Re: Keyer weighting
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>... what if Ralph calls CQ with his weight "on the 'heavy' side (52%....)"
>and since I prefer a normal 3 to 1 ratio... With all due respect to Tom (he's been on the air two years longer than I :-) that's exactly my point - 'weight' and 'ratio' are two different things!!! My weight is set to 52%, my ratio is set to 3:1. >Then if someone ask you to change your weight to the 'heavy side', >you could then comply with that persons wishes? I'm going to start using "QCW?" at the beginning of my QSOs - "How would you like me to set my keyer?" >...anything other than the standard 3/1 and you were sending at over 50 wpm, >not too many folks could copy you... That's probably true, but my ratio IS 3:1. I agree that too heavy a weight would be hard to copy at that speed. Ralph, VE7XF ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 8/22/2013 3:17 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> In my experience with commercial (and to a lesser extent Military) CW > operations, one of the most important skills an operator had to have was the > ability to copy a huge variety of fists, speeds, spacing and weighing. Indeed Ron, and believe me, in 56/57, the year I worked coastal marine, the menagerie of fists afloat were exceeded only by the combinations of carrier whine, whine superimposed on the MCW, drift, and chirp. It wasn't uncommon for the chirp to take it from one side of the passband to the other, hence the MCW [which also chirped some]. If the dits were, on average, more or less shorter than the dahs, it was a good day. :-) I know the reasons for all this, and I forgive all of them, but it all did make copy a challenge. And, since people were paying ... a lot ... to have their messages sent *and* received correctly, correct copy was essential. The other coast stations, the Coast Guard, and the few Navy stations on the other hand were impeccable and precise, and thoroughly QRQ. I was relaying a wx summary to NMO once, it was sort of longish and boring, as wx summaries tended to be then. I was loping along at around 23-24 on my J-36 by Lionel, and he broke and said, "QRQ OK" My sending limit on my bug was about 30-32, and he got it all. Really great operators! The good news is that I learned to recognize ships by their sound and ops by their fist before I ever heard their call. :-) The surprising thing to me then and still now is that the ham CW bands were filled with generally stable signals, some mild chirps occasionally, and a few key clicks ... and generally very good fists if the ships were to be the standard. They still are. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Au contraire, Ron . . .
Those of us who work the NTS nightly can identify stations by a single dit. We doit all the time. To the trained ear, with enough repetition, every CW transmitter has a distinct "something" that is a characteristic component of its signal. You'll never see it on a scope, but the human brain has the capability of recording its unique signature. On the Missouri Section Net tonight I had two stations send me adouble-dit (not an "i"), and I instantly recognized each one. Even stations using identical equipmentwith equalsignal strengths can be recognized. Not sure I would use the word "sterile" but I understand your point about fists. If "sterile" the bands be, I for one will take sterility anytime to a Lake Erie swing orto some history buff who collects bugs but hasn't a clue how to adjust them. To the poster who was proud of his ability to copy atrocious code, all I can say is . . . I was equally proud of my ability to sit through my daughter's Suzukilessons when she was 4 years old. But I much prefer listening to her play Shostakovich at age 32. 73, Kent K9ZTV On 8/22/2013 9:45 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > As you no doubt recall, back in the 50's and 60's one could tune across the > Ham CW bands and recognize friends by their fists without ever listening for > a call. I find the CW bands sound rather 'sterile' today. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Kent - You're right about what the human ear/brain can discern.
Some of you may recall seeing the article about Chuck Adams, K7QO, in the Wall St. Journal a number of years ago: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119161604206850468.html?mod=edits Long story, short, Chuck was working on a "book to Morse" program and sent me a CD with War of the Worlds at 100 WPM on it. Something just didn't sound right with the CW, so I emailed Chuck and told him something was wrong with the timing. He analyzed his code and found that he had inserted an extra dit-space between words. At 100 WPM, it was 1.2 msec! Barry W2UP |
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In reply to this post by Ralph Parker
It is very important to distinguish between Key Weighting and Key
Compensation. See pages 15 and 16 here: http://k1el.tripod.com/files/WKUSB_QuickStart.pdf The K3 has Key Weighting. What it (additionally) really needs is Key Compensation. CW Exuberantly, Hank, W6SX ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Ralph Parker
>...I for one will take sterility anytime to a Lake Erie swing...
I considered myself pretty good with a bug back when I started (and probably had a bit of a 'swing' myself), but today the sound of properly sent CW at about 30 wpm is just like music to me. It's all about timing - think of Gould playing Bach! Ralph, VE7XF ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE
On 8/22/2013 8:22 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:
> Au contraire, Ron . . . > > Those of us who work the NTS nightly can identify stations by a single > dit. True. As a teen, I was very active in NTS in the mid-50's. Of course, electronic keyers were just showing up, all HB, and none of us had any problem identifying each other just from the fist and sound. College followed by the military and a family sort of ended all that for me and when email arrived for the masses, I assumed NTS was dead. About 2 years ago Jim, K9JM, told me NTS wasn't dead and sort of badgered me into checking into NCN, the No Cal section net. He was sort of right, while not in the greatest of health, NTS still has a pulse. With one exception NCN is all OT's, several using bugs and one on a straight key, and on Wed when I'm NCS, it's rare I don't know who it is before hearing the call. > To the poster who was proud of his ability to copy atrocious code, all I > can say is . . . I was equally proud of my ability to sit through my > daughter's Suzukilessons when she was 4 years old. But I much prefer > listening to her play Shostakovich at age 32. The poster was me, and I definitely don't want to go back to the old days. I was a little younger then, working ships at sea with 5KW and humongous antennas was cool, and bad signals and fists were just a little speedbump in the "cool." At my current age, I'll take the sound of today's CW bands. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Hank Garretson
Hmmm ... just when I thought I understood everything. :-)
A number of years ago I built a keyer, can't remember if it was the K1EL chip or not and I don't have it anymore. USB hadn't been invented. It suffered from what I decided was a design defect in that it offered 2 dah-dit ratios. 3:1 was all I ever used, I think the other choice was 4:1 and it really sounded bad. I used it with a TS-830S. I also noticed that while the side-tone from the keyer sounded OK, listening off the air seemed to have a "clipped" sound with dits and dahs both shorter than I though was right. That was a need for Key Compensation? I assumed the the -830 keying circuit just wasn't keying up instantly. I now have a USB Winkey. I use it only with N1MM, don't even have a paddle plugged in, I use the K3 keyer with the paddle. CW WGHT=1.10 and CW QRQ is OFF. 1.10 sounded good to me, probably just personal preference. I thought that a WGHT>1.00 caused both the dits and dahs to lengthen slightly reducing the inter-element space so a character still occupied the same time period. I think that's what your reference link is telling me too [it's the same as the User Manual for my USB WinKey] and I think that's what the K3 is doing. Listening to my K3 off the air, I can't discern any shortening of the elements that I did with the -830. Why would I need Key Compensation in my K3? I tried to measure it with the scope ... sort of inconclusive results mainly because I don't know how to work it but if the K3 keying is clipping anything off the beginning of the elements, I sure can't hear it. Am I missing something? <smalldigression>An OT commercial op, when I asked, "Exactly what is 'swing'?", said it was lengthening the dashes on the bug so the dash-dot ratio was greater than 3:1, and that the resulting actual ratio was varied, depending on what he was sending. I've always assumed he was right.</smalldigression> 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org On 8/23/2013 6:51 AM, Hank Garretson wrote: > It is very important to distinguish between Key Weighting and Key > Compensation. > > See pages 15 and 16 here: http://k1el.tripod.com/files/WKUSB_QuickStart.pdf > > The K3 has Key Weighting. What it (additionally) really needs is Key > Compensation. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hi Fred,
I think this was the thread I previously saw on keying compensation for the KX3, including scope traces: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/KX3-External-Key-Timing-Measurements-td7565401.html 73, Matt VK2RQ On 24/08/2013, at 7:26 AM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hmmm ... just when I thought I understood everything. :-) > > A number of years ago I built a keyer, can't remember if it was the K1EL chip or not and I don't have it anymore. USB hadn't been invented. It suffered from what I decided was a design defect in that it offered 2 dah-dit ratios. 3:1 was all I ever used, I think the other choice was 4:1 and it really sounded bad. I used it with a TS-830S. > > I also noticed that while the side-tone from the keyer sounded OK, listening off the air seemed to have a "clipped" sound with dits and dahs both shorter than I though was right. That was a need for Key Compensation? I assumed the the -830 keying circuit just wasn't keying up instantly. > > I now have a USB Winkey. I use it only with N1MM, don't even have a paddle plugged in, I use the K3 keyer with the paddle. CW WGHT=1.10 and CW QRQ is OFF. 1.10 sounded good to me, probably just personal preference. I thought that a WGHT>1.00 caused both the dits and dahs to lengthen slightly reducing the inter-element space so a character still occupied the same time period. I think that's what your reference link is telling me too [it's the same as the User Manual for my USB WinKey] and I think that's what the K3 is doing. > > Listening to my K3 off the air, I can't discern any shortening of the elements that I did with the -830. Why would I need Key Compensation in my K3? I tried to measure it with the scope ... sort of inconclusive results mainly because I don't know how to work it but if the K3 keying is clipping anything off the beginning of the elements, I sure can't hear it. Am I missing something? > > <smalldigression>An OT commercial op, when I asked, "Exactly what is 'swing'?", said it was lengthening the dashes on the bug so the dash-dot ratio was greater than 3:1, and that the resulting actual ratio was varied, depending on what he was sending. I've always assumed he was right.</smalldigression> > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > - Northern California Contest Club > - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 > - www.cqp.org > > On 8/23/2013 6:51 AM, Hank Garretson wrote: >> It is very important to distinguish between Key Weighting and Key >> Compensation. >> >> See pages 15 and 16 here: http://k1el.tripod.com/files/WKUSB_QuickStart.pdf >> >> The K3 has Key Weighting. What it (additionally) really needs is Key >> Compensation. > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Listening to my K3 off the air, I can't discern any shortening of the > elements that I did with the -830. Why would I need Key Compensation in my > K3? I tried to measure it with the scope ... sort of inconclusive results > mainly because I don't know how to work it but if the K3 keying is clipping > anything off the beginning of the elements, I sure can't hear it. Am I > missing something? > Scope tests are indeed inconclusive because of rise and fall times. What is important is not how things may sound to me when I listen, but how things sound to the people who have to copy me. I have run on-the-air tests with accomplished CW operators who are at the top of the game and whom I respect very much. After quite a few iterations, I ended up with CW WGHT 1.10, CW QRQ OFF, WinKey Key Compensation 07. That worked best for them and for me. Please note that Key Compensation is not very important at slower speeds. It's above 30 WPM that Key Compensation is really important. 73, Hank, W6SX ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Ralph Parker
The K2 and K3 have near perfect equal key ON/OFF delays. Therefore, the
K3 and K2 will not normally need external keyer delay compensation. The KX3 (measured with MCU 1.50 / DSP 1.21) has about 8 ms key ON to OFF delay. The delay is for both the internal and external keyers. (Breakin mode, XMIT not enabled) The KX3 weight control can be used to compensate for the internal keyer delay, though is speed dependent and runs out of compensation above about 25 WPM. At 20 WPM with the KX3 Weight set to 1.15, the resulting transmitter output weighting will be about 1:1. For the KX3 with an external keyer, set the delay to 8 ms. John KN5L ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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