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Re: Questions for any K3 FTs

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N2EY

Re: Questions for any K3 FTs

In a message dated 8/21/07 9:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [hidden email]
writes:

> There was an article a while ago in Circuit Cellar
> magazine where the author (I think it was Steve Ciarcia himself) described
> the originas of his high electric bills as surprising...all those clock
> radios, microwave, dishwasher, TVs etc, etc. despite being 'off' still
> collectively drew a lot of current that addded up. I have a friend who
> uses power strips to turn off *everything*. He says it's the only
> solution these days.
>

I call shenanigans. Or at least a need for better math.

Yes, there are some devices today that continue to consume small amounts of
power even when visibly turned off. This is done for three reasons:

1) Keep the settings stored in volatile memory
2) Keep a clock or other indicator working
3) Keep the remote-control receiver alive so that you can turn the unit on
with the clicker.

In addition, many small electronic devices are powered by wall warts rather
than internal supplies so that they can be world-usable, smaller, and not have
to meet the same safety requirements as something that plugs into the wall.

Typical of such things are:

Computers with ATX or similar power supplies
Monitors
Printers
VCRs/DVD players
TVs
Microwaves
Stoves

Let's say you have 20 of these items, and each one draws 5 watts while idle.
That's 100 watts of power demand, all the time. That's one-tenth kilowatt
hour.

In a year of 365 days, there are 8760 hours. With a 100 watt load, that's 876
kilowatt hours per *year* to run all the devices.

This number is on the high side because it assumes you never use any of the
devices at all, but simply let them be on standby the entire time. So let's
assume the devices are on standby 90% of the time, and in actual use 10%. Say 800
kilowatt hours of standby.

800 kWh is a considerable amount of juice - but how much does it really cost
you? Here in EPA, where electricity prices are pretty high, I pay about 13
cents per kWh, so the annual cost is $104. That's $8.67 per month for that
theoretical 100 watt load. Except I don't have so many things plugged in drawing
standby power, so I'd guess it to be about $6 per month. Twenty cents per day.

In other parts of the country, electricity is far cheaper. At 5 cents per
kWh, you're talking $40 per year or $3.33 per month. 11 cents a day

What does a kilowatt-hour cost *you*?

73 de Jim, N2EY

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Craig Rairdin

RE: "wasted" power (was Questions for any K3 FTs)

> In a year of 365 days, there are 8760 hours. With a 100 watt load, that's
> 876 kilowatt hours per *year* to run all the devices.

I think the issue for the tree-huggers is to multiply that by 100 million
households in the US and you're talking about a lot of wasted power and a
lot of global warming. Like the ad I heard yesterday telling you to put your
cream and sugar in the cup before adding coffee in order to save on the need
for disposable stir sticks, the idea is to get everyone to unplug to save
the planet.

Of course one new nuclear power plant would generate more than enough power
to heat your coffee AND keep your TV on AND it would destroy less ozone than
a coal-burning power plant, but we can't have any of that.

Anyway the solution to all this is to do what Al Gore does: Just buy some
carbon offsets, stick some kind of colored ribbon magnet on the back of your
SUV to show you love the planet, and quit worrying about it.

Craig
NZ0R

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Simon (HB9DRV)

Re: Questions for any K3 FTs

In reply to this post by N2EY

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
>
> What does a kilowatt-hour cost *you*?
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY

About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money - energy production
causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)

Simon HB9DRV (35% hydo, 65% nuclear)

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Charly

"wasted" power

In reply to this post by Craig Rairdin

My vote for favorite way to waste power is to design electronics and
electric thing so super small that they have to have one or more fans to
cool them. Think of how many fans run all the time to cool all those
computers.... couldn't a big heat sink do the same job?

But then Al Gore only made a popular movie that changed even Bush's mind
about global warming.

Charles Harpole
[hidden email]

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Gary D Krause

Re: Questions for any K3 FTs

In reply to this post by N2EY

Yes, but you are basing this on your "assumptions". Your math may be correct
but, you are setting up the conditions of the problem which may or may not be
accurate.

The word collectively was used. So, let's say your assumptions are correct.
Multiply that by millions of households. That seems to be quite a bit to me.
I don't really enjoy just giving my money to the local utilities. I'd rather
spend $104 on ham radio toys. ;-)

Gary, N7HTS

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:48:08 EDT
[hidden email] wrote:

> In a message dated 8/21/07 9:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [hidden email]
> writes:
>
>
>> There was an article a while ago in Circuit Cellar
>> magazine where the author (I think it was Steve Ciarcia himself) described
>> the originas of his high electric bills as surprising...all those clock
>> radios, microwave, dishwasher, TVs etc, etc. despite being 'off' still
>> collectively drew a lot of current that addded up. I have a friend who
>> uses power strips to turn off *everything*. He says it's the only
>> solution these days.
>>
>
> I call shenanigans. Or at least a need for better math.
>
> Yes, there are some devices today that continue to consume small amounts of
> power even when visibly turned off. This is done for three reasons:
>
> 1) Keep the settings stored in volatile memory
> 2) Keep a clock or other indicator working
> 3) Keep the remote-control receiver alive so that you can turn the unit on
> with the clicker.
>
> In addition, many small electronic devices are powered by wall warts rather
> than internal supplies so that they can be world-usable, smaller, and not
>have
> to meet the same safety requirements as something that plugs into the wall.
>
> Typical of such things are:
>
> Computers with ATX or similar power supplies
> Monitors
> Printers
> VCRs/DVD players
> TVs
> Microwaves
> Stoves
>
> Let's say you have 20 of these items, and each one draws 5 watts while idle.
> That's 100 watts of power demand, all the time. That's one-tenth kilowatt
> hour.
>
> In a year of 365 days, there are 8760 hours. With a 100 watt load, that's
>876
> kilowatt hours per *year* to run all the devices.
>
> This number is on the high side because it assumes you never use any of the
> devices at all, but simply let them be on standby the entire time. So let's
> assume the devices are on standby 90% of the time, and in actual use 10%.
>Say 800
> kilowatt hours of standby.
>
> 800 kWh is a considerable amount of juice - but how much does it really cost
> you? Here in EPA, where electricity prices are pretty high, I pay about 13
> cents per kWh, so the annual cost is $104. That's $8.67 per month for that
> theoretical 100 watt load. Except I don't have so many things plugged in
>drawing
> standby power, so I'd guess it to be about $6 per month. Twenty cents per
>day.
>
> In other parts of the country, electricity is far cheaper. At 5 cents per
> kWh, you're talking $40 per year or $3.33 per month. 11 cents a day
>
> What does a kilowatt-hour cost *you*?
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY
>
>
> **************************************
> Get a sneak peek of
> the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>
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Julian, G4ILO

Re: Questions for any K3 FTs

In reply to this post by Simon (HB9DRV)

Yep, that's about what it costs here in the UK as well.

I'm not convinced that climate change is being caused by people
leaving their TV on stand-by or their ham-shack power supply on, and
even if it is, switching it off is going to make no difference given
the increasing industrialization of India, China and other developing
countries. But fifty quid a year of my money is worth saving. What
would it cost for manufacturers to use non-volatile memory, and
include a battery in the VCR to keep the clock going?

That won't solve the problem of keeping the batteries in the K2 and
FT-817 charged up, though. I guess a solar panel would do that, but
it's an expensive option to save a small amount of electricity (just
like the home wind turbine I saw in a local DIY store last weekend -
$2,500 equivalent for something that will generate 1KW max, in a gale,
and more like 40W in a light breeze.)

When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
to increase taxes.

--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com

On 8/29/07, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money - energy production
> causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)
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Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

N2EY

Re: Questions for any K3 FTs

In reply to this post by N2EY

In a message dated 8/29/07 11:40:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

> Yes, but you are basing this on your "assumptions". Your math may be
> correct
> but, you are setting up the conditions of the problem which may or may not
> be
> accurate.

I think my assumptions are pretty accurate. If anything, they err on the high
side.

Here they are in a nutshell:

Typical power requirement of a device on standby: 5 W
Typical number of such devices in a household: 20
Typical duty cycle of such devices: 760 hours per year of use, 8000 hours
standby.

The rest is calculation.

How much does a kilowatt hour of electricity cost? 13 cents here in EPA. 25
cents in HB9.

How much do *you* pay?

>
> The word collectively was used.

Not by me.

So, let's say your assumptions are correct.
>
> Multiply that by millions of households. That seems to be quite a bit to
> me.

Of course. But consider it as a percentage of your total use.

> I don't really enjoy just giving my money to the local utilities. I'd
> rather
> spend $104 on ham radio toys. ;-)
>

Me too.

73 de Jim, N2EY

**************************************
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all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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Joe Subich, W4TV

RE: Questions for any K3 FTs

In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO

> When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
> using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
> isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
> to increase taxes.

When CO2 levels in the atmosphere begin to approach the midpoint of
the historical (geologic) average, I'll believe that human generated
CO2 is a threat to the planet.

Is the climate changing? Yes. Has the planetary climate changed many
times and through great extremes before human civilization and
industrialization? Yes. Is climate change the result of the increase
in CO2 as the result of industrialization? Not by a long shot! Will
reducing the output of population related CO2 effect climate change?
Probably not since CO2 production due to human activity is but a
tiny fraction of all global CO2 production.

This alleged connection between human CO2 and Global Warming is
nothing more than a transparent attempt by bureaucrats to further
erode individual rights and impose central control.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian G4ILO
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:45 AM
> To: elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs
>
>
> Yep, that's about what it costs here in the UK as well.
>
> I'm not convinced that climate change is being caused by people
> leaving their TV on stand-by or their ham-shack power supply on, and
> even if it is, switching it off is going to make no difference given
> the increasing industrialization of India, China and other developing
> countries. But fifty quid a year of my money is worth saving. What
> would it cost for manufacturers to use non-volatile memory, and
> include a battery in the VCR to keep the clock going?
>
> That won't solve the problem of keeping the batteries in the K2 and
> FT-817 charged up, though. I guess a solar panel would do that, but
> it's an expensive option to save a small amount of electricity (just
> like the home wind turbine I saw in a local DIY store last weekend -
> $2,500 equivalent for something that will generate 1KW max, in a gale,
> and more like 40W in a light breeze.)
>
> When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
> using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
> isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
> to increase taxes.
>
> --
> Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ???
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
>
>
> On 8/29/07, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > About 25 cents (US). It's not just about saving money -
> energy production
> > causes pollution, it's about saving our poor planet as well :-)
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

Greg - AB7R

RE: Questions for any K3 FTs

A FREAKIN' MEN!

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 2:11 PM
To: 'Julian G4ILO'; 'elecraft'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Questions for any K3 FTs

> When the greener option is cheaper, and taking a train costs less than
> using the car, I'll start believing that this global warming thing
> isn't just an excuse for businesses to make more money and governments
> to increase taxes.

When CO2 levels in the atmosphere begin to approach the midpoint of
the historical (geologic) average, I'll believe that human generated
CO2 is a threat to the planet.

Is the climate changing? Yes. Has the planetary climate changed many
times and through great extremes before human civilization and
industrialization? Yes. Is climate change the result of the increase
in CO2 as the result of industrialization? Not by a long shot! Will
reducing the output of population related CO2 effect climate change?
Probably not since CO2 production due to human activity is but a
tiny fraction of all global CO2 production.

This alleged connection between human CO2 and Global Warming is
nothing more than a transparent attempt by bureaucrats to further
erode individual rights and impose central control.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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