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Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

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Gary Hvizdak

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

All,

With regard to the Radio Shack's 276-2370 "Anti-Static Service Kit", check
out the message Alan Bloom (N1AL) posted a couple years ago which begins ...

Well, I've convinced myself that the Radio Shack portable ESD mat, P/N
276-2370 doesn't work properly ...

You can read the full text of Alan's post in the Reflector archives at
http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2008-February/083794.html

73,
Gary KI4GGX

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David Christ

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

So the question becomes does it work well enough for assembling
Elecraft kits even though it does not meet industry specs. Not
backing any particular horse in this race, but I know that there are
other areas in which industry specs are overkill for me.

Who knows the answer?

David K0LUM

At 1:25 PM -0400 3/25/10, Gary Hvizdak wrote:

>All,
>
>With regard to the Radio Shack's 276-2370 "Anti-Static Service Kit", check
>out the message Alan Bloom (N1AL) posted a couple years ago which begins ...
>
>Well, I've convinced myself that the Radio Shack portable ESD mat, P/N
>276-2370 doesn't work properly ...
>
>You can read the full text of Alan's post in the Reflector archives at
>http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2008-February/083794.html
>
>73,
>Gary KI4GGX
>
>______________________________________________________________
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Don Cunningham

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

David,
I was the one that brought this mat up (unfortunately), and all I can say is
that it was fine for putting my K3 together very successfully and I'll use
it again. I'll stop there, but will add that any time I like, after walking
across my floor here, I can draw a spark from metal objects. While building
my kit, I followed Don's suggestions to the letter, always putting on the
wrist strap before beginning and touching the mat before any parts or tools
and grounded the "system" through the mains ground in my shack (tied to
shack ground too, of course).
As always, one should weigh evidence and do what they see as the solution.
73, and I'll go back into my cave,
Don, WB5HAK

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k6dgw

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

In reply to this post by Gary Hvizdak

Gary Hvizdak wrote:

Ingenious test set up Alan used to measure 1.0E10 ohms.

Fred K6DGW
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Alan Bloom

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

In reply to this post by Gary Hvizdak

If you have the Radio Shack mat, I recommend using it even though I'm
not convinced it does a proper job of bleeding off static charge. For
one thing, the anti-static wrist strap that comes with it does work.
For another, even though it may not prevent static build up, at least it
probably doesn't generate static charge itself as many plastics and
other materials do.

The proper procedures are important. Use a grounded soldering iron and
connect the mat/wrist strap to the safety ground pin of a power socket.
That ensures that you and the soldering iron are at the same potential.
If in addition you are careful to always touch the chassis of the
equipment or the ground/common of the PC board you are working on before
you touch any circuitry (with your fingers or the soldering iron) then
you should be safe.

Alan N1AL

On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 13:25 -0400, Gary Hvizdak wrote:

> All,
>
> With regard to the Radio Shack's 276-2370 "Anti-Static Service Kit", check
> out the message Alan Bloom (N1AL) posted a couple years ago which begins ...
>
> Well, I've convinced myself that the Radio Shack portable ESD mat, P/N
> 276-2370 doesn't work properly ...
>
> You can read the full text of Alan's post in the Reflector archives at
> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2008-February/083794.html
>
> 73,
> Gary KI4GGX
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Mike Reublin

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

In reply to this post by David Christ

My antecdoctal evidence says it worked for me, both on the initial build
and on the removal and re-installation of the DSP board after upgrade.
I'm not going to argue with what Alan said, as I'm not qualified, but
I'm betting the health of my K3 on it, and wouldn't hesitate to pull it
out again. YMMV.

Perhaps Elecraft could publish what it considers to be minimum
requirements, but I'd be willing to bet a cold 807 that because of
liability issues, they'd go for the high-end specs.

73, Mike NF4L

David Christ wrote:

> So the question becomes does it work well enough for assembling
> Elecraft kits even though it does not meet industry specs. Not
> backing any particular horse in this race, but I know that there are
> other areas in which industry specs are overkill for me.
>
> Who knows the answer?
>
> David K0LUM
>
>
>
> At 1:25 PM -0400 3/25/10, Gary Hvizdak wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> With regard to the Radio Shack's 276-2370 "Anti-Static Service Kit", check
>> out the message Alan Bloom (N1AL) posted a couple years ago which begins ...
>>
>> Well, I've convinced myself that the Radio Shack portable ESD mat, P/N
>> 276-2370 doesn't work properly ...
>>
>> You can read the full text of Alan's post in the Reflector archives at
>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2008-February/083794.html
>>
>> 73,
>> Gary KI4GGX
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>
>

Brett Howard

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

The issue is that ESD often doesn't immediately kill components. More
often it simply shortens their lifespans.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 20:59 -0400, Mike wrote:

> My antecdoctal evidence says it worked for me, both on the initial build
> and on the removal and re-installation of the DSP board after upgrade.
> I'm not going to argue with what Alan said, as I'm not qualified, but
> I'm betting the health of my K3 on it, and wouldn't hesitate to pull it
> out again. YMMV.
>
> Perhaps Elecraft could publish what it considers to be minimum
> requirements, but I'd be willing to bet a cold 807 that because of
> liability issues, they'd go for the high-end specs.
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> David Christ wrote:
> > So the question becomes does it work well enough for assembling
> > Elecraft kits even though it does not meet industry specs. Not
> > backing any particular horse in this race, but I know that there are
> > other areas in which industry specs are overkill for me.
> >
> > Who knows the answer?
> >
> > David K0LUM
> >
> >
> >
> > At 1:25 PM -0400 3/25/10, Gary Hvizdak wrote:
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> With regard to the Radio Shack's 276-2370 "Anti-Static Service Kit", check
> >> out the message Alan Bloom (N1AL) posted a couple years ago which begins ...
> >>
> >> Well, I've convinced myself that the Radio Shack portable ESD mat, P/N
> >> 276-2370 doesn't work properly ...
> >>
> >> You can read the full text of Alan's post in the Reflector archives at
> >> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2008-February/083794.html
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Gary KI4GGX
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Mike Reublin

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

Oh? I didn't know that. How's that work?

Mike

Brett Howard wrote:

> The issue is that ESD often doesn't immediately kill components. More
> often it simply shortens their lifespans.
>
> ~Brett (KC7OTG)
>
>
> On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 20:59 -0400, Mike wrote:
>
>> My antecdoctal evidence says it worked for me, both on the initial build
>> and on the removal and re-installation of the DSP board after upgrade.
>> I'm not going to argue with what Alan said, as I'm not qualified, but
>> I'm betting the health of my K3 on it, and wouldn't hesitate to pull it
>> out again. YMMV.
>>
>> Perhaps Elecraft could publish what it considers to be minimum
>> requirements, but I'd be willing to bet a cold 807 that because of
>> liability issues, they'd go for the high-end specs.
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
>> David Christ wrote:
>>
>>> So the question becomes does it work well enough for assembling
>>> Elecraft kits even though it does not meet industry specs. Not
>>> backing any particular horse in this race, but I know that there are
>>> other areas in which industry specs are overkill for me.
>>>
>>> Who knows the answer?
>>>
>>> David K0LUM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 1:25 PM -0400 3/25/10, Gary Hvizdak wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> With regard to the Radio Shack's 276-2370 "Anti-Static Service Kit", check
>>>> out the message Alan Bloom (N1AL) posted a couple years ago which begins ...
>>>>
>>>> Well, I've convinced myself that the Radio Shack portable ESD mat, P/N
>>>> 276-2370 doesn't work properly ...
>>>>
>>>> You can read the full text of Alan's post in the Reflector archives at
>>>> http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/elecraft/2008-February/083794.html
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Gary KI4GGX
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
>
>

Rich

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

In reply to this post by Gary Hvizdak

I have concerns about how that resistance was determined. I do not think the methodology provides an accurate result.
First, look at eh schematic of the 260 - there are components in series /parallel with the meter. Even with just the low current jack, there are still components in series.
Second, I have never, NEVER, seen an analog meter provide accurate reading of a peak or transient voltage. The frequency response/ transient response is not there. Some of the components in parallel with the meter movement are there to protect the meter. Additionally, there are balanced weights on the mechanical portion of the movement to "stabilize" the movement and thus decrease transient response.
When trying to calibrate a synchro system that was providing a sine wave of about 20 Hz, my Simpson (freshly calibrated) was off by more than 20 %. of the voltage displayed on an Oscilloscope which I was using for making the adjustment.
Third, I know of no Simpson 260 that has a lowest range of 60 micro-amps, everyone I know of is either 100 or 50 micro-amps. Don't knew what the new ones are, but am sure that none of the old big ones have that value.
Here is a source for some info on the various Simpson meters.
http://simpson260.com/downloads/downloads.htm

Rich

Alan Bloom

Re: Radio Shack ESD mat doesn't meet spec

Yes, I realize my measurement technique was not very accurate. For one
thing, reading a meter flicker down around 10% of full scale is probably
gives no better than +/-50% or so accuracy. But the Radio Shack
anti-static mat was reading a couple orders of magnitude greater than
the resistivity specified in the ANSI standard. A measurement error on
the order of 50% doesn't matter.

I have just ordered another anti-static mat from Digi-Key, a 2x3-foot
desktop mat made by Desco, DK part number 16-1121-ND for $38.18. Unlike
the Radio Shack product, this one has an actual data sheet where it
states that it meets the ANSI spec. As a reality check I will try
measuring it using the same technique I used before. If it also
measures too high a resistance then I will conclude that there is
something badly wrong with my measurement procedure. But if it reads
OK, then I think we can safely assume the Radio Shack mat doesn't work
as it should.

Al N1AL

On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 14:05 -0800, Rich wrote:

> I have concerns about how that resistance was determined. I do not think the
> methodology provides an accurate result.
> First, look at eh schematic of the 260 - there are components in series
> /parallel with the meter. Even with just the low current jack, there are
> still components in series.
> Second, I have never, NEVER, seen an analog meter provide accurate reading
> of a peak or transient voltage. The frequency response/ transient response
> is not there. Some of the components in parallel with the meter movement are
> there to protect the meter. Additionally, there are balanced weights on the
> mechanical portion of the movement to "stabilize" the movement and thus
> decrease transient response.
> When trying to calibrate a synchro system that was providing a sine wave of
> about 20 Hz, my Simpson (freshly calibrated) was off by more than 20 %. of
> the voltage displayed on an Oscilloscope which I was using for making the
> adjustment.
> Third, I know of no Simpson 260 that has a lowest range of 60 micro-amps,
> everyone I know of is either 100 or 50 micro-amps. Don't knew what the new
> ones are, but am sure that none of the old big ones have that value.
> Here is a source for some info on the various Simpson meters.
> http://simpson260.com/downloads/downloads.htm
>
> Rich
>

Alan Bloom

OT: Internal keyer in TS-480

The latest (April 2010) issue of QST has an article by VA7XB about a
HF/VHF/UHF emergency "Go Kit" that was designed for a Surrey, BC amateur
radio group. They built three of them. The HF transceiver they
selected was the TS-480SAT. There is an interesting comment near the
end of the article:

"An external CW keyer is included in the kit even though the TS-480SAT
has its own internal keyer. This was found necessary because many CW
operators are unable to adapt to the unique characteristics of the
Kenwood built-in keyer."

Is this just a matter of different operators having different keyer
preferences, or is there something unusual about the Kenwood internal
keyer?

Al N1AL

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Nathan Edson

Re: OT: Internal keyer in TS-480

Most newer rigs only offer iambic type "B" keying while many operators
prefer type "A". I would guess this is the reason the article mentioned
including an external keyer.

Nathan, KO6U
Type "A" Guy
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Dave, G4AON

Re: OT: Internal keyer in TS-480

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

I have a K1, K2, K3 and TS-480SAT. I always use the internal keyers in
them and find no issues with the way they key, Elecraft and Kenwood
internal keyers seem very similar to me. I use Iambic B with a weight of
1 (from the K3 menu in front of me). The only radios that I've had an
issue with were the FT-857D which lacks a decent internal keyer and a
TS-570 which had a keyer timing issue - Kenwood knew about the 570
keying issue for some time prior to mine being manufactured but still
produced defective radios needing a return to the importer to have it
updated...

I use a Palm Mini paddle for portable operating and used their Code Cube
keyer with the FT-857D, however the Code Cube is not used, or needed,
with my current Elecraft or TS-480 radios.

73 Dave, G4AON

<SNIP>
Is this just a matter of different operators having different keyer
preferences, or is there something unusual about the Kenwood internal
keyer?

Al N1AL
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Mike Harris

Re: OT: Internal keyer in TS-480

In reply to this post by Nathan Edson

G'day,

I use mode B in both my K2 and K3. However, If I try to use mode B
with my microHAM CW KEYER I usually end up messing it up and when
you mess up you worry about messing up so mess up even more! At
this point I give up. Fortunately the K3 enables me to plug in both
but I lose the message interrupt facility from the paddles when
plugged into the external keyer.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathan Edson" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Internal keyer in TS-480

> Most newer rigs only offer iambic type "B" keying while many
> operators
> prefer type "A". I would guess this is the reason the article
> mentioned
> including an external keyer.
>
> Nathan, KO6U
> Type "A" Guy

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