Recomendations on Oscilloscopes

[Doug Person]

I have no formal electronics training. just what I learned along the way
as a ham for 45 years.  I am interesting in learning about and how to
use oscilloscopes.  I would like to learn how to trace and debug digital
as well as analog radio circuits.

I'm have an old Elenco 1251 dual-trace 20mhz.  No idea how well it works
or how well calibrated.  I was thinking of finding something a little
newer and maybe better bandwidth.

Any recommendations on a good used scope?  Any thoughts on any books
that might provide a useful overview of using a scope to debug rf and
digital problems?

Any assistance gratefully appreciated,

73, Doug -- KØDXV


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[Dave, G4AON]

Doug

I would recommend a 100 MHz scope. I have an old Philips one that is
great for HF and 50 MHz use. I'm not sure about books to describe how to
use a scope, there isn't much to using one and there's plenty of
information on the web, see http://www.doctronics.co.uk/scope.htm as an
example.

73 Dave, G4AON
K2 #1892, K1 #1154
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Doug,

Paul Harden N5AN has written good articles on the use of the oscilloscope.
One can be found in text format in the QRP-L archives at
http://home.frognet.net/~mcfadden/wd8rif/archives.htm - I know there are
other places where this info appears, but I don't have handy references at
the moment.

If you are doing nothing but observing RF voltages with your 'scope you
might be able to get by with your 20 MHz 'scope, but I recommend a 100 MHz
scope.

As for buying an oscilloscope, I highly recommend purchasing one from Bob
Garcia.  He is known as 'Mr. Scope' and frequents many of the hamfests in
the Southeast (he lives in GA).  I have recently have had dealings with him
and can say that he is more than fair both in price and his manner of doing
business.  You can email him at mailto:[hidden email] and ask him
what he has available.

To make good use of the 'scope without loading the circuit under test, you
will need some good 10X scope probes.  The probes have a frequency rating
too and should be rated for 100 MHz or higher for use in the HF ham band
region.

Regarding frequency ratings of probes and 'scopes - the rated frequency is
the point where the response drops off by 3 dB, so 100 MHz will provide good
calibrated readings at 1/10th of the frequency rating and is quite usable up
to 1/3 the frequency rating.  In other words, the response of a 100 MHz
'scope will be quite accurate through 10 MHz and reasonably accurate at 30
MHz, but will drop off significantly above 30 MHz.  You will still be able
to use the 'scope up to its frequency limit (and maybe above), but you
should not trust the voltage measurements made with it at those limits (the
waveforms may show some distortion at the limits too).

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I have no formal electronics training. just what I learned along the way
> as a ham for 45 years.  I am interesting in learning about and how to
> use oscilloscopes.  I would like to learn how to trace and debug digital
> as well as analog radio circuits.
>
> I'm have an old Elenco 1251 dual-trace 20mhz.  No idea how well it works
> or how well calibrated.  I was thinking of finding something a little
> newer and maybe better bandwidth.
>
> Any recommendations on a good used scope?  Any thoughts on any books
> that might provide a useful overview of using a scope to debug rf and
> digital problems?
>
> Any assistance gratefully appreciated,
>
> 73, Doug -- KØDXV
>

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[Doug Person]

I'm looking at a Tektronix 2213A Dual Trace 60MHz scope.  Its going for
$150 on ebay.  Its a nice compact unit.  Anyone familiar with this
unit?  I know there were many recommendations to go with 100MHz.  But
most anything in good shape in that range is a little outside my budget.

Any opinions appreciated.

73, Doug -- KØDXV
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[Ron-73]

Doug Person wrote:

> I'm looking at a Tektronix 2213A Dual Trace 60MHz scope.  Its going
> for $150 on ebay.  Its a nice compact unit.  Anyone familiar with this
> unit?  I know there were many recommendations to go with 100MHz.  But
> most anything in good shape in that range is a little outside my budget.
> Any opinions appreciated.
>
> 73, Doug -- KØDXV
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>

That is a fine scope.  I have one.  I also have a 465.  Like the 2213
better.
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[Howard W. Ashcraft]

Everyone has favorites, but the older Tek analog scopes are very solid and a good deal.  If you have the room, you can get amazing performance/cost from 7000 series scopes.  I have a 7854 (400 mhz plus waveform digitizing) and a 7934 (500 Mhz Analog storage)  7000s run from 100mhz to 1Ghz in bandwidth, and, depending upon the plug-ins chosen, you can do just about anything with a 7000 series.  Their primary drawback is size.  Both of my scopes are on carts because they would take up a big chunk of my bench, otherwise.


Tek also made a very nice series of "portable" scopes.  The 100 Mhz 2246 is very nice and readily available used.  It has the added bonus of "smart cursors" to easily measure amplitude and period/frequency with a single button push, and I have found the triggering to be quite good.  The 2400 series, and particularly the 2465s are also nice pieces of equipment, but are more expensive due to their greater bandwidth.

What you "need" really depends on what you "want" and what you are going to do with it.  The higher bandwidth devices are useful if you need to look at abberations in a signal that may be smoothed out in a lower bandwidth scope, but may be unnecessary if you just want to trace a signal through a circuit and measuring changes in amplitude or phase.  Extra bandwidth is never a bad thing, it just costs more, and may not be necessary.

Now to stir up the controversy, I used to have a Tek 465. This is a venerable 100 Mhz scope, but frankly the 2246s that I have had worked better and were much easier to use.  So, I would recommend a scope more recent than the 465/475 series.  But there are lots of these still out there and are very much liked by some. My one experience repairing a 465 may have colored my view.  

Howard W. Ashcraft, Jr. W1WF



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[David Cutter]

One thing I have not seen mentioned so far is the probes that you will need
to use.  The scope's 1:1 normal probe will place a fairly large capacitance
across the device you are measuring and the amount will depend on the
quality of the probe you buy.  If the signals you intend to measure are
fairly large, then it is very well worth while using at least a 10:1 or even
100:1 probe as these put a much smaller capacitance across your signal
source.  That means the scope has to handle a smaller signal.  Original Tek
probes are very expensive and a new one might cost the same as that second
hand scope!  The probes are sometimes powered from a special socket on the
scope, so be careful you buy one appropriate to the scope.

I should also point out that it would be unusual to want to see the
individual sine wave trace; you would normally only see a wide green bar
across the face of the scope representing the amplitude.  This is a peak to
peak waveform and you will need to divide it by 2.828 to get to the rms
value.  The time base setting is much lower than the waveform you are
measuring.  By the way, scopes are rarely better than 5% accurate and do
drift, they are not meant for precision measurement.

Those modern scopes that do the calculation for you save a bit of time and
you might normally need another instrument to measure the rms voltage (again
with a precision probe).  This all depends on the waveform being well within
the -3dB measurement limits.  Of course you can still measure - even beyond
the -3dB limit if you have previously done a calibration with various
signals so you know the performance at higher frequencies.  Just because a
scope is spec'd to only say 20MHz doesn't mean it cannot be used beyond
that: you just have to know what that performance is.

Don't expect to see sinewaves.  If the signal is strong enough, you don't
even have to make contact.  Just laying the probe nearby can get you an
indication and not upset the circuit too much.  You can make *comparative*
measurements like this, ie adjust a control while watching the scope for
peaking purposes.

David
G3UNA



----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard W. Ashcraft" <[hidden email]>
To: "Doug Person" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Recomendations on Oscilloscopes


Everyone has favorites, but the older Tek analog scopes are very solid and a
good deal.  If you have the room, you can get amazing performance/cost from
7000 series scopes.  I have a 7854 (400 mhz plus waveform digitizing) and a
7934 (500 Mhz Analog storage)  7000s run from 100mhz to 1Ghz in bandwidth,
and, depending upon the plug-ins chosen, you can do just about anything with
a 7000 series.  Their primary drawback is size.  Both of my scopes are on
carts because they would take up a big chunk of my bench, otherwise.


Tek also made a very nice series of "portable" scopes.  The 100 Mhz 2246 is
very nice and readily available used.  It has the added bonus of "smart
cursors" to easily measure amplitude and period/frequency with a single
button push, and I have found the triggering to be quite good.  The 2400
series, and particularly the 2465s are also nice pieces of equipment, but
are more expensive due to their greater bandwidth.

What you "need" really depends on what you "want" and what you are going to
do with it.  The higher bandwidth devices are useful if you need to look at
abberations in a signal that may be smoothed out in a lower bandwidth scope,
but may be unnecessary if you just want to trace a signal through a circuit
and measuring changes in amplitude or phase.  Extra bandwidth is never a bad
thing, it just costs more, and may not be necessary.

Now to stir up the controversy, I used to have a Tek 465. This is a
venerable 100 Mhz scope, but frankly the 2246s that I have had worked better
and were much easier to use.  So, I would recommend a scope more recent than
the 465/475 series.  But there are lots of these still out there and are
very much liked by some. My one experience repairing a 465 may have colored
my view.

Howard W. Ashcraft, Jr. W1WF



*****************************
This communication, including any attachments, is confidential and may be
protected by privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient, any use,
dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please
immediately notify the sender by telephone or email, and permanently delete
all copies, electronic or other, you may have.

To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you
that any tax advice contained in this communication (including any
attachments) was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for
the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or
(ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction
or matter addressed herein.

The foregoing applies even if this notice is embedded in a message that is
forwarded or attached.
*****************************

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[wd4lst]

I have used a 465 for many years -Cut my teeth in the Navy with one. They were very fine scopes. The issue is that they used a lot of custom parts that are now made of un-obtanium
as far as I know. A couple of years ago, Tektronix had a $200 trade in offer on their TDS series. At the time, I was repairing guitar amps on the side, so I took the plunge and got a TDS 2012 100 Mhz. Those guys have never lost the art of making a good scope.

-Pete
wd4lst



> Now to stir up the controversy, I used to have a Tek 465. This is a venerable 100 Mhz scope, but frankly the 2246s that I have had worked better and were much easier to use.  So, I would recommend a scope more recent than the 465/475 series.  But there are lots of these still out there and are very much liked by some. My one experience repairing a 465 may have colored my view.  
>
> Howard W. Ashcraft, Jr. W1WF


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[wd4lst]

Doug,
Tektronix has a scope primer called "XYZs of Oscilloscopes"
It can be found on the web at http://tinyurl.com/yx46uv
(That link should take you to the Tektronix website)
Hope this helps,
Pete
wd4lst

>
> From: Doug Person <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2006/11/26 Sun AM 01:39:50 CST
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Recomendations on Oscilloscopes
>
> I have no formal electronics training. just what I learned along the way
> as a ham for 45 years.  I am interesting in learning about and how to
> use oscilloscopes.  I would like to learn how to trace and debug digital
> as well as analog radio circuits.
>
> I'm have an old Elenco 1251 dual-trace 20mhz.  No idea how well it works
> or how well calibrated.  I was thinking of finding something a little
> newer and maybe better bandwidth.
>
> Any recommendations on a good used scope?  Any thoughts on any books
> that might provide a useful overview of using a scope to debug rf and
> digital problems?
>
> Any assistance gratefully appreciated,
>
> 73, Doug -- KØDXV
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

Pete Axson
WD4LST
17901 NE 18th Ave
Citra, FL 32113

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[Sam Morgan-2]

[hidden email] wrote:
> Doug,
> Tektronix has a scope primer called "XYZs of Oscilloscopes"
> It can be found on the web at http://tinyurl.com/yx46uv
> (That link should take you to the Tektronix website)
>
Also their e-learning O-scope tutorials found here
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/tutorials/index_scopes.html%3Fwt%3D465%26link%3D/Measurement/tutorials/index_scopes.html&FrameSet=elearning


--
GB & 73's
KA5OAI
Sam Morgan
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[Neal Campbell K3NC]

One great place to look is www.govliquidation.com.

Its an auction site for the liquidation of government assets. I  
bought a 465B in great shape for 65 bucks. Its a little more involved  
than e-Bay (but only a little). The involvement is that you have to  
arrange for a pickup and shipment of whatever you buy. I think I paid  
50 bucks to have someone go to the site, box it and send it via  
fedex. Its not a big deal as there are lists of companies that do  
this for every site selling goods, you just have to email and get the  
best price on boxing and shipping.

I have bought a couple of things off the site and am very pleased  
with it. Take a look!

Neal - k3nc


On Nov 26, 2006, at 10:38 PM, <[hidden email]>  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Doug,
> Tektronix has a scope primer called "XYZs of Oscilloscopes"
> It can be found on the web at http://tinyurl.com/yx46uv
> (That link should take you to the Tektronix website)
> Hope this helps,
> Pete
> wd4lst
>>
>> From: Doug Person <[hidden email]>
>> Date: 2006/11/26 Sun AM 01:39:50 CST
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Recomendations on Oscilloscopes
>>
>> I have no formal electronics training. just what I learned along  
>> the way
>> as a ham for 45 years.  I am interesting in learning about and how to
>> use oscilloscopes.  I would like to learn how to trace and debug  
>> digital
>> as well as analog radio circuits.
>>
>> I'm have an old Elenco 1251 dual-trace 20mhz.  No idea how well it  
>> works
>> or how well calibrated.  I was thinking of finding something a little
>> newer and maybe better bandwidth.
>>
>> Any recommendations on a good used scope?  Any thoughts on any books
>> that might provide a useful overview of using a scope to debug rf and
>> digital problems?
>>
>> Any assistance gratefully appreciated,
>>
>> 73, Doug -- KØDXV
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>  http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>
> Pete Axson
> WD4LST
> 17901 NE 18th Ave
> Citra, FL 32113
>
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