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Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

The issue is not that the paddles don't leave the factory fully tested
and operational, but that the stand-offs (E700348) loosen after a period
of time from normal use.

As posted by several of us previously, the fix is simply to place a
small dab of Loctite Blue on the threads of the two flathead screws
(E700277) which secure the stand-offs.

Loctite Blue worked for me. Some prefer Loctite Red. A last resort
would be JB Weld.

Once adjusted to the operator's taste, the KXPD2 is a very nice little
paddle.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

On 7/22/2017 10:30 AM, Wayne Burdick [hidden email] [KX3] wrote:
>
> The paddles are supposed to be fully tested prior to shipping. I’ll
> investigate on Monday.
>
> Thanks,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>

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w4sc-2

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

You may want to reconsider using Loctite Red (or Blue), the highest strengths. If you ever want to disassemble that part of the XDP2, it may take heat and excessive force to loosen.

Loctite Purple is probably more than adequate for the securing of the posts. A tiny dab of Purple on the end of the screw threads worked great for me.

REF; http://henkeladhesivesna.com/blog/the-difference-between-red-blue-green-and-purple-threadlockers/

73 de Ben W4SC

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Mark Goldberg

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

There are many different Loctites of each color. Exactly what has worked
for you? I have settled on Blue Loctite 243 for it's improved temperature
range, better compatibility with Stainless Steel hardware and oil
resistance.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 10:05 AM, w4sc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You may want to reconsider using Loctite Red (or Blue), the highest
> strengths. If you ever want to disassemble that part of the XDP2, it may
> take heat and excessive force to loosen.
>
> Loctite Purple is probably more than adequate for the securing of the
> posts. A tiny dab of Purple on the end of the screw threads worked great
> for me.
>
> REF; http://henkeladhesivesna.com/blog/the-difference-between-
> red-blue-green-and-purple-threadlockers/
>
> 73 de Ben W4SC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

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Josh Fiden

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

There are something like 40 different formulations of Loctite
Threadlocker. It's a great product *if* you select the correct one for
your application. The wrong one can be a disaster.

73,
Josh W6XU

On 7/24/2017 12:48 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Perhaps Loctite has changed the formula

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Tom Francis, W1TEF

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

Kent and Wayne,

I have not had any success with Loc-Tite. This is strictly an
engineering issue - the screws are too short
to produce enough torque to hold the contact posts in place - its as
simple as that. Longer screws help,
but again, the length of the contact posts and small diameter of the
screws that cause the problem.

I've gone through three of these paddles and finally gave up - its a
terrible design and based on others that
have posted here and some friends who have experienced the same
problems, it seems to be an ongoing
issue. You should not have to add Loc-Tite to a set of paddles of this
type. And it's not like Elecraft is not
aware of the problem - I've had it from day one as have others.

Other than that, I love my KX3 and KX2. And I like the KX3 paddles -
those seem to work just fine.

Just one of thsoes "little" annoyances, but it should be addressed
because its little annoyances that create
negative product impressions.

Very best regards,

Tom, W1TEF
Lexington County, SC

On 7/24/2017 11:45 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:

> The issue is not that the paddles don't leave the factory fully tested
> and operational, but that the stand-offs (E700348) loosen after a
> period of time from normal use.
>
> As posted by several of us previously, the fix is simply to place a
> small dab of Loctite Blue on the threads of the two flathead screws
> (E700277) which secure the stand-offs.
>
> Loctite Blue worked for me. Some prefer Loctite Red. A last resort
> would be JB Weld.
>
> Once adjusted to the operator's taste, the KXPD2 is a very nice little
> paddle.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent K9ZTV
>
>
>
> On 7/22/2017 10:30 AM, Wayne Burdick [hidden email] [KX3] wrote:
>>
>> The paddles are supposed to be fully tested prior to shipping. I’ll
>> investigate on Monday.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Mark Goldberg

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

In reply to this post by Mark Goldberg

Loctite 425 appears to be the only one they recommend for metal to plastic.
It is Cyanoacrylate based. It may not be that much different from the plain
old CA glue you used, except it is a pretty Loctite blue!

http://www.na.henkel-adhesives.com/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797887234049

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I avoid Loctite after using it to secure a steel screw and nut holding a
> plastic part. Over the next six months the plastic around the screw
> disintegrated - crumbled. That was several years ago. Perhaps Loctite has
> changed the formula, but I haven't succumbed to making another test.
>
> I found that a small drop of thin (not gel) CA glue (a.k.a "superglue") on
> the threads of a screw works very well, yet the screw can be removed later
> if needed with little effort. The threads do not need to be coated. Just a
> small amount where the screw enters the threaded section, or a small drop
> on
> the end of the screw where it exits are all that is needed.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Goldberg
> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 11:09 AM
> To: w4sc
> Cc: Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue
>
> There are many different Loctites of each color. Exactly what has worked
> for
> you? I have settled on Blue Loctite 243 for it's improved temperature
> range,
> better compatibility with Stainless Steel hardware and oil resistance.
>
> 73,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 10:05 AM, w4sc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > You may want to reconsider using Loctite Red (or Blue), the highest
> > strengths. If you ever want to disassemble that part of the XDP2, it
> > may take heat and excessive force to loosen.
> >
> > Loctite Purple is probably more than adequate for the securing of the
> > posts. A tiny dab of Purple on the end of the screw threads worked
> > great for me.
> >
> > REF; http://henkeladhesivesna.com/blog/the-difference-between-
> > red-blue-green-and-purple-threadlockers/
> >
> > 73 de Ben W4SC
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> > [hidden email]
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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> delivered to [hidden email]
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>

John Oppenheimer

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

This is the response I received from Elecraft support:

On 06/27/2017 01:34 PM, Elecraft Support wrote:
> To your question, yes, we are now using a drop of Locktite Blue (not
> Red) on the threads for the 2 screws that hold the round contacts in
> place.

John KN5L

On 07/24/2017 10:45 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
> The issue is not that the paddles don't leave the factory fully tested
> and operational, but that the stand-offs (E700348) loosen after a period
> of time from normal use.
>
> As posted by several of us previously, the fix is simply to place a
> small dab of Loctite Blue on the threads of the two flathead screws
> (E700277) which secure the stand-offs.
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Tom Francis, W1TEF

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

The point should be that a "drop of LocTite" isn't going to fix the
problem over time.

You should not have to modify a product immediately out of the box
because of a lousy
design.

Best regards,

Tom, W1TEF
Lexington, SC

On 7/24/2017 6:22 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote:

> This is the response I received from Elecraft support:
>
> On 06/27/2017 01:34 PM, Elecraft Support wrote:
>> To your question, yes, we are now using a drop of Locktite Blue (not
>> Red) on the threads for the 2 screws that hold the round contacts in
>> place.
> John KN5L
>
> On 07/24/2017 10:45 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
>> The issue is not that the paddles don't leave the factory fully tested
>> and operational, but that the stand-offs (E700348) loosen after a period
>> of time from normal use.
>>
>> As posted by several of us previously, the fix is simply to place a
>> small dab of Loctite Blue on the threads of the two flathead screws
>> (E700277) which secure the stand-offs.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Dave Belville

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

Hi Tom,

First let me say that I am not trying to argue with you or correct you. I
just want to share what little bit of knowledge I have.

In my many years as a master mechanic in the heavy duty truck industry, I
can tell you without reservation that unless you use physical force
(screwdriver, etc.) and turn the screw, it will not come loose from the
type of use a set of paddles on a KX2 would get and could be considered a
permanent fix. We used Blue Loctite for countless purposes and I never saw
it come loose on a truck which would have put many times more vibration,
stress and possibly heat on the fastener. Now, that being said, you need to
have the fastener clean but in the case of the KX2 paddles, it should not
be an issue. I would not recommend using red Loctite. You may not get the
fastener out even if you want to without destroying something. I know that
from experience.

As far as the design goes, I would not say it is a lousy design. I would
say that they just left a step out. They forgot the blue Loctite. Elecraft
isn't perfect, but they are darn close.

73

Dave KD9VT

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 7:47 AM, Tom Francis, W1TEF <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The point should be that a "drop of LocTite" isn't going to fix the
> problem over time.
>
> You should not have to modify a product immediately out of the box because
> of a lousy
> design.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Tom, W1TEF
> Lexington, SC
>
> On 7/24/2017 6:22 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote:
>
>> This is the response I received from Elecraft support:
>>
>> On 06/27/2017 01:34 PM, Elecraft Support wrote:
>>
>>> To your question, yes, we are now using a drop of Locktite Blue (not
>>> Red) on the threads for the 2 screws that hold the round contacts in
>>> place.
>>>
>> John KN5L
>>
>> On 07/24/2017 10:45 AM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
>>
>>> The issue is not that the paddles don't leave the factory fully tested
>>> and operational, but that the stand-offs (E700348) loosen after a period
>>> of time from normal use.
>>>
>>> As posted by several of us previously, the fix is simply to place a
>>> small dab of Loctite Blue on the threads of the two flathead screws
>>> (E700277) which secure the stand-offs.
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

As I learned from my previous manufacturing experience and knowledge, a
threaded fastener, a.k.a. screw, has a specific torque value which
should be applied to make it secure. The value depends on the screw
design, flat head, binder head, round head, undercut, pan head, etc.
The only way to attain this value is to use a torque calibrated
screwdriver or wrench to secure the fastener. Also, depending on
application, the proper lock washer, internal tooth, external tooth or
split spring should be applied.

Additional measures may be required when the screw is used with
dis-similar materials. Hence one of the Loctite products, again
application specific, may be required.

73

Bob, K4TAX

K3S s/n 10163

On 7/25/2017 8:14 AM, Dave Belville wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> First let me say that I am not trying to argue with you or correct you. I
> just want to share what little bit of knowledge I have.
>
> In my many years as a master mechanic in the heavy duty truck industry, I
> can tell you without reservation that unless you use physical force
> (screwdriver, etc.) and turn the screw, it will not come loose from the
> type of use a set of paddles on a KX2 would get and could be considered a
> permanent fix. We used Blue Loctite for countless purposes and I never saw
> it come loose on a truck which would have put many times more vibration,
> stress and possibly heat on the fastener. Now, that being said, you need to
> have the fastener clean but in the case of the KX2 paddles, it should not
> be an issue. I would not recommend using red Loctite. You may not get the
> fastener out even if you want to without destroying something. I know that
> from experience.
>
> As far as the design goes, I would not say it is a lousy design. I would
> say that they just left a step out. They forgot the blue Loctite. Elecraft
> isn't perfect, but they are darn close.
>
> 73
>
> Dave KD9VT
>
>

Matt Murphy

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

I have had this issue with my KX2 paddle and have two observations:

On my paddle, the screw that is meant to hold the standoff to the plastic
body will actually screw tightly into the plastic body *without* the
standoff. When this happens, additional torque applied with a screwdriver
has no effect on the standoff.

When my paddle got loose I tightened the screw with a screwdriver, but then
later (after it got loose multiple times) I realized that the screw felt
tight because the threads were *gripping the plastic. *The connection with
the standoff was still fairly loose, the torque I put on the screwdriver
was blocked by the tight fit of the screw's threads to the plastic.

The solution I used was to turn the standoff while jogging the screw back
and forth with a screwdriver until I felt the standoff grip against the
other side of the plastic, then continue to jog the assembly while
tightening the screw about another quarter turn, to the point where the
screw was nice and tight against the standoff and *also* tight against the
plastic. This approach has kept the screw and standoff stable without the
need for glue.

I think that if future releases of the paddle were manufactured with a
slightly larger hole in the plastic, then it would be easier to achieve a
tight fit between the screw and the standoff. I'd also be curious if a
small lock-washer on the standoff side might help make the assembly more
immune to vibration.

73,
Matt NQ6N

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's useful to remember that a screw (or bolt) is a spring. When tightened
> it stretches lengthwise. Like any spring, it offers the best "grip" when
> subjected to the right range of pressure.
>
> Way back in my High School days (1950's - before Mercury was a toxic
> substance) I watched a demonstration using a bolt and nut made of frozen
> Mercury. Mercury is not elastic. Liquid Mercury was poured into molds for a
> nut and bolt and hardened with liquid nitrogen. Using gloves, the
> demonstrator assembled the nut and bolt using a large wrench to apply a
> great deal of torque. That done, anyone could loosen it without a wrench by
> just twisting the nut or bolt with minimal finger pressure (inside the
> gloves of course). There was no resistance since Mercury does not stretch.
>
> It's easy to over torque (stretch) small screws. That's why the Elecraft
> kit
> assembly manuals do not recommend using power screwdrivers. The Elecraft
> factory in Watsonville is equipped with special torque-limiting power
> screwdrivers to allow quick assembly with screws not so tight they are
> damaged or broken.
>
> Since a screw is basically an inclined plane that stretches the screw when
> tightened, vibration will allow the screw to turn (slide along the plane of
> the threads), hence the use of lock washers or chemical compounds in such
> environments to stop any movement.
>
> Perhaps the issue with the KX2 paddles is the vibration as the contacts
> collide allowing the screws to turn. Working remotely on the Elecraft
> manuals I've not been directly involved with the issue, so that is pure
> speculation.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
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Mark Goldberg

Re: [KX3] Re: Kx2 paddle issue

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

I found this site:

https://engineerdog.com/2015/01/11/10-tricks-engineers-need-to-know-about-fasteners/

They suggest that studies show lockwashers are ineffective, but then go on
to reference other studies that show they are.

I guess is all comes down to that common answer in engineering: "It
depends". You have to design to your specific conditions, and probably
should do some dynamic testing with fatigue loads as referenced in the
article. Since I do not have testing capabilities, I use both lockwashers
and threadlocker, appropriately chosen for the application using
manufacturer's data sheets and selection guides, and hope for the best.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote: