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Remote Operating Time Sync

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James Bennett

Remote Operating Time Sync

I have a MacBook Pro Retina Display running Sierra 10.12.5 that I use with my KX3 when operating portable. Part of my operating is done with WSJT-X, for JT65 and JT9 modes. This software is very time sync critical - the computer clock needs to be within +- one second accuracy. Here at home on my wireless network connected to our cable company, works great.

However, a recent trip to the southern Philippines as DU8/W6JHB with this equipment was an eye-opener. I completely forgot that the laptop clock would not keep that sort of accuracy without having Internet access. I saw many signals, but WSJT-X decoded nothing at first. Luckily I realized what was happening and was able to access and connect to the WiFi network at the resort we were staying at. This connection provided the accuracy the software needed and all was good.

But - when we return on our next "vacation" we may not have the luxury of a resort having WiFi for it's guests. So, I'm looking for some sort of device that I can use to keep the laptop clock accurate. Internet access would be a bonus, but of most importance is that internal clock.

Any suggestions? By the way, a mega-buck device is pretty much out of the question. Just ask my wife... :-)

73, Jim

Jim Bennett / W6JHB
Folsom, CA

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ng7m

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

Tune in to wwv and synchronize your clock. The jt modes will be fine even if you are a second or two off. Or get a gps and synch to the gps clock via nema. Use google and search on all your options. You could setup nptd on your mac and use a pps signal from a gps too. Max Ng7m

--
Matthew George
801-560-8754

> On Jun 15, 2017, at 12:46 PM, James Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have a MacBook Pro Retina Display running Sierra 10.12.5 that I use with my KX3 when operating portable. Part of my operating is done with WSJT-X, for JT65 and JT9 modes. This software is very time sync critical - the computer clock needs to be within +- one second accuracy. Here at home on my wireless network connected to our cable company, works great.
>
> However, a recent trip to the southern Philippines as DU8/W6JHB with this equipment was an eye-opener. I completely forgot that the laptop clock would not keep that sort of accuracy without having Internet access. I saw many signals, but WSJT-X decoded nothing at first. Luckily I realized what was happening and was able to access and connect to the WiFi network at the resort we were staying at. This connection provided the accuracy the software needed and all was good.
>
> But - when we return on our next "vacation" we may not have the luxury of a resort having WiFi for it's guests. So, I'm looking for some sort of device that I can use to keep the laptop clock accurate. Internet access would be a bonus, but of most importance is that internal clock.
>
> Any suggestions? By the way, a mega-buck device is pretty much out of the question. Just ask my wife... :-)
>
> 73, Jim
>
> Jim Bennett / W6JHB
> Folsom, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Kevin - K4VD

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

I have found myself in this situation. WSJT-X shows absolute time
differences between your clock and remote stations. I takes me a little
fiddling but I found I can adjust my computer clock manually to get the
WSJT-X reported time differences down to less than a second. No Internet or
external devices needed.

Not sure about Apple products. In Windows 10 you need to go to additional
date, time, & regional settings to get to where you can adjust the seconds.

I hope there's a helpful clue in this.

73,
Kev K4VD

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Matthew George <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Tune in to wwv and synchronize your clock. The jt modes will be fine even
> if you are a second or two off. Or get a gps and synch to the gps clock
> via nema. Use google and search on all your options. You could setup nptd
> on your mac and use a pps signal from a gps too. Max Ng7m
>
> --
> Matthew George
> 801-560-8754
>
> > On Jun 15, 2017, at 12:46 PM, James Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I have a MacBook Pro Retina Display running Sierra 10.12.5 that I use
> with my KX3 when operating portable. Part of my operating is done with
> WSJT-X, for JT65 and JT9 modes. This software is very time sync critical -
> the computer clock needs to be within +- one second accuracy. Here at home
> on my wireless network connected to our cable company, works great.
> >
> > However, a recent trip to the southern Philippines as DU8/W6JHB with
> this equipment was an eye-opener. I completely forgot that the laptop clock
> would not keep that sort of accuracy without having Internet access. I saw
> many signals, but WSJT-X decoded nothing at first. Luckily I realized what
> was happening and was able to access and connect to the WiFi network at the
> resort we were staying at. This connection provided the accuracy the
> software needed and all was good.
> >
> > But - when we return on our next "vacation" we may not have the luxury
> of a resort having WiFi for it's guests. So, I'm looking for some sort of
> device that I can use to keep the laptop clock accurate. Internet access
> would be a bonus, but of most importance is that internal clock.
> >
> > Any suggestions? By the way, a mega-buck device is pretty much out of
> the question. Just ask my wife... :-)
> >
> > 73, Jim
> >
> > Jim Bennett / W6JHB
> > Folsom, CA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> >
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by ng7m

On Thu,6/15/2017 11:59 AM, Matthew George wrote:
> The jt modes will be fine even if you are a second or two off.

Two seconds is stretching it. I've seen very strong JT65 signals that
don't decode with a time error of 1.7 sec!

73, Jim K9YC

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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

Makes sense. Originally written for EME, that transit time is about 2.7
seconds if my math is close... 2*250K miles/(186k/s)... plus some
processing moments, a few ms for amp relays. A larger window would be
problematic.

Rick wa6nhc/7

On 6/15/2017 12:28 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Thu,6/15/2017 11:59 AM, Matthew George wrote:
>> The jt modes will be fine even if you are a second or two off.
>
> Two seconds is stretching it. I've seen very strong JT65 signals that
> don't decode with a time error of 1.7 sec!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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James Bennett

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

Folks, thanks for the ideas! Tethering to my iPhone would work IF there was cell service. In many parts of Mindanao where we may go, the cell service is either spotty or nonexistent, so I would not want to rely on that. Also, WWV/WWVB/WWVH reception is not guaranteed. When I was there in April, I heard absolutely ZERO signals on CW on any of the ham bands - very strange! But when I moved to the JT-x frequencies, I got signals. So, I’m thinking my best bet would be to go with some sort of GPS/NTP arrangement. To that end, I’ve ordered a copy of the ARRL Arduino book one of you pointed out to me. Worth a shot. I haven’t used one of the Arduino units yet, but my WSJT-X operating here at home in Folsom is 100% powered by a Raspberry Pi 3, so I am familar with using the little micro’s.

Sounds like a fun indoor construction project for the upcoming ugly-hot summer months in northern CA!

73, Jim / W6JHB

Jim Bennett
Folsom, CA

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Josh Fiden

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

I just set this up at K6QXY's place and it worked great. Accuracy is much better than what's required for JT65. We got a GlobalSat BR-355-S4 USB GPS receiver ($30) and a $20 software package from visualgps.net for Windows. I don't know of a MacOS version, but haven't looked.

I expected to have to mount the "puck" receiver outside, but it saw many satellites and worked fine just sitting on a table indoors.

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:51 PM, James Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Folks, thanks for the ideas! Tethering to my iPhone would work IF there was cell service. In many parts of Mindanao where we may go, the cell service is either spotty or nonexistent, so I would not want to rely on that. Also, WWV/WWVB/WWVH reception is not guaranteed. When I was there in April, I heard absolutely ZERO signals on CW on any of the ham bands - very strange! But when I moved to the JT-x frequencies, I got signals. So, I’m thinking my best bet would be to go with some sort of GPS/NTP arrangement. To that end, I’ve ordered a copy of the ARRL Arduino book one of you pointed out to me. Worth a shot. I haven’t used one of the Arduino units yet, but my WSJT-X operating here at home in Folsom is 100% powered by a Raspberry Pi 3, so I am familar with using the little micro’s.
>
> Sounds like a fun indoor construction project for the upcoming ugly-hot summer months in northern CA!
>
> 73, Jim / W6JHB
>
> Jim Bennett
> Folsom, CA
>
>
>
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Peter Pauly

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

I bought this for getting the time from GPS satelites while operating
remote...it's only about an inch wide and has a time display:

https://www.tindie.com/products/PhoenixCNC/olediuno-gps-cube/

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Josh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just set this up at K6QXY's place and it worked great. Accuracy is much
> better than what's required for JT65. We got a GlobalSat BR-355-S4 USB GPS
> receiver ($30) and a $20 software package from visualgps.net for Windows.
> I don't know of a MacOS version, but haven't looked.
>
> I expected to have to mount the "puck" receiver outside, but it saw many
> satellites and worked fine just sitting on a table indoors.
>
> 73,
> Josh W6XU
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> > On Jun 15, 2017, at 1:51 PM, James Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Folks, thanks for the ideas! Tethering to my iPhone would work IF there
> was cell service. In many parts of Mindanao where we may go, the cell
> service is either spotty or nonexistent, so I would not want to rely on
> that. Also, WWV/WWVB/WWVH reception is not guaranteed. When I was there in
> April, I heard absolutely ZERO signals on CW on any of the ham bands - very
> strange! But when I moved to the JT-x frequencies, I got signals. So, I’m
> thinking my best bet would be to go with some sort of GPS/NTP arrangement.
> To that end, I’ve ordered a copy of the ARRL Arduino book one of you
> pointed out to me. Worth a shot. I haven’t used one of the Arduino units
> yet, but my WSJT-X operating here at home in Folsom is 100% powered by a
> Raspberry Pi 3, so I am familar with using the little micro’s.
> >
> > Sounds like a fun indoor construction project for the upcoming ugly-hot
> summer months in northern CA!
> >
> > 73, Jim / W6JHB
> >
> > Jim Bennett
> > Folsom, CA
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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ng7m

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim, it's all a matter of how long the JT software on the receive side /
transmit side is written implemented. It's simply a window where your
software is listening, there is nothing going on then then when to start
listening and when to stop listening / when to start transmitting and when
to stop transmitting.. The point I was trying to make was that in a pinch,
you should be able to use WWB and manually synch your clock within a
second. All is not lost if you don't have a NTP implementation with
internet access. Getting your clock with-in 1 second of WWB is not rocket
science if you can hear the signal, and there are other HF transmitted time
sources than WWB for other parts of the world. Plus most OS
implementations of NTP will only sync your clock on a weekly basis and
depending on how bad your PC clock is in parts per million PPM, a week of
no synch could have you off by many seconds if not by a minutes. Google
would be a good place to start if you are looking of manual ways to sync
your clock... The Elecraft reflector is not the first place I would start,
but it is a way to generate a bunch of email messages and get a bunch of
opinions, there is no question about that. :)

The JT modes are so unbelievably slow and painful, you can multitask and
watch a baseball game at the same time you are working stations every 5
minutes (JT mode water boarding at 5 minutes per Q in the best scenario).
You could do a SO8R setup and still have time to drink a cup a coffee while
you are keeping track of everytihng. ;) With all time you have between TX
and RX, someone might want to look (google it up?) at the spec and see what
the published window is suppose to be. And yes, of course if one station
is 2 seconds fast and another station is 2 seconds slow, you might have a
problem because the software on both ends misses the start or finish where
each station's clock is off in opposite directions. I'm sure there are
whole JT mode related groups where you can spend hours and hours talking
about how accurate your clock should be. It's a total yawner mode, but
hey, it's still fun at times.. I'll admit to that. ;)

Max NG7M

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Thu,6/15/2017 11:59 AM, Matthew George wrote:
>
>> The jt modes will be fine even if you are a second or two off.
>>
>
> Two seconds is stretching it. I've seen very strong JT65 signals that
> don't decode with a time error of 1.7 sec!
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
M. George
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ng7m

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by ng7m

I should have mentioned that there is an obvious way to sync your clock for
JT mode operation... per the spec:

The JT65 protocol states that a transmission will begin at precisely 1
second into a new minute and end 46.811 seconds later.

So if you have no time source and if you can't hear WWV and you have no
internet... just sync up with the other signals you hear. Get your clock
setting routine ready to roll for 1 second past the current minute and wait
for the beginning of a melee of signals / JT transmit cycle. It might take
you a few tries, but you will be good to go. It certainly doesn't need to
be perfect or in the millisecond time frame. Use your ear and sync your
clock to one second past the current minute.

On another topic... for a couple years now I have hosted and run a Stratum
1 ntp time server (as many others around the globe have, this is nothing
new). If you want to point to a dedicated stratum 1 NTP server that is GPS
synchronized (and runs in the low nano (yes it's in the low nano range)
second accuracy range), point your NTP configuration / Windows time sync
configuration to: time.nc7j.com (via NTP over the internet, the best you
will do is usually mid micro second accuracy if you have a fairly low ping
time to the source... I'm in Syracuse Utah with my host IP out of Salt Lake
City for this ntp server)

You can see the status of my NTP server here: http://www.pool.ntp.org/
scores/time.nc7j.com

If you are in the US, you will get a much more accurate consistent sync
from time.nc7j.com than you would from other pooled sources.

Max NG7M

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Matthew George <[hidden email]
> wrote:

Clay Autery

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Personally, I think you'd be better served using Raspberry Pi approach.
See the website I put down in my other post... Nah, here it is
again... Do yourself a favor and read this guy's site...

http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G

On 6/15/2017 3:51 PM, James Bennett wrote:
> So, I’m thinking my best bet would be to go with some sort of GPS/NTP arrangement. To that end, I’ve ordered a copy of the ARRL Arduino book one of you pointed out to me.

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Clay Autery

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by Peter Pauly

Interesting, but don't see a way to feed/sync time with either a
computer or the radio...

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G

(318) 518-1389

On 6/15/2017 4:22 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:
> I bought this for getting the time from GPS satelites while operating
> remote...it's only about an inch wide and has a time display:
>
> https://www.tindie.com/products/PhoenixCNC/olediuno-gps-cube/
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Hi.

WSJT-X is not that critical, you only need to be within a second (or two
at most) of UTC, & you can easily get well within +- 1 second with mk 1
finger and a call to the speaking clock, or listening to a broadcast
time signal. Modern PC's don't drift that significantly over a few
hours (unless they have other problems) so that should be more than good
enough.

NTP sync'ing via mobile internet though possible, is often less than
great if it does work, some carriers block the use of that sort of
thing But if there is no other choice, needs must. But, rather than
use one specific time source (time.apple.com) Try using
pool.ntp.org or north-america.pool.ntp.org if you are in the US
etc. (http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/ Has lots of good information.)

That's a collection of independent time servers and the load is shared
between them, so they don’t get saturated like services like Apple (or
Microsoft) often suffer, providing a poor service as a result. You may
find your mobile carrier has a NTP server you could use, but finding out
about it might be a struggle.

The phone's own time is fairly rigidly controlled, so just watching the
clock on that counting up to a minute, while finger is poised to accept
the next minutes time into the PC is also plenty good enough for the JT
modes.

Other solutions, depending on the accuracy wanted, revolve around the
use of a GPS receiver connected to the computer, and some time syncing
software that can use that. There are many such programs for MS and
Linux, I don't know about Apple stuff, but Mac's run a highly customised
version of BSD, and there are similar programs for that OS, so...
(Note, that they are not for the feint of heart to get installed
correctly due to the permissions needed.)

Any of those, you should get within a few ms of UTC easily. Using a
specialist "timing" GPS receivers, and software that can use the PPS
signal (NTPD for example on 'nix, and Meinberg on Windows) to
continually monitor and correct the computers time, then you can get
within single figure microseconds of UTC (Using a real serial or
parallel port, not USB based.) But that’s mega overkill for any of the
JT modes, but does have it's uses in propagation research and monitoring.

Lastly, don't get overly concerned about it all, else you'll be signing
up for the Time Nuts mailing list!
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

73.
Dave G0WBX.

On 16/06/17 00:48, [hidden email] wrote:

> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Remote Operating Time Sync
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Can you get internet by tethering to your phone? If so, the computer should sync with NTP pretty quickly, then hold to within a second while you are operating.
>
> You might be able to force a sync by opening the Date & Time control panel in System Preferences. MacOS uses NTP by default. If that doesn?t work, I?d unlock the panel, uncheck ?Set date and time automatically?, then recheck it.
>
> If you are of the shell persuasion, this will do the trick.
>
> sudo ntpdate -u time.apple.com
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Jim.

As you have experience with a Pi, with the addition of a GPS RX, you can
make yourself a very good GPSD NTP server using that. Then, just hook
that to the PC(s) that need time sync, by LAN or portable WiFi access point.

http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html has all you need to
know. Thanks to Dave GM8ARV

73.

Dave G0WBX

On 16/06/17 00:48, [hidden email] wrote:

> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Remote Operating Time Sync
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Folks, thanks for the ideas! Tethering to my iPhone would work IF there was cell service. In many parts of Mindanao where we may go, the cell service is either spotty or nonexistent, so I would not want to rely on that. Also, WWV/WWVB/WWVH reception is not guaranteed. When I was there in April, I heard absolutely ZERO signals on CW on any of the ham bands - very strange! But when I moved to the JT-x frequencies, I got signals. So, I?m thinking my best bet would be to go with some sort of GPS/NTP arrangement. To that end, I?ve ordered a copy of the ARRL Arduino book one of you pointed out to me. Worth a shot. I haven?t used one of the Arduino units yet, but my WSJT-X operating here at home in Folsom is 100% powered by a Raspberry Pi 3, so I am familar with using the little micro?s.
>
> Sounds like a fun indoor construction project for the upcoming ugly-hot summer months in northern CA!
>
> 73, Jim / W6JHB
>
> Jim Bennett
> Folsom, CA

Clay Autery

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Give in to the dark side... you know it will feel so good to KNOW your
frequency is accurate to sub-sub-sub Hertz level, your time reference is
sub-nanosecond, and every clock in your life are all the same within a
microsecond.

LOL!!!

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G

On 6/16/2017 5:25 AM, Dave B via Elecraft wrote:
> Lastly, don't get overly concerned about it all, else you'll be signing
> up for the Time Nuts mailing list!
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

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James Bennett

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

Excellent!!!! While the ARRL Arduino project may also work, I’m a lot more familiar with the RPi, as I have a model 3 running here at home for my data QSOs with the KX3. As I mentioned in my original post, the need is for something I can take with me out in the field, so I’d also need to scrounge up a way to power the RPi from either 220vac (standard in the Philippines) or a 13.8vdc supply (standard on my high sierra camping trips!). When I get some time I’ll look at that web site in more detail - a cursory glance looked great.

Tnx, Jim

Jim Bennett / W6JHB
Folsom, CA

> On Jun 15, 2017, at 7:17 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Personally, I think you'd be better served using Raspberry Pi approach.
> See the website I put down in my other post... Nah, here it is
> again... Do yourself a favor and read this guy's site...
>
> http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/Raspberry-Pi-NTP.html
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
>
> On 6/15/2017 3:51 PM, James Bennett wrote:
>> So, I’m thinking my best bet would be to go with some sort of GPS/NTP arrangement. To that end, I’ve ordered a copy of the ARRL Arduino book one of you pointed out to me.
>
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

Administrator

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Let's wind this down now and end the thread.

Lots of good info, but its way exceeding the OT posting limit of 5-10. PLEASE
self-moderate on threads as they get longer and take extended discussions
off-list to direct email after 5-10 posts to relieve email overload for others.

73,
Eric
Mooderator etc.
/elecraft.com/

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Edward R Cole

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:36:00 -0400
From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Remote Operating Time Sync
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8

Why is accurate time important with these modes?

John KK9A
------------------
I know Eric moderated this topic so I will be brief, but all comments
so far danced around the reason you need accurate time for WSJT modes.
These are synchronous digital modes to both stations computers need
to know when the start of the message begins.

I use a simple cheap GPS with USB dongle plugged directly into my
computer and run BktTimeSync by IZ2BKT. You can choose either NTP
time servers or take the time from the GPS without needing internet connection.

Write me off list for details.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Because some modes start a transmission on a UTC minute boundary, +- a
second(ish)

The RX software records for a fixed length of time, then examines the
recording to extract the data.

If a transmission starts late or early by too much, the data wont be
decoded.

73.

Dave G0WBX.

On 17/06/17 15:34, [hidden email] wrote:
> Subject: [Elecraft] Remote Operating Time Sync
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>
> Why is accurate time important with these modes?
>
> John KK9A

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Remote Operating Time Sync

In reply to this post by James Bennett

Really?

Remote operating (as in remote from civilization) is a common usage for
a lot of Elecrafters, so it's highly relevant.

There are subjects way more off topic that run on this list, often for
days/weeks. You don't moderate them it seems.

73

Dave G0WBX.

On 17/06/17 15:34, [hidden email] wrote:

> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Remote Operating Time Sync
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Let's wind this down now and end the thread.
>
> Lots of good info, but its way exceeding the OT posting limit of 5-10. PLEASE
> self-moderate on threads as they get longer and take extended discussions
> off-list to direct email after 5-10 posts to relieve email overload for others.
>
> 73,
> Eric
> Mooderator etc.
> /elecraft.com/