Re: hot glue K2 toroids?
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I used to work for a military radio manufacturer and I saw first hand what
vibration can do to frustrate the best intentions of design engineers (hint: it gave new meaning to the term "flying capacitor")! The K2 wasn't designed to withstand serious (military test-like) vibration. A few years back Wayne posted his recommendation to NOT to glue the toroids. I had built a few K2s by then and, thinking that I was improving the design, I hot-glued the toroids. I felt a level of guilt after reading Wayne's post but the hot-glued radios performed very well so no harm, no foul, I guessed. Besides, I had seen hot glue and bees wax used in all manner of commercial AM/FM radios to secure air-wound coils and wires. The assembled toroids have low mass so damage from vibration is unlikely unless the rig is shot from a cannon or dropped from an unreasonable height. The K2s seem to survive the real world just fine based on the anecdotal comments offered on the Reflector so there is no need to "make it better" with hot glue. What has been posted recently in the Reflector on the subject seems to be centered on the difficulty of repairing the radios with hot-glued toroids. That is adequate reason alone to avoid using hot glue. (Are you really certain that you counted those turns correctly?) Applying hot glue in tiny amounts takes a level of creativity and skill not found with every kit builder. It doesn't serve Elecraft to recommend the use of extraordinary skills when they mean to demonstrate the fun and ease of building their kits. And there is electronic justification for not gluing toroids. Anything used to adhere the wound toroid to the PCB will likely have a dielectric constant different than that of air, which is the environmental condition in which the toroids were designed to operate. Those tiny inter-winding capacitances and their dissipation factors are affected by whatever surrounds the turns. The result is not exactly what the designers intended, though it may work nonetheless, tolerances being what they are. But why risk it? Rick KC0OV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I currently work for a military radio manufacturer and we vibrate
everything we make because lives depend on our products. In cases where vibration is an issue we use RTV to provide a cushion. I am not suggesting anything just stating a commercial fact. Step away from the hot glue gun. It is for scrapbooking not radio manufacture. 73, Sid > Applying hot glue in tiny amounts takes a level of creativity and skill not > found with most kit builders. > Why risk it? ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I doubt you use actual RTV but a RTV-like sealant. RTV contains acetic
acid and will eat/corrode electronics and is a no-no for mil hardware. In mil spec hardware I doubt you are winding your own toroids. While it was common practice to do your own air wound coil knifing, the CMMI people have pretty much axed that practice as it makes it too easy to loose the recipe and manufacturing costs are too high. Now everything is bought with a ridiculous tolerance spec from coilcraft or its laser trimmed. (just gave the manufacturing cost to someone else really, but the big wigs never realize that) Just wanted to give my 0.02 before some people got the idea to goto the hardware store and grab RTV, make sure you know what they are using as the solvent! /also produces military hardware Matt W8ESE Former KD8DAO http://blog.MattIsKichigai.com On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:14 PM, SidShusterman <[hidden email]> wrote: > I currently work for a military radio manufacturer and we vibrate > everything we make because lives depend on our products. In cases where > vibration is an issue we use RTV to provide a cushion. I am not > suggesting anything just stating a commercial fact. > Step away from the hot glue gun. It is for scrapbooking not radio > manufacture. > 73, > Sid > > >> Applying hot glue in tiny amounts takes a level of creativity and skill not >> found with most kit builders. >> Why risk it? > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I believe there is lots of non out-gasing RTV's out there. I use it for power dividers all the time. Just smell it, it's pretty easy to tell the difference.
Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: Matt Palmer To: SidShusterman Cc: [hidden email], Rick Shindley Sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 20:25:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [Elecraft] hot glue K2 toroids? I doubt you use actual RTV but a RTV-like sealant. RTV contains acetic acid and will eat/corrode electronics and is a no-no for mil hardware. In mil spec hardware I doubt you are winding your own toroids. While it was common practice to do your own air wound coil knifing, the CMMI people have pretty much axed that practice as it makes it too easy to loose the recipe and manufacturing costs are too high. Now everything is bought with a ridiculous tolerance spec from coilcraft or its laser trimmed. (just gave the manufacturing cost to someone else really, but the big wigs never realize that) Just wanted to give my 0.02 before some people got the idea to goto the hardware store and grab RTV, make sure you know what they are using as the solvent! /also produces military hardware Matt W8ESE Former KD8DAO http://blog.MattIsKichigai.com On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:14 PM, SidShusterman wrote: > I currently work for a military radio manufacturer and we vibrate > everything we make because lives depend on our products. In cases where > vibration is an issue we use RTV to provide a cushion. I am not > suggesting anything just stating a commercial fact. > Step away from the hot glue gun. It is for scrapbooking not radio > manufacture. > 73, > Sid > > >> Applying hot glue in tiny amounts takes a level of creativity and skill not >> found with most kit builders. >> Why risk it? > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Matt Palmer-4
Exactly true on all counts. RTV will rot the parts eventually. Thanks
Matt for stopping the thread before it gets out of control. I continue this off line with you :) Sid Matt Palmer wrote: > I doubt you use actual RTV but a RTV-like sealant. RTV contains acetic > acid and will eat/corrode electronics and is a no-no for mil hardware. > In mil spec hardware I doubt you are winding your own toroids. While > it was common practice to do your own air wound coil knifing, the CMMI > people have pretty much axed that practice as it makes it too easy to > loose the recipe and manufacturing costs are too high. Now everything > is bought with a ridiculous tolerance spec from coilcraft or its laser > trimmed. (just gave the manufacturing cost to someone else really, but > the big wigs never realize that) > > Just wanted to give my 0.02 before some people got the idea to goto > the hardware store and grab RTV, make sure you know what they are > using as the solvent! > > /also produces military hardware > Matt > W8ESE > Former KD8DAO > http://blog.MattIsKichigai.com > > > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 3:14 PM, SidShusterman <[hidden email]> wrote: >> I currently work for a military radio manufacturer and we vibrate >> everything we make because lives depend on our products. In cases where >> vibration is an issue we use RTV to provide a cushion. I am not >> suggesting anything just stating a commercial fact. >> Step away from the hot glue gun. It is for scrapbooking not radio >> manufacture. >> 73, >> Sid >> >> >>> Applying hot glue in tiny amounts takes a level of creativity and skill not >>> found with most kit builders. >>> Why risk it? >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by W8ZN
Let's get a list together of safe RTV products for electronics use.
Mike WE0H [hidden email] wrote: > I believe there is lots of non out-gasing RTV's out there. I use it for power dividers all the time. Just smell it, it's pretty easy to tell the difference. > > Terry ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In general, if your "RTV" product smells like acetic acid,
it's corrosive. If it smells like Ben Gay (SP?) back rub, it's not corrosive. The corrosive kind, if applied where it can cure into the air won't be harmful. It's only when it's used in a closed area, like a connector box and can't "air" that it will be corrosive. Trivia: "RTV stands for (R)oom (T)emperature (V)ulcanizing. It cures/ dries by absorbing water ... by "getting wet". (:-) It's "drying / curing can be hastened by laying a wet cloth over / around the stuff, if this is practical. 73! Ken ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Use GE RTV 162. Non-corrosive, electronic grade, UL listed. 73, Redd ---- Ken Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote: > In general, if your "RTV" product smells like acetic acid, > it's corrosive. If it smells like Ben Gay (SP?) back rub, > it's not corrosive. > > The corrosive kind, if applied where it can cure into the > air won't be harmful. It's only when it's used in a closed > area, like a connector box and can't "air" that it will be > corrosive. > > Trivia: "RTV stands for (R)oom (T)emperature (V)ulcanizing. > It cures/ dries by absorbing water ... by "getting wet". (:-) > It's "drying / curing can be hastened by laying a wet cloth > over / around the stuff, if this is practical. > > 73! Ken > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Sid K3SX
I was asked to make this information to the group.
Sid Sid, There is a variant of RTV that is OK on circuit boards. It is made by MG Chemicals specifically for electronics. It is catalog number 1035, and comes in 85ml tubes. We buy it from Allied (www.alliedelec.com), stock number 661-0780. A datasheet is available at http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/1035.html. It is non-corrosive and works very well to seal toroids to a PC board. Please let others know. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Dow Corning make a range, 3140 is one I've used. It's very expensive
compared to the acetic acid bathroom sealant variety. David G3UNA ----- Original Message ----- From: "SidShusterman" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] hot glue K2 toroids? >I was asked to make this information to the group. > Sid > > > Sid, > > There is a variant of RTV that is OK on circuit boards. It is made by MG > Chemicals specifically for electronics. It is catalog number 1035, and > comes > in 85ml tubes. We buy it from Allied (www.alliedelec.com), stock number > 661-0780. A datasheet is available at > http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/1035.html. > > It is non-corrosive and works very well to seal toroids to a PC board. > > Please let others know. > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Sid K3SX
I wonder, would clear candle wax work well? It would tend to keep the moisture out, and be stiff enough to hold the toroid in place, also be easily removable with todays tools. One drip would do. Or would that be drop? --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Dear Dale,
Forgive me if I've missed previous email messages, but I still see no point in securing the toroids with anything else other than solder??? Why can't one just solder them in properly? Do you really need to secure them any other way? A good solder WILL NOT BREAK unless you rip it out by force... 73, James KC2UEE -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Putnam Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:48 PM Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] hot glue K2 toroids? I wonder, would clear candle wax work well? It would tend to keep the moisture out, and be stiff enough to hold the toroid in place, also be easily removable with todays tools. One drip would do. Or would that be drop? --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-c ns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
--... ...-- -.. . .--- .- -- . ...
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Hi James, You are certainly correct, good solder won't break, however, constant viberation, will stress the unsoldered wire above the solder. and even above the tinning. especially if the wire has been slightly nicked, or bent. Less movement of the core, (toroid) would keep that from happening. One wouldn't need to cover the coil, nor use more than one drop, and what would it cause a problem with? Of course I am considering, more than simple walking vibration. Say for an example, carry the filter boards horizontally stored, in a box, even in foam, but set that on the back of... or in the saddle bag of a motorcycle. Run up the road for a couple hundred miles, and see if the viberation had an effect. Or, if the filter is stressed by a 5 G drop. I am speculating that the drop is not on the core... but on the board edge, thereby stressing all the "holding" wire to the ultimate. Is the stress going to cause a problem? Maybe? Maybe not. I don't want to be at the far end of a trip.. mountain run, or on the top of the mountain, after riding 10 miles up a narrow elk trail, next to the cliff that drops 600 feet, to find that the filter doesn't work now. And if one may use one to call for help.. I'd rather be safe, and work with a tiny bit of wax, that blows away under a hair dryer, or hot air gun. That's what I am getting at. I don't like glue, pv, sealer, or hot. or cold... glue has a poor record with me for this purpose. I can't get it outta the way when I need it gone. And it always seems to leave when needed the most. In other words, in this application, the glue has a poor repeatablility record for physical stress testing. Bees wax, or candle wax is exceptionally strong, and if the radio is going to be subjected to High temps, it may not be a real good alternative. However, I don't leave my radios in a closed car in the summer... (closed saddle bag, maybe, on a horse or a motorcycle) but then it won't find high heat there. not enough to melt the wax. One beware tho, don't use Partylite candles. they have a low temp wax. Gets soft in your hand. Not good. Old parafin works great. Thanks for listening, just my way of doing things.. I guess. --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy > From: [hidden email] > To: [hidden email] > CC: [hidden email] > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] hot glue K2 toroids? > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 22:06:22 -0500 > > Dear Dale, > > Forgive me if I've missed previous email messages, but I still see no point > in securing the toroids with anything else other than solder??? > > Why can't one just solder them in properly? Do you really need to secure > them any other way? A good solder WILL NOT BREAK unless you rip it out by > force... > > 73, > James KC2UEE > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Putnam > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:48 PM > Cc: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] hot glue K2 toroids? > > > I wonder, would clear candle wax work well? It would tend to keep the > moisture out, and be stiff enough to hold the toroid in place, also be > easily removable with todays tools. > > One drip would do. Or would that be drop? > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows LiveT Contacts: Organize your contact list. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-c > ns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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