Re: tube amplifiers and polyproplene capacitors

[Richard Haendel]

Those who get sold by high end audio salesmen seem to believe the garbage
they tell you after a while.  I was told once at a high end stereo shop that
I should buy this special speaker wire.  It was stranded copper and each
strand was individually gold plated to avoid corrosion that caused
distortion. What was so special was each wire of the pair had the twists in
opposite directions so that earths magnetic field would not couple into the
wires and distort the audio on its way to the speakers.  The salesman was
very emphatic !!  What else do you want to believe??.  IMHO some people are
gullible and will believe most anything.  Inferred perception and a
convincing salesman can sell most anything. Just my $.02 worth.

Rich W3ACO K2 4023

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Don Wilhelm-3]

Rich and all,

I for one have been 'sold' on high end audio, but I was fortunate to be
initially referred to an audio shop that allowed and encouraged A/B
comprisons in store, and was willing to work with me to get the best
compromise equipment that my budget allowed.  That was over 20 years ago,
and I still deal with this shop even though I could do my comparisons there
and go shopping somewhere else at a slightly lower price - I stick with them
because of their honesty and excllent service both before and after the
sale.  It is there that I found there is a big difference in CD Players,
speakers, turntables and cartridges (I at first did not believe that a
turntable could sound different than another with the same ton arm and
cartridge installed, but I saw it with my eyes and heard it with my ears).
I also learned that it is hard to buy a bad amplifier - just compare the
power and distortion specs, include the features that you want, and all
should be well for medium priced equipment to the top of the line.  Yes, I
have compared my equipment with the best system in the store on an A/B test
in a living room environment studio, and I am pleased with my selections -
it is surpriing what can be done with even a modest budget - and yes, I can
say that tubes sound different, but the audio is not as clean, even with the
best Macintosh amps.

Yes, there is some hype about wires, gold connectors, and other similar
stuff, but my ears cannot hear it,  There is validity to the speaker wire
size, because it must carry the current produced by the amplifier and
present a low impdance coupling to the speakers - so big wire with high
power amps is necessary, and the 'Monster Wire' is flexible while providing
this current handling - but I do not buy into a lot of the 'hype' unless I
can hear the difference - find a really good audio outfit with knowledgable
(engineering level) sales folks, and you may be surprised at what you can
buy in audio for the same price as a 'packaged' system at other places.

73,
Don W3FPR

-----Original Message-----

Those who get sold by high end audio salesmen seem to believe the garbage
they tell you after a while.  I was told once at a high end stereo shop that
I should buy this special speaker wire.  It was stranded copper and each
strand was individually gold plated to avoid corrosion that caused
distortion. What was so special was each wire of the pair had the twists in
opposite directions so that earths magnetic field would not couple into the
wires and distort the audio on its way to the speakers.  The salesman was
very emphatic !!  What else do you want to believe??.  IMHO some people are
gullible and will believe most anything.  Inferred perception and a
convincing salesman can sell most anything. Just my $.02 worth.

Rich W3ACO K2 4023

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/347 - Release Date: 5/24/2006

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/347 - Release Date: 5/24/2006

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Brian Wood-5]

Polypropylene caps are useful for two main things:

1) circuits that rely on repeatable charging/discharging characteristics
(such as analog to digital converters, sample & hold circuits and active
filters), due to their good dielectric absorption properties (i.e., they
don't "re-charge" after being discharged as bad as some others)

and

2) high voltage circuits, due to their high voltage ratings.

They are great replacements for paper caps in boatanchor radios. They are
not as useful in other modern ham applications because of their size. C0G
and NP0 disk ceramics are smaller and do the job nicely. Poly caps also have
a linear, negative temperature coefficient, which makes them good for
temperature compensation in LC circuits.

I don't really know of any reason to use them in audio circuits over
ceramics or bipolar electrolytics (depending on capacitance value needed).

Brian, W0DZ


_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[N2EY]

In a message dated 5/25/06 5:47:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> I for one have been 'sold' on high end audio, but I was fortunate to be
> initially referred to an audio shop that allowed and encouraged A/B
> comprisons in store,

That's a key difference between audiophiles and audiophools - the blind A/B
test. If such tests are not allowed, or are discouraged, you know you're in the
presence of balderdash.

73 de Jim, N2EY

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Jim Brown-10]

On Thu, 25 May 2006 16:35:57 -0600, BMW wrote:

>I don't really know of any reason to use them in audio circuits over
>ceramics or bipolar electrolytics (depending on capacitance value
>needed).

I work in pro audio, and am a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society,
but I am NOT a High Futility Tweak. Several years ago, our local AES
chapter heard an excellent presentation by John Hardy, the designer of a
well respected mic preamp. He spent 20 minutes (at least) talking about
capacitors! There are significant differences in the amplitude linearity
of capacitors of different constructions. That's one reason why some
types are preferred over another.

It takes many specifications to define the characteristics of a product,
and many are not listed on data sheets -- you must learn them the hard
way. Things like temperature coefficient, aging, reliability,
environmental, stray reactances, and, as noted, non-linear distortion.
One of the things I taught my kids is that there is usually far more to
any job than meets the eye, or that is obvious to even the trained
observer.

Re: Loudspeaker wire -- BEEF (that is, big copper) is the only thing that
counts for good audio performance, but TWISTING is critical for good RF
rejection. RF present on the loudspeaker terminals will often be coupled
by the feedback loop around the output stage and detected in a driver
stage. Lots of RFI problems have been solved by replacing glorified zip
cord with twisted pairs of POC (plain, ordinary, copper).

Jim Brown K9YC



_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Darwin, Keith]

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm (with heavy editing from me:-)

... an audio shop that allowed and encouraged A/B comparisons in store
...

It is there that I found there is a big difference in CD Players,
speakers, turntables and cartridges (I at first did not believe that a
turntable could sound different than another with the same ton arm and
cartridge installed, but I saw it with my eyes and heard it with my
ears).

... - but I do not buy into a lot of the 'hype' unless I can hear the
difference -

------------------------
 
Yes, that is it!  Listen.  A/B compare.  Spend money only if you can
hear the difference.  Ignore (completely ignore) the explanations of why
the differences are there.  They are either irrelevant or flat out
wrong.  Wrong explanations lead to myths & superstition.  Go with your
ears.

That also means don't rule out something just because it doesn't seem
like it will work.  I don't care if it is special caps, fancy sprays or
"naturally generated power".  If it produces the results then it
produces the results.  If it doesn't, then it doesn't.  All to often we
can dismiss ideas out of hand because they don't fit our limited
understanding of things (my understanding is always limited to one
degree or another).

- Keith -
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Curt-17]

This sounds like quantum mechanics where your belief system affects the outcome.

k3ey

"Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm (with heavy editing from me:-)

... an audio shop that allowed and encouraged A/B comparisons in store
...

It is there that I found there is a big difference in CD Players,
speakers, turntables and cartridges (I at first did not believe that a
turntable could sound different than another with the same ton arm and
cartridge installed, but I saw it with my eyes and heard it with my
ears).

... - but I do not buy into a lot of the 'hype' unless I can hear the
difference -

------------------------
 
Yes, that is it!  Listen.  A/B compare.  Spend money only if you can
hear the difference.  Ignore (completely ignore) the explanations of why
the differences are there.  They are either irrelevant or flat out
wrong.  Wrong explanations lead to myths & superstition.  Go with your
ears.

That also means don't rule out something just because it doesn't seem
like it will work.  I don't care if it is special caps, fancy sprays or
"naturally generated power".  If it produces the results then it
produces the results.  If it doesn't, then it doesn't.  All to often we
can dismiss ideas out of hand because they don't fit our limited
understanding of things (my understanding is always limited to one
degree or another).

- Keith -
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[daleputnam]

When I had the tv shop, I used to bring out the scope and show folks the difference, if they were so enclined. And.. I suppose you can imagine the reaction when I went shopping, of the salesforce, and the manager when I came through the door with my little Tektronics scope in hand. with a load resistor and ready to not only hear but see the difference.... Circuit City really doesn't like that.....
 
--...   ...--Dale - WC7S in Wy
 
_________________________________________________________________
Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime
http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Thom LaCosta]

On Fri, 26 May 2006, Dale Putnam wrote:

Circuit City really doesn't like that.....

Never shop in a box store and display any tehnical know-how....it scares them.

73,Thom-k3hrn
www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page,Drake Web Ring,
QRP IRC channel, Drake IRC Channel, Elecraft Owners Database
www.tlchost.net/hosting/  ***  Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Keith wrote about audio systems:

Yes, that is it!  Listen.  A/B compare.  Spend money only if you can hear
the difference.  Ignore (completely ignore) the explanations of why the
differences are there.  They are either irrelevant or flat out wrong.  Wrong
explanations lead to myths & superstition.  Go with your ears.

-----------------------------

Don't forget you may be standing in front of a magician. If we believed our
eyes and ears, we'd all be expecting to have all the money we'd ever need
falling out of our ears. Don't all kids learn from favorite uncles that
money falls from their ears?

Being aware of what's likely and what's not is important. Being able to run
meaningful tests under *your* controlled conditions is, I believe, the most
important of all.

Also, notice a key word in my last sentence. It's "believe".

We humans do not instinctively work by the scientific principle. We
understand that much of what we "know", we cannot prove scientifically.  We
jump to conclusions based on bad data. That's why we can be startled by a
strange shadow in a darkened room that resembles an animal or person lurking
there.

It happens in the Ham world too. Look at the number of people who pay money
for a diminutive antenna that plugs into the back of their rig and which is
promised to bring "magic" results. Someone tries it and makes an immediate
contact. Effective antennas produce contacts, this antenna produces a
contact, then obviously it is an effective antenna.

The reason most adults don't expect money to appear from their ears is that
they have sufficient knowledge and experience to understand that's a
phenomenon that occurs only when the favorite uncle is present and when they
aren't really paying attention until the coin magically appears.

Still, we can have a lot of pleasure and excitement making a contact with a
tiny antenna stuck onto the back of our rigs. It doesn't matter that our
signal would be much, much stronger if we had a full size antenna up high.
It's the same pleasure of seeing anything nice we didn't expect actually
happen. The coin appeared from our ear; the other station came back to our
call.

And that leads to another absolutely critical component of our rigs (or
audio systems): the human. We understand that a 10 watt or 100 watt signal
from an Elecraft rig is scientifically identical to a 10 watt or 100 watt
signal from almost any other rig. Those are the scientific facts, but the
human expectation colors and defines the experience. That's why hearing a DX
station replying to our call from a special rig, or seeing a striking
sunset, can be especially pleasurable human experiences.

For me, it's working stations from something I "cobbled together" from a
bunch of parts that produces pleasure that has nothing to do with the
equipment itself, only my personal experience with it.

I cringe when I see an adult who is so excited about a quarter appearing
from his ear that he'll pay someone a $1000 to make it happen. But then I
remind myself that I could have called Jonas, LY10ZZ, in Lithuania on my
cell phone and chatted as long as I liked with him for a few dollars instead
of having a brief CW contact with him using a thousand dollars of Ham gear.

Maybe it isn't about the money after all...

Ron AC7AC

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Let's let this non-radio related thread rest for now to keep list
traffic under control. :-)

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft List Moderator
------
> Keith wrote about audio systems:
>
> Yes, that is it!  Listen.  A/B compare.  Spend money only if you can hear
> the difference.  Ignore (completely ignore) the explanations of why the
> differences are there.  They are either irrelevant or flat out wrong.  Wrong
> explanations lead to myths & superstition.  Go with your ears.
>  
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com