>
> 73,
>
> Scott K9MA
>
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Sy Botan wrote:
>
>> Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
>> operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The transmit relay
>> activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
>> receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
>> Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu item that might
>> have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook something or is this
>> normal?
>>
>> Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
>> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Scott Ellington
> Madison, Wisconsin
> USA
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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JIM ROGERS, W4ATK
[hidden email]
http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk
K3/100 P3
K2/10

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Gary Hinson

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Sy Botan

It's 'normal' Sy, unfortunately.

It has been reported before but not yet fixed.

73
Gary ZL2iFB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sy Botan
> Sent: Saturday, 12 March 2011 9:41 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 transmit/amplifier relay
>
> Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
> operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The
> transmit relay
> activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
> receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
> Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu
> item that might
> have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook
> something or is this
> normal?
>
> Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Sy Botan

Why would you need to do this? Adjust it while you actually transmit then
this is not an issue.

> Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
> operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The transmit relay
> activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
> receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
> Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu item that might
> have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook something or is
> this
> normal?
>
> Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Gary Hinson

> It has been reported before but not yet fixed.

Nothing to be fixed. The line is "Key Out" - not amplifier PTT.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/11/2011 4:03 PM, Gary Hinson wrote:

>
> It's 'normal' Sy, unfortunately.
>
> It has been reported before but not yet fixed.
>
> 73
> Gary ZL2iFB
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sy Botan
>> Sent: Saturday, 12 March 2011 9:41 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 transmit/amplifier relay
>>
>> Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
>> operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The
>> transmit relay
>> activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
>> receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
>> Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu
>> item that might
>> have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook
>> something or is this
>> normal?
>>
>> Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Scott Ellington

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Jim Rogers, W4ATK

Not necessarily. The PTT Out line may control more than just the internal amplifier relays. For example, if one uses a separate receiving antenna, there should be a relay which disconnects it from the receiver on transmit. The amplifier output may also be switched by an external relay. There might even be a relay which terminates a shunt fed tower on receive, so it doesn't re-radiate into the rx antennas. So, there could be 3 relays switching. Even if they're quiet ones, I'd rather they didn't in PTT rx mode.

Perhaps there is a situation where it is desirable to do what the K3 does, though it escapes me. In any case, it would be nice to have the option of turning it off in PTT mode.

Scott K9MA

On Mar 11, 2011, at 3:01 PM, JAMES ROGERS wrote:

> It seems to me that switching your amp to standby while doing your adjustments would solve the problem?
>
> 73s Jim
> On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Scott Ellington wrote:
>
>> I think this is normal, and it's annoying. I don't know of any other transceiver that behaves this way.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Scott K9MA
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Sy Botan wrote:
>>
>>> Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
>>> operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The transmit relay
>>> activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
>>> receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
>>> Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu item that might
>>> have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook something or is this
>>> normal?
>>>
>>> Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>
>> Scott Ellington
>> Madison, Wisconsin
>> USA
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> JIM ROGERS, W4ATK
> [hidden email]
> http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk
> K3/100 P3
> K2/10
>
>
>
>

Brendan Minish

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

Turn VOX off ?

On 11/03/2011 21:26, Scott Ellington wrote:

> Not necessarily. The PTT Out line may control more than just the internal amplifier relays. For example, if one uses a separate receiving antenna, there should be a relay which disconnects it from the receiver on transmit. The amplifier output may also be switched by an external relay. There might even be a relay which terminates a shunt fed tower on receive, so it doesn't re-radiate into the rx antennas. So, there could be 3 relays switching. Even if they're quiet ones, I'd rather they didn't in PTT rx mode.
>
> Perhaps there is a situation where it is desirable to do what the K3 does, though it escapes me. In any case, it would be nice to have the option of turning it off in PTT mode.
>
> Scott K9MA
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2011, at 3:01 PM, JAMES ROGERS wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that switching your amp to standby while doing your adjustments would solve the problem?
>>
>> 73s Jim
>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Scott Ellington wrote:
>>
>>> I think this is normal, and it's annoying. I don't know of any other transceiver that behaves this way.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Scott K9MA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Sy Botan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
>>>> operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The transmit relay
>>>> activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
>>>> receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
>>>> Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu item that might
>>>> have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook something or is this
>>>> normal?
>>>>
>>>> Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> Scott Ellington
>>> Madison, Wisconsin
>>> USA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> JIM ROGERS, W4ATK
>> [hidden email]
>> http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk
>> K3/100 P3
>> K2/10
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Scott Ellington
> Madison, Wisconsin
> USA
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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--
73
Brendan EI6IZ
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k.igor

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Sy Botan

I reported this problem awhile ago. I've got no answer... I guess this is just the way it is...

Igor, N1YX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sy Botan" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:40:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 transmit/amplifier relay

Most of my operating is on CW. While staying in the CW receive mode I
operate the paddle to adjust speed and monitor level. The transmit relay
activates and the amplifier relay also is activated. Being in the CW
receive mode there is no RF output but the relay clanking is annoying.
Neither VOX or QSK is selected. I tried to find some menu item that might
have an affect on the relay activation. Did I overlook something or is this
normal?

Tnx de Sy K6PWP # 5223 (one week old)
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wb6rse1

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

Enter TEST mode. Adjust keyer. Leave TEST mode.

73 - Steve WB6RSE
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Scott Ellington

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Scott Ellington

In all fairness, I now see why the K3 behaves as it does, and that it's not a simple firmware mod to fix it. KEY_OUT is derived from 7R, which switches all sorts of stuff between RX and TX mode. If 7R were disabled in PTT RX mode, probably even the sidetone wouldn't work. I don't even see a spare pin on the MCU chip that could be used to gate KEY_OUT.

End of discussion, I think.

73,

Scott K9MA
On Mar 11, 2011, at 3:26 PM, Scott Ellington wrote:

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by wb6rse1

TX TEST will still activate KEYOUT.

This has been discussed at length long before, both on the Firmware
Field Tester reflector and this email reflector. TX TEST is a mode
where no RF is generated, but the entire Transmit Setup in your station
is acivated (for test purposes). If indeed, one is testing the entire
station transmit path, sequence, etc., it is necessary that everything
respond just like during actual transmit, but without the generation of RF.

So that is why KEY OUT is activated when the key is operated. If that
does not suit your station setup, and you operate with a footswitch for
PTT, then it is an easy matter to use a relay (which is activated with
your footswitch) and connect the NO contacts in series the K3 KEY OUT line.

The K3 has several selections for CW - VOX, non-VOX, QSK normal and
Semi-break-in, but as Joe W4TV mentioned, the signal is correct as
labeled - KEY OUT - operate the key and it goes active, no exceptions or
conditions - it is not PTT OUT, or "VOX now active", or anything other
than waht the jack label indicates.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/11/2011 5:09 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Enter TEST mode. Adjust keyer. Leave TEST mode.
>
> 73 - Steve WB6RSE
>
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W5UXH

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Scott Ellington

Actually there is a situation where it is very desirable for me. But I understand why most people would prefer to not have this happen. I use this "feature" for QSK testing, including external QSK switches, for the amp. It is very useful because all timing is exactly the same as if RF were being generated but I can test on top of band activity to hear exactly how well the QRQ QSK is performing without interfering with signals I am on top of.

Chuck, W5UXH

Scott Ellington wrote

Perhaps there is a situation where it is desirable to do what the K3 does, though it escapes me. In any case, it would be nice to have the option of turning it off in PTT mode.

Scott K9MA

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

Chuck,

Your testing is *exactly* what TX TEST is supposed to accomplish.
Those with VHF sequencers have an even more complex set of conditions
that can be tested and affirmed "good" or "bad" with TX TEST.

The fact that RF is not generated makes it also useful for things like
setting your keying speed without bothering other hams, but that is a
secondary consideration - it just "works", but of course, the relays
will click in the process unless other measures are taken.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/11/2011 9:28 PM, W5UXH wrote:
> Actually there is a situation where it is very desirable for me. But I
> understand why most people would prefer to not have this happen. I use this
> "feature" for QSK testing, including external QSK switches, for the amp. It
> is very useful because all timing is exactly the same as if RF were being
> generated but I can test on top of band activity to hear exactly how well
> the QRQ QSK is performing without interfering with signals I am on top of.
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
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k6dgw

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

On 3/11/2011 6:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> Your testing is *exactly* what TX TEST is supposed to accomplish.
> Those with VHF sequencers have an even more complex set of conditions
> that can be tested and affirmed "good" or "bad" with TX TEST.

This thread reminds me of the "need for a fix" I was sure I had come up
with, and posted ... "Make the RIT tuning rate selectable." With three
digits to the right of the decimal point, it took a lot of rotations to
move the RIT very much.

After some more operation, and a very short email from Wayne, I
discovered that, if I went to two display digits, the RIT rate was just
about right. Now, when I'm in RUN mode in a contest, I set the display
to 2 digits, and make sure RIT is on. Works great, no "fix" needed. I
know I could have known this had I read the manual carefully ... like
that's really going to happen :-)

This has happened to me several times since ... something I think I
really want to be able to do in a certain way turns out to be available
already ... just not exactly like I had envisioned it. With today's
radios, there are nearly a countably infinite number of ways to employ
them. I'm trying hard to be flexible and try a few of them out.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
- www.cqp.org
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k.igor

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don,
I think the discussion here is over. We all know what label says next to the
connector, or in which cases the current behavior is needed etc., etc..
Apparently, there are two opposite opinions on the subject.
One group that do not wish to key their amplifier in this situation. I
almost jump in my chair every time it happens - usually when I accidentally
touch my paddles - there is fear in me that I transmit when I don't want to
or I can ruin expensive amplifier or radio.
Second group either OK with current behavior or do not care about this
feature because they don't use amplifier or they use QSK exclusively.
The question is - Can/will Elecraft make this feature selectable so user
can chose their preferred behavior? This is simple question really. So far,
no answer was offered.
Perhaps one of the ACC connector pins could be configured to be "PTT Out" to
control amplifier. I would not want another relay dangling somewhere behind
my amplifier. Reminds me tubes days, I thought all that disappeared in rear
view mirror long time ago.

73,

Igor, N1YX

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 8:51 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 transmit/amplifier relay

TX TEST will still activate KEYOUT.

This has been discussed at length long before, both on the Firmware
Field Tester reflector and this email reflector. TX TEST is a mode
where no RF is generated, but the entire Transmit Setup in your station
is acivated (for test purposes). If indeed, one is testing the entire
station transmit path, sequence, etc., it is necessary that everything
respond just like during actual transmit, but without the generation of RF.

So that is why KEY OUT is activated when the key is operated. If that
does not suit your station setup, and you operate with a footswitch for
PTT, then it is an easy matter to use a relay (which is activated with
your footswitch) and connect the NO contacts in series the K3 KEY OUT line.

The K3 has several selections for CW - VOX, non-VOX, QSK normal and
Semi-break-in, but as Joe W4TV mentioned, the signal is correct as
labeled - KEY OUT - operate the key and it goes active, no exceptions or
conditions - it is not PTT OUT, or "VOX now active", or anything other
than waht the jack label indicates.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/11/2011 5:09 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Enter TEST mode. Adjust keyer. Leave TEST mode.
>
> 73 - Steve WB6RSE
>
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Scott Ellington

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Sy Botan

It may NOT be a good idea to gate the KEY_OUT with the foot switch because of timing issues. If you release the foot switch while transmitting, the amplifier relay, especially a fast QSK relay, could release before the K3 RF output decays, resulting in hot-switching of the relay. KEY_OUT apparently does not have that problem, or there would be lots of fried relays out there, not to mention key clicks. I suppose you could add a delay to the foot-switch release gating, if you really thought it was worth the trouble.

The only way to properly gate KEY_OUT to be inactive in PTT RX mode is to do it internally to the K3. As I said earlier, that is clearly not practical. It's not the way I would have done it, but it's a minor thing. In any design, trade-offs have to be made.

73,

Scott K9MA

****

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:51:00 -0500
Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

.....

>
> So that is why KEY OUT is activated when the key is operated. If that
> does not suit your station setup, and you operate with a footswitch for
> PTT, then it is an easy matter to use a relay (which is activated with
> your footswitch) and connect the NO contacts in series the K3 KEY OUT line.
>
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Ralph Parker

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Sy Botan

>...While staying in the CW receive mode I operate the paddle to adjust
>speed and monitor level.
>The transmit relay activates and the amplifier relay also is activated...

I don't care what justification others come up with - my other radios don't
do this, and I find it extremely annoying. Always have, always will.
Sorry.

Respctfully submitted,
Ralph, VE7XF

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Jim McCook W6YA

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

In reply to this post by Sy Botan

Ralph, VE7XF, took the words right from my own mouth. This situation is
unique, extremely annoying, and I have not been able to get used to this
anomaly after several years. Using my spare FT-1000D is a big relief in
that particular area. I have asked for a solution to this for years,
but to no avail.

73, Jim
W6YA

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Guy, K2AV

Re: K3 transmit/amplifier relay

I am not so sure that this cannot be accomplished in firmware.

And I completely get what this causes if one has a complex pre-K3 setup
switching tower-top preamps, etc., whose primary state-change signal comes
from

Only the CPU knows that VOX is on or off. There is no "VOX lead". "Band
down" and "VOX" share the same physical switch using "tap" and "hold". The
paddle states are interpreted in the CPU, there is no separate physical
keyer circuitry. Follow the /DASH or /DOT leads in the schematic and you
will see it goes straight to the CPU. Also there is no physical monitor
oscillator which is keyed by 7T.

This gives me the firm gut estimate that firmware CAN clean this up.

HOWEVER... And a BIG HOWEVER...

The same gut gestimates that the code that is touched is all over the place,
would require a lot of testing because of everything that is involved, and
therefore it goes on the priority list just like everything else, and
weighted as "extensive". And we want the big E to stay in business, so
other development must go on. Wayne might want to state whether this is on
the list somewhere. Then future queries can be answered: "It's on the
list," and some day a firmware release will fix it.

BEYOND THAT, HOWEVER NUMBER TWO...

If the clanking relay while phantom sending is an issue, isn't the clanking
relay in normal sending also an issue? Don't blame the danging clanging
relay on the K3. Fix the $%&*(@!!@ AMP. I modified all my amps with fast
vacuum relays that are sound isolated by putting them on a blob of RTV. End
of the )()*(^%$##&*))!! clanging. For casual operating, I like to work
without headphones, so the clanging is super-irritating. The diversity is
really pretty good through stereo speakers, even if not quite as "spread" as
using headphones.

Since 99.999% of my operating is regular operation, the danging clanging
(which I hate) is the AMP's problem. Not the K3's. For me that's a deal
killer for some of the Alpha's.

73, Guy.

On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Jim McCook <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ralph, VE7XF, took the words right from my own mouth. This situation is
> unique, extremely annoying, and I have not been able to get used to this
> anomaly after several years. Using my spare FT-1000D is a big relief in
> that particular area. I have asked for a solution to this for years,
> but to no avail.
>
> 73, Jim
> W6YA
>
>
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