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Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

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Jim Wiley-2

Re: Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX calibration...(advice?)

Disposing of the entire "Cantenna" would be an over-reaction. The
Cantenna can be opened safely, any oil within disposed of, the component
parts rinsed in an approved solvent, and reassembled using mineral oil,
or NON-PCB transformer oil as the coolant. Use rubber gloves, dispose
of the existing coolant in an approved manner. Bottle the waste oil and
used solvent it,and take it to a hazardous waste disposal site. Most
city dumps will have such a facility. Non-PCB based transformer oils
are often available at electrical supply houses or perhaps you can find
a friend at the local power company that will give you a "fill-up" for
the asking.

The hazard to you and the environment is minimal with such a
procedure. PCB based transformer oils, "Askarel" is the trade name for
one such oil, are mildly toxic and must be handled properly, but you
won't die or even get sick from a brief exposure. If you get any on
your skin, which is unlikely if you use rubber or latex gloves, simply
wash with solvent first then copious quantities of soap and water. An
approved solvent would be Chevron 325 Thinner, also sometimes known as
"Stoddart" solvent, or equivalent.

If transformer oils were all that toxic, hundreds or even thousands of
power company employees and communications techs would have tipped over
by now- and that hasn't happened. PCBs were once commonly used in high
voltage transformers, high voltage caps, and similar items. I am not
attempting to say such materials have no hazards, it's just that such
hazards are often "hyped" to levels that are not commensurate with
the real risk.

Back to your regularly scheduled reflector now.

- Jim, KL7CC

Dave New, N8SBE wrote:

> "I don't like the idea of a can of oil sitting in the house," -- in
> particular, if you don't know what kind of oil might be lurking in that
> old Cantenna. Note that prior to the "A" suffix models, Heath
> recommended transformer oil, and had no warnings against using oils that
> contained PCBs. After PCBs were outlawed in the US, Heath changed their
> recommendation to mineral oil, and included a warning against the use of
> transformer oil of unknown composition.
>
> So, if you come across a vintage Cantenna at a ham fest, what do you
> think might be in it? If it's the old style with the little 'house' on
> top, I'd steer clear of it. The Cantenna should be disposed of, in
> accordance with federal law, and under no circumstances should be opened
> by untrained and unprotected personnel. Considering that most of these
> Cantennas leak around the screws on the lid, I'd be very leery of any of
> the 'first edition' Cantennas. The new ones, with the spiffy Red/Black
> logos, should be OK, but if you have any doubt, pass it by.
>
> 73,
>
> -- Dave, N8SBE
>
>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX
>> calibration...(advice?)
>> From: Ken Nicely <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Tue, February 23, 2010 11:11 pm
>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> I have the MFJ 264
>> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-264
>>
>> I have been using this for about 9 months now without a problem. I use it
>> to tune the amp putting about 500 or 600 watts into it for short periods of
>> time with no problems. If you want a nice one that you wont outgrow for a
>> while I would recommend it. I don't like the idea of a can of oil sitting
>> in the house, and why have that heavy paint can full of oil sitting around
>> when you can put this little air cooled unit on the shelf. All for about
>> $75.00.
>>
>> Of course this is overkill for what you need now, but you might consider it
>> if you ever plan on an amp in the future.
>>
>> Ken KE3C
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

Alan Bloom

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3

When was the Heath Cantenna introduced? I know it was already old news
when I got started in 1968. I found a reference to it in an old 73
article in the January 1963 issue:

The Heath Cantenna - 73 gets out the can opener ........ W3UZN 62

Had PCBs already been discontinued by then?

> It doesn't "make it right", but we had transformer shop employees
> that literally stood chest deep in the stuff inside large substation
> transformers when they were overhauled or a tap needed changed.

Although it's probably a good thing that PCBs have been discontinued I have always suspected that the hysteria about them is a bit overdone.

Al N1AL

On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 19:44 +0000, Ken Kopp wrote:

> As a (retired) career power company employee I can say with
> reasonable certainty that the "transformer oil" that was available
> to --most-- scrounging hams since the introduction of the Cantenna
> was -unlikely- to contain PCB's.
>
> At least in the circumstances familiar to me, PCB-containing
> transformer oil was mostly long gone by the time the Cantenna
> was introduced. It was certainly gone "as new" out of the barrel,
> but did remain in transformers already in place, but few if any
> hams received their oil from a transformer. (:-)
>
> It doesn't "make it right", but we had transformer shop employees
> that literally stood chest deep in the stuff inside large substation
> transformers when they were overhauled or a tap needed changed.
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
> [hidden email]

Ken Kopp-3

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

Yes Al, I also view the matter as mostly hysteria driven. I know
of no employee who has had any illness traced to PCB's, but like
many such illnesses it's impossible to know the actual cause/s.

As far as I know, OSHA has not made an issue of the work that
continues today.

73! Ken
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Mel

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

K6KBE Take a look at this site. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1568545/

PCBs were is use well into the late 70's.

Mel,

--- On Tue, 3/2/10, Alan Bloom <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Alan Bloom <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Transformer oil in DL's
To: "Ken Kopp" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Date: Tuesday, March 2, 2010, 1:49 PM

When was the Heath Cantenna introduced? I know it was already old news
when I got started in 1968. I found a reference to it in an old 73
article in the January 1963 issue:

The Heath Cantenna - 73 gets out the can opener ........ W3UZN 62

Had PCBs already been discontinued by then?

> It doesn't "make it right", but we had transformer shop employees
> that literally stood chest deep in the stuff inside large substation
> transformers when they were overhauled or a tap needed changed.

Although it's probably a good thing that PCBs have been discontinued I have always suspected that the hysteria about them is a bit overdone.

Al N1AL

On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 19:44 +0000, Ken Kopp wrote:

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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Milt -- N5IA

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3

And I have to totally agree with Ken. I have the same experience. Career 40+ years in power distribution.

If you really want the "rest of the story", do a search on Google or other search engine for "Death of Humas by PCB Polychlorinated Biphenyl's". I don't think you will find anything.

Feeding hundreds of times a normal "dose" of PCB to laboratory rats or a LOOOOONG time period showed the following: Quote

"Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) are among the most widespread and persistent pollutants in the global environment. Coplanar and noncoplanar PCBs have been shown to cause congener-specific apoptosis mediated neurotoxicity in rats.

Very few, if any, such studies have been reported on human renal cell toxicity. The authors report here caspase-dependent or caspase-independent renal toxicity, as measured by apoptotic death induced by PCBs, depending on the planarity of congeners PCB-77 (coplanar) and PCB-153 (noncoplanar) in human kidney cells (HK2) in vitro. The authors have combined morphological and biological techniques to discover the relevance of apoptosis in renal proximal tubule cell death induced by these two PCB congeners. Treatment with both PCB congeners caused accelerated apoptosis in a time- and concentration-dependent manner.

Based on our findings using human kidney (HK2) cells, there was more apoptosis-mediated loss of cell viability by non-ortho-substituted PCB-77 when compared to PCB-153. A significant increase of caspase-3 expression through immunoblot studies showed the involvement of apoptosis by PCB-77 compared to none by PCB-153. The broad-spectrum caspase inhibitor z-VAD-fmk showed increased cell death when treated by PCB-153, but not by PCB-77, confirming that caspase inhibitor induced a switch in the mode of cell death. It is reasonable to assume that apoptotic cell death in the renal proximal tubule cells treated by PCBs may have both caspase-dependent and caspase-independent pathways."

They don't quote the amount of TIME and the CONCENTRATION. I cannot find record of, and have never heard of, a human being suffering death or even sickness due to normal exposure to fluids containing PCBs.

However, by the Stockholm Convention worldwide (2001) and the US Congress in the USA (1979), billions of dollars have been spent testing, labeling, replacing and buring or destroying power distribution equipment which were "contaminated" with but a few PPM of PCB in the dielectric fluids.

The capacitors, transformers and oil which were removed from the distribution system which I worked for are now buried deep inside a rock mountain in Nevada at a great expense.

And the fluids which replaced the PCB fluids cost a whole lot more and were less effective (less dielectric strength).

Do your own research and draw your own conclusions regarding PCBs. YMMV.

73 de Milt, N5IA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Kopp" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dave New, N8SBE" <[hidden email]>; "Ken Nicely" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Transformer oil in DL's

David Christ

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

Sort of my question. In about 1969 when I was a lab tech for a small
college I was given 5 gal out of a 55 gal barrel of transformer oil
they had for X-ray machine transformers. I still have that pail,
tightly capped, sequestered in a junk but dry trailer away from my
buildings. Haven't gotten it to haz mat disposal yet. I often
wished there was an easy test for PCBs. If it were PCB free it would
be nice to have.

David K0LUM

At 1:49 PM -0800 3/2/10, Alan Bloom wrote:

>When was the Heath Cantenna introduced? I know it was already old news
>when I got started in 1968. I found a reference to it in an old 73
>article in the January 1963 issue:
>
>The Heath Cantenna - 73 gets out the can opener ........ W3UZN 62
>
>Had PCBs already been discontinued by then?
>
>
>On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 19:44 +0000, Ken Kopp wrote:
>> As a (retired) career power company employee I can say with
>> reasonable certainty that the "transformer oil" that was available
>> to --most-- scrounging hams since the introduction of the Cantenna
>> was -unlikely- to contain PCB's.
>>
>> At least in the circumstances familiar to me, PCB-containing
>> transformer oil was mostly long gone by the time the Cantenna
>> was introduced. It was certainly gone "as new" out of the barrel,
>> but did remain in transformers already in place, but few if any
> > hams received their oil from a transformer. (:-)
>>

Dave New, N8SBE

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3

That's really the crux of the issue.

I didn't intend to make it sound like a scare tactic.

But, if you have something you suspect may contain PCBs, your life gets
more complicated.

I feel sorry for the folks that get stuck with suspect materials,
because it will be a royal pain to get rid of it legally.

That's all.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Transformer oil in DL's
> From: David Christ <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, March 02, 2010 5:20 pm
> To: [hidden email], Ken Kopp <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
>
> Sort of my question. In about 1969 when I was a lab tech for a small
> college I was given 5 gal out of a 55 gal barrel of transformer oil
> they had for X-ray machine transformers. I still have that pail,
> tightly capped, sequestered in a junk but dry trailer away from my
> buildings. Haven't gotten it to haz mat disposal yet. I often
> wished there was an easy test for PCBs. If it were PCB free it would
> be nice to have.
>
> David K0LUM
>
>
> At 1:49 PM -0800 3/2/10, Alan Bloom wrote:
> >When was the Heath Cantenna introduced? I know it was already old news
> >when I got started in 1968. I found a reference to it in an old 73
> >article in the January 1963 issue:
> >
> >The Heath Cantenna - 73 gets out the can opener ........ W3UZN 62
> >
> >Had PCBs already been discontinued by then?
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 19:44 +0000, Ken Kopp wrote:
> >> As a (retired) career power company employee I can say with
> >> reasonable certainty that the "transformer oil" that was available
> >> to --most-- scrounging hams since the introduction of the Cantenna
> >> was -unlikely- to contain PCB's.
> >>
> >> At least in the circumstances familiar to me, PCB-containing
> >> transformer oil was mostly long gone by the time the Cantenna
> >> was introduced. It was certainly gone "as new" out of the barrel,
> >> but did remain in transformers already in place, but few if any
> > > hams received their oil from a transformer. (:-)
> >>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Dave New, N8SBE

Re: Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX calibration...(advice?)

In reply to this post by Jeff Hall, W6UX

Jim,

Don't know what the disposal situation is in your neck of the woods, but
where I live in SE Mich, no local hazardous disposal site will handle
the material. I asked.

I'd have to hire an 'environmental' company to come in and remove the
stuff, and then they have certain approved means of breaking down the
chemical composition to dispose of it. If you go to the EPA site on
PCBs, they have links to the companies that are approved to handle PCB
disposal.

That's why I'd steer clear of older Cantennas. It's not worth the
hassle to get one tested and then to dispose of it, if need be. It
would clearly end up costing far more than the bargain price you paid
for it in the flea market.

Note that this has nothing to do with whether you think the stuff is
dangerous or not. Our government has stepped in and decided how PCBs
are to be handled.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX
> calibration...(advice?)
> From: Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, March 02, 2010 2:48 pm
> To:
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
>
> Disposing of the entire "Cantenna" would be an over-reaction. The
> Cantenna can be opened safely, any oil within disposed of, the component
> parts rinsed in an approved solvent, and reassembled using mineral oil,
> or NON-PCB transformer oil as the coolant. Use rubber gloves, dispose
> of the existing coolant in an approved manner. Bottle the waste oil and
> used solvent it,and take it to a hazardous waste disposal site. Most
> city dumps will have such a facility. Non-PCB based transformer oils
> are often available at electrical supply houses or perhaps you can find
> a friend at the local power company that will give you a "fill-up" for
> the asking.
>
>
> The hazard to you and the environment is minimal with such a
> procedure. PCB based transformer oils, "Askarel" is the trade name for
> one such oil, are mildly toxic and must be handled properly, but you
> won't die or even get sick from a brief exposure. If you get any on
> your skin, which is unlikely if you use rubber or latex gloves, simply
> wash with solvent first then copious quantities of soap and water. An
> approved solvent would be Chevron 325 Thinner, also sometimes known as
> "Stoddart" solvent, or equivalent.
>
>
> If transformer oils were all that toxic, hundreds or even thousands of
> power company employees and communications techs would have tipped over
> by now- and that hasn't happened. PCBs were once commonly used in high
> voltage transformers, high voltage caps, and similar items. I am not
> attempting to say such materials have no hazards, it's just that such
> hazards are often "hyped" to levels that are not commensurate with
> the real risk.
>
>
> Back to your regularly scheduled reflector now.
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
> Dave New, N8SBE wrote:
> > "I don't like the idea of a can of oil sitting in the house," -- in
> > particular, if you don't know what kind of oil might be lurking in that
> > old Cantenna. Note that prior to the "A" suffix models, Heath
> > recommended transformer oil, and had no warnings against using oils that
> > contained PCBs. After PCBs were outlawed in the US, Heath changed their
> > recommendation to mineral oil, and included a warning against the use of
> > transformer oil of unknown composition.
> >
> > So, if you come across a vintage Cantenna at a ham fest, what do you
> > think might be in it? If it's the old style with the little 'house' on
> > top, I'd steer clear of it. The Cantenna should be disposed of, in
> > accordance with federal law, and under no circumstances should be opened
> > by untrained and unprotected personnel. Considering that most of these
> > Cantennas leak around the screws on the lid, I'd be very leery of any of
> > the 'first edition' Cantennas. The new ones, with the spiffy Red/Black
> > logos, should be OK, but if you have any doubt, pass it by.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > -- Dave, N8SBE
> >
> >
> >> -------- Original Message --------
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX
> >> calibration...(advice?)
> >> From: Ken Nicely <[hidden email]>
> >> Date: Tue, February 23, 2010 11:11 pm
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >> I have the MFJ 264
> >> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-264
> >>
> >> I have been using this for about 9 months now without a problem. I use it
> >> to tune the amp putting about 500 or 600 watts into it for short periods of
> >> time with no problems. If you want a nice one that you wont outgrow for a
> >> while I would recommend it. I don't like the idea of a can of oil sitting
> >> in the house, and why have that heavy paint can full of oil sitting around
> >> when you can put this little air cooled unit on the shelf. All for about
> >> $75.00.
> >>
> >> Of course this is overkill for what you need now, but you might consider it
> >> if you ever plan on an amp in the future.
> >>
> >> Ken KE3C
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Michael McShan

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Milt -- N5IA

Well, to be fair, only the abstract is available online unless you
have a subscription to the International Journal of Toxicology, and so
you would have to get the full article to judge the methods. I'm on
campus at OU Medical Center and we don't have online access to this
journal. So, from only the abstract I can tell the following:

1. This was a study on a human kidney cell line, not rats.
2. Their measurements of toxicity were apoptosis and morphological
changes. Apoptosis is programmed cell death: exposure of cells to some
chemicals or toxins can trigger a suicide response so that they die
after a number of specific physiological changes. Kidney cells are
considered an important model system since you would like to avoid
apoptosis in your kidneys. :-) Apoptosis is often accompanied by
visible changes is the cells under the microscope.
3. Their main point was the differences in triggering apoptosis by two
different forms of PCB and the role of the enzyme caspase-3 in these
differences.
4. My guess is that the incubation periods were less than two weeks
and possibly less than one week, given that we are dealing with
cultured human cells.

It is not at all unusual for method details to be omitted from the
abstract in biological sciences: often journals have strict word
limits on abstracts. So, nothing is being hidden; you would just have
to get the full article. My interest would be to see: 1) the doses
used and whether these are relevant to known human occupational
exposures, and 2) whether the differences seen in the study were
significant statistically. Even then you gotta look carefully at the
results. As I tell my students, if something doubles your risk of
being run over by a bus from 1 in a million to 2 in a million, you
probably still will cross the street.

Finally, I'm a microbiologist and no expert on PCBs. However, I can
tell you that your risk of death is probably higher from exposure to
influenza.

72/73 and sorry for the dissertation on toxicology,
Mike N5JKY

On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Milt, N5IA wrote:

> And I have to totally agree with Ken. I have the same experience.
> Career 40+ years in power distribution.
>
> If you really want the "rest of the story", do a search on Google or
> other search engine for "Death of Humas by PCB Polychlorinated
> Biphenyl's". I don't think you will find anything.
>
> Feeding hundreds of times a normal "dose" of PCB to laboratory rats
> or a LOOOOONG time period showed the following: Quote
>
> "Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) are among the most widespread and
> persistent pollutants in the global environment. Coplanar and
> noncoplanar PCBs have been shown to cause congener-specific
> apoptosis mediated neurotoxicity in rats.
>
> Very few, if any, such studies have been reported on human renal
> cell toxicity. The authors report here caspase-dependent or caspase-
> independent renal toxicity, as measured by apoptotic death induced
> by PCBs, depending on the planarity of congeners PCB-77 (coplanar)
> and PCB-153 (noncoplanar) in human kidney cells (HK2) in vitro. The
> authors have combined morphological and biological techniques to
> discover the relevance of apoptosis in renal proximal tubule cell
> death induced by these two PCB congeners. Treatment with both PCB
> congeners caused accelerated apoptosis in a time- and concentration-
> dependent manner.
>
> Based on our findings using human kidney (HK2) cells, there was more
> apoptosis-mediated loss of cell viability by non-ortho-substituted
> PCB-77 when compared to PCB-153. A significant increase of caspase-3
> expression through immunoblot studies showed the involvement of
> apoptosis by PCB-77 compared to none by PCB-153. The broad-spectrum
> caspase inhibitor z-VAD-fmk showed increased cell death when treated
> by PCB-153, but not by PCB-77, confirming that caspase inhibitor
> induced a switch in the mode of cell death. It is reasonable to
> assume that apoptotic cell death in the renal proximal tubule cells
> treated by PCBs may have both caspase-dependent and caspase-
> independent pathways."
>
> They don't quote the amount of TIME and the CONCENTRATION. I cannot
> find record of, and have never heard of, a human being suffering
> death or even sickness due to normal exposure to fluids containing
> PCBs.
>
> However, by the Stockholm Convention worldwide (2001) and the US
> Congress in the USA (1979), billions of dollars have been spent
> testing, labeling, replacing and buring or destroying power
> distribution equipment which were "contaminated" with but a few PPM
> of PCB in the dielectric fluids.
>
> The capacitors, transformers and oil which were removed from the
> distribution system which I worked for are now buried deep inside a
> rock mountain in Nevada at a great expense.
>
> And the fluids which replaced the PCB fluids cost a whole lot more
> and were less effective (less dielectric strength).
>
> Do your own research and draw your own conclusions regarding PCBs.
> YMMV.
>
> 73 de Milt, N5IA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Kopp" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Dave New, N8SBE" <[hidden email]>; "Ken Nicely" <[hidden email]
> >
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:44 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Transformer oil in DL's
>
>
>> As a (retired) career power company employee I can say with
>> reasonable certainty that the "transformer oil" that was available
>> to --most-- scrounging hams since the introduction of the Cantenna
>> was -unlikely- to contain PCB's.
>>
>> At least in the circumstances familiar to me, PCB-containing
>> transformer oil was mostly long gone by the time the Cantenna
>> was introduced. It was certainly gone "as new" out of the barrel,
>> but did remain in transformers already in place, but few if any
>> hams received their oil from a transformer. (:-)
>>
>> It doesn't "make it right", but we had transformer shop employees
>> that literally stood chest deep in the stuff inside large substation
>> transformers when they were overhauled or a tap needed changed.
>>
>> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
>> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Michael McShan N5JKY
Oklahoma City, OK
[hidden email]

SKCC #85
FISTS #2626
QRP ARCI #9057
NAQCC #470
EM15fl

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Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

The Cantenna was introduced sometime between late 1959 and 1961 if I
remember correctly, without the oil which had to be provided by the buyer.
Either 'Transformer' or 'Mineral' oil was used by most people who had bought
the Cantenna back then.

Geoff
GM4ESD

On Tuesday, March 02, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Alan Bloom N1AL wrote:

> When was the Heath Cantenna introduced? I know it was already old news
> when I got started in 1968. I found a reference to it in an old 73
> article in the January 1963 issue:

<snip>

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N7US

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

I got mine in the mid 1960s and filled it with transformer oil from the
power company that employed my father. I sadly took it to a hazardous
material disposal service sponsored by the local government in the late
1990s.

Jim N7US

-----Original Message-----

The Cantenna was introduced sometime between late 1959 and 1961 if I
remember correctly, without the oil which had to be provided by the buyer.
Either 'Transformer' or 'Mineral' oil was used by most people who had bought

the Cantenna back then.

Geoff
GM4ESD

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Claude Du Berger

Re: Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX calibration...(advice?)

In reply to this post by Dave New, N8SBE

Is that Cantennas made by Elecraft?
Do I have to read all this... to get news about K3?
73 de Claude VE2FK

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave New, N8SBE
To: Jim Wiley
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX calibration...(advice?)

Jim,

Don't know what the disposal situation is in your neck of the woods, but
where I live in SE Mich, no local hazardous disposal site will handle
the material. I asked.

I'd have to hire an 'environmental' company to come in and remove the
stuff, and then they have certain approved means of breaking down the
chemical composition to dispose of it. If you go to the EPA site on
PCBs, they have links to the companies that are approved to handle PCB
disposal.

That's why I'd steer clear of older Cantennas. It's not worth the
hassle to get one tested and then to dispose of it, if need be. It
would clearly end up costing far more than the bargain price you paid
for it in the flea market.

Note that this has nothing to do with whether you think the stuff is
dangerous or not. Our government has stepped in and decided how PCBs
are to be handled.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX
> calibration...(advice?)
> From: Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, March 02, 2010 2:48 pm
> To:
> Cc: [hidden email]
>
>
> Disposing of the entire "Cantenna" would be an over-reaction. The
> Cantenna can be opened safely, any oil within disposed of, the component
> parts rinsed in an approved solvent, and reassembled using mineral oil,
> or NON-PCB transformer oil as the coolant. Use rubber gloves, dispose
> of the existing coolant in an approved manner. Bottle the waste oil and
> used solvent it,and take it to a hazardous waste disposal site. Most
> city dumps will have such a facility. Non-PCB based transformer oils
> are often available at electrical supply houses or perhaps you can find
> a friend at the local power company that will give you a "fill-up" for
> the asking.
>
>
> The hazard to you and the environment is minimal with such a
> procedure. PCB based transformer oils, "Askarel" is the trade name for
> one such oil, are mildly toxic and must be handled properly, but you
> won't die or even get sick from a brief exposure. If you get any on
> your skin, which is unlikely if you use rubber or latex gloves, simply
> wash with solvent first then copious quantities of soap and water. An
> approved solvent would be Chevron 325 Thinner, also sometimes known as
> "Stoddart" solvent, or equivalent.
>
>
> If transformer oils were all that toxic, hundreds or even thousands of
> power company employees and communications techs would have tipped over
> by now- and that hasn't happened. PCBs were once commonly used in high
> voltage transformers, high voltage caps, and similar items. I am not
> attempting to say such materials have no hazards, it's just that such
> hazards are often "hyped" to levels that are not commensurate with
> the real risk.
>
>
> Back to your regularly scheduled reflector now.
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
> Dave New, N8SBE wrote:
> > "I don't like the idea of a can of oil sitting in the house," -- in
> > particular, if you don't know what kind of oil might be lurking in that
> > old Cantenna. Note that prior to the "A" suffix models, Heath
> > recommended transformer oil, and had no warnings against using oils that
> > contained PCBs. After PCBs were outlawed in the US, Heath changed their
> > recommendation to mineral oil, and included a warning against the use of
> > transformer oil of unknown composition.
> >
> > So, if you come across a vintage Cantenna at a ham fest, what do you
> > think might be in it? If it's the old style with the little 'house' on
> > top, I'd steer clear of it. The Cantenna should be disposed of, in
> > accordance with federal law, and under no circumstances should be opened
> > by untrained and unprotected personnel. Considering that most of these
> > Cantennas leak around the screws on the lid, I'd be very leery of any of
> > the 'first edition' Cantennas. The new ones, with the spiffy Red/Black
> > logos, should be OK, but if you have any doubt, pass it by.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > -- Dave, N8SBE
> >
> >
> >> -------- Original Message --------
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Need to select a dummy load for K3 TX
> >> calibration...(advice?)
> >> From: Ken Nicely <[hidden email]>
> >> Date: Tue, February 23, 2010 11:11 pm
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >> I have the MFJ 264
> >> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-264
> >>
> >> I have been using this for about 9 months now without a problem. I use it
> >> to tune the amp putting about 500 or 600 watts into it for short periods of
> >> time with no problems. If you want a nice one that you wont outgrow for a
> >> while I would recommend it. I don't like the idea of a can of oil sitting
> >> in the house, and why have that heavy paint can full of oil sitting around
> >> when you can put this little air cooled unit on the shelf. All for about
> >> $75.00.
> >>
> >> Of course this is overkill for what you need now, but you might consider it
> >> if you ever plan on an amp in the future.
> >>
> >> Ken KE3C
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>
> >
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Ken Kopp-3

OT: A real-world Cantenna caution (:-)

In reply to this post by Michael McShan

If you have a Cantina, I suggest that you open it
and check for water droplets on the bottom of the
can.

The can "breathes" as it warms and cools, and
moisture in the air will condense on the bottom
of the can. Since few of us disturb (move) the
DL, the water droplet may well rust the bottom
of the can at that point and a leak will result.

If you see a drop of water, use a straw of small
piece of Tygon tubing to siphon the drop out of
the can.

It's a good idea to set the can in a pan ... just
in case.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP

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Guy, K2AV

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by Michael McShan

I still have a cantenna (lid and resistor) that I bought in the early
sixties. The bottom part of the can has been replaced many times. I
always filled it with mineral oil. My elmer said to use mineral oil,
that the other stuff stank if the can rusted. So I did. Have never
been able to find an aluminum bottom for the can. Current incarnation
is the can from a gallon of deck stain, and a new gallon of mineral
oil. Made the mistake of leaving it in out-shed on the floor for a
while and the bottom rusted through.

I quite suspect that most oil in cantennas leaked out of a rusty spot
and was never recycled or treated as hazardous waste.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Michael McShan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Well, to be fair, only the abstract is available online unless you
> have a subscription to the International Journal of Toxicology, and so
> you would have to get the full article to judge the methods. I'm on
> campus at OU Medical Center and we don't have online access to this
> journal. So, from only the abstract I can tell the following:
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Merv Schweigert

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

In reply to this post by George & Jan

I recently bought and dismantled a 50KW AM station and the transmitter
was a
Harris, made in 1979, the transformer tested for PCB. The capacitors
were ok.
I checked the manufacturer of the transformer and they provided info that
they used PCB oil until approx 1979 or 1980.
So unless you know what is in it, dont take the chance.
Had the transformer removed and the area cleaned. Not cheap as there is no
toxic disposal on Molokai, all had to be shipped off.
Merv KH7C

> Ken
> Broadcast transmitters delivered from RCA & GE up to at least 1968 had PCBs
> in the oil filled capacitors and some transformers. I know this because I
> had to spend a significant portion of the transmitter replacement budget
> just to mitigate our disposable liability. Prior to replacing, the equipment
> had to be inspected & logged to make sure they were not leaking - quarterly
> I think.
>
> [snip]
> . . .that the "transformer oil" that was available to --most-- scrounging
> hams since the introduction of the Cantenna
> was -unlikely- to contain PCB's.
>
>
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>

Jim Wiley-2

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's

So when can we expect to hear the rig on 160 meters?

<grin>

- Jim, KL7CC

Merv Schweigert wrote:
> I recently bought and dismantled a 50KW AM station and the transmitter
> was a
> Harris,
>
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OT: Transformer oil in DL's [END of Thread]

Administrator

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

We've hit max postings limit for OT threads with the Cantenna/PCB
discussion. Let's end this thread for now.

73, Eric WA6HHQ
List Moderator

_..._

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