SDR-IF and I/Q questions

[Richard Fjeld]

This is the new subject title, and needs some background, so it will be lengthy this time.

Some of us use SDR-IF, and the new KX3 will use SDR-I/Q methods for connecting to a computer  running SDR software and seeing the results on a monitor. (The SDR-IF users must provide a SDR-IF receiver to bring out the I/Q leads. It is to be assumed that the SDR-IF receiver is functioning correctly.)  With both types,  I/Q leads are brought to a computer. (If you are wondering, I am on the list for a KX3)

So the computer AND THE SOFTWARE are the center of attraction here. This is where great things may happen. (Emphasis on 'may')

Some of us are at different experience levels, but I think we all would have, and still would, appreciate help to reach satisfaction.  The reflector is the place for this. The real question is; Should this be on a dedicated thread?  When I read the KX3 was going to be SDR capable, I wondered if Elecraft realized what it was getting into for the reflector?

IMHO, The weak link in this SDR thing is the computer and software. PSDR-IF has great control features, but when I compare it to HDSDR, the latter does a great job of displaying the signals and is very sensitive. PSDR-IF looks at both directions in spectrum, so far, I can only get HDSDR to look upward in spectrum.

We can't get rid of the mirrored images in PSDR-IF.  ('WE' includes a friend who still owns 3 of 6 Flex radios he has owned, and 2 of 4 SDR-IF receivers. He is no beginner to SDR.)

My thanks to all who responded. Can't take the space to recap everything, but Sebastian suggested mirrored images are due to ground loops. It has been long enough that I can't remember if I checked that, and I will.  However, why just PSDR-IF and not HDSDR that is affected?  A ground loop should affect both. Still, it is worth checking out.  

Basically, I'm disappointed with the software. I don't mind installing and setting some options for my type of equipment, but from there-on I expect it to function conveniently and nearly as well as a P3.

The question for today is; have any Elecraft users achieved that goal with a computerized pan-adapter? And if so, with what software?  And if so, do you use a USB to Serial, or straight Serial?


Thanks, from now on it will be shorter.

Richard Fjeld, n0ce
[hidden email]
I'd rather be learning.


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[John Ragle]

      Just a short, curmudgeonly, comment from one who has used many
(almost all) of the extant SDR software packages...

     These all seem to be excellent examples of "software-gone-wild."
Apparently the authors received requests from various sources, and in an
attempt to include something for everyone, they have proceeded to
include something for everyone.

     The computers are not the weak link -- almost every recent computer
will provide +/- 192 kHz of spectral width if equipped with the
appropriate fast stereo sound card. The problem is that the software
packages are horribly cluttered, non-resizeable, collections that do not
take advantage of, e.g., modern Windows capability, in short, BAD
software. The reason is not hard to find...it is historical. At some
point, SDR software authors need to break free of these efforts, stop
patching and grafting onto earlier efforts, and proceed to write
something new, clean, and utilitarian.

John Ragle -- W1ZI

=====

On 11/8/2011 3:36 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
> IMHO, The weak link in this SDR thing is the computer and software.

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[Tony Estep]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]>wrote:

> ...Some of us use SDR-IF.......

=============

Richard, I assume you know about the Google group for PSDR-IF:

http://code.google.com/p/powersdr-if-stage/issues/list

You may get some helpful info there.

The guys who did the conversion of PSDR to get it to work with IF output
can't be blamed for problems with PSDR 's performance.They just dealt with
interfacing issues. The provenance of PSDR is complicated, and it has
accumulated a lot of commentary over its life.

But there are many SDR programs that can be used in its stead. If the KX3
puts out baseband I-Q, users may choose for themselves what to do with
those signals. The Softrock Yahoo group has a wealth of information about
available SDR software.

There's no reason for Elecraft to commit resources to trying to support any
particular piece of software or to write their own, any more than they do
with logging, digital, or interface programs.

73,
Tony KT0NY


Tony KT0NY



http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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[Tony Estep]

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]>wrote:

> ...Some of us use SDR-IF.......

=============

Richard, I assume you know about the Google group for PSDR-IF:

http://code.google.com/p/powersdr-if-stage/issues/list

You may get some helpful info there.

The guys who did the conversion of PSDR to get it to work with IF output
can't be blamed for problems with PSDR 's performance.They just dealt with
interfacing issues. The provenance of PSDR is complicated, and it has
accumulated a lot of commentary over its life.

But there are many SDR programs that can be used in its stead. If the KX3
puts out baseband I-Q, users may choose for themselves what to do with
those signals. The Softrock Yahoo group has a wealth of information about
available SDR software.

There's no reason for Elecraft to commit resources to trying to support any
particular piece of software or to write their own, any more than they do
with logging, digital, or interface programs.

73,
Tony KT0NY


Tony KT0NY



http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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[ab2tc]

Hi,

Many (most?) users of LP-Pan have switched from PSDR-IF to NaP3. Here:

http://www.telepostinc.com/NaP3.html

This software is much easier to set up and has most of the unuseable features in PSDR removed. It provides audio (two receivers) but does not yet support the VAC (which is only needed if you need to feed audio to another program). Some people are complaining about images with this program, too. I only have an occasional problem and exiting and restating the program always fixes it. The developer is very responsive and actively working on improvements.

AB2TC - Knut
\

Tony Estep wrote

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Richard Fjeld <[hidden email]>wrote:

> ...Some of us use SDR-IF.......

=============

Richard, I assume you know about the Google group for PSDR-IF:

http://code.google.com/p/powersdr-if-stage/issues/list

You may get some helpful info there.

The guys who did the conversion of PSDR to get it to work with IF output
can't be blamed for problems with PSDR 's performance.They just dealt with
interfacing issues. The provenance of PSDR is complicated, and it has
accumulated a lot of commentary over its life.

<snip>

[Mike Schwendeman]

Dick and the Elecraft group;

I embrace the new KX3, as it appears to be SDR!  (I LIKE the SDR stuff,
as I have had several of the Flex-Radio products, a couple of Tony
Park's "Softrock-40" radios and an LP-Pan as well as a Cross Country
Wireless SDR.)  In almost all cases, I have been able to use the
PowerSDR application, my fave.

I am on the waiting list for the new KX-3.  Aside from the form factor,
the fact that it has the I/Q outputs is a very attractive draw for me!

My "plan" is to operate the KX-3 as-is, but yet have the ability to use
PowerSDR or similar app, so I can view all of the several displays that
are possible with PowerSDR on an as-desired basis.  -In other words, I
will have the "advantage" of being able to have the "visual eye candy"
that PowerSDR or other apps can offer, IF and WHEN I want!

It is my HOPE to be able to operate a display app from one of my Mac
computers, using an emulation program that runs Windows XP, SP3.  (While
I do have Windows computers, my main ones are all Mac, just for the ease
of operation.  So, while running the KX-3, I could bring up XP in
emulation to view the panoramic or other display.)

On 7/22/64 1:59 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
>
> Some of us are at different experience levels, but I think we all would have, and still would, appreciate help to reach satisfaction.  The reflector is the place for this. The real question is; Should this be on a dedicated thread?  When I read the KX3 was going to be SDR capable, I wondered if Elecraft realized what it was getting into for the reflector?

As I had mentioned to Dick, the fact that the KX3 appears to be of the
software-defined design, the good folks and followers of the extremely
fine Elecraft products will be somewhat forced to embrace "things SDR."  
(The term, "...Kicking and fighting... dragged into the twenty-first
century..." do not apply here, as I think the followers of "things
Elecraft" are capable folks!)

As such, the SDR, the I/Q and so on COULD either be embraced and used;
-It will be like a consumer that buys a new TV, and finds that it has
something called an HDMI port.  The course of action will be to (1) use
the HDMI port, or (2) ignore it.  Either will be OK, of course.  But, if
the HDMI is utilized, the consumer will have a possibly better
experience.  I believe that the same might apply to this new-fangled I/Q
output scheme that the KX3 seems to have.
>
> IMHO, The weak link in this SDR thing is the computer and software. PSDR-IF has great control features...  ...We can't get rid of the mirrored images in PSDR-IF.  ('WE' includes a friend who still owns 3 of 6 Flex radios he has owned, and 2 of 4 SDR-IF receivers. He is no beginner to SDR.)

I agree!  (I just might be that fellow that has had the mess of Flex
units...)  The issue of the MIRRORED IMAGES that Dick and I have seen is
truly a puzzle.  A puzzle that has a solution, to be sure, but we are
missing the resolution.

The really interesting thing is that other apps, such as WinRad and
HDSDR seem to be able to "automatically" cure the mirror image issue.

I guess the point of all this is to congratulate Dick for bringing this
topic up.  And to gently tip my (our) hand to expose the problems that
we see.  Somehow, the products from Flex do not have this mirror image
issue; -It is only when we use an SDR to view a radio's IF, using an
outboard as the SDR, to derive the needed I/Q signals.  (Might ISOLATION
TRANSFORMERS help? -Haven't tried!)

It is my HOPE that the KX3 will behave as we'd like, and allow us the
luxury of the computer derived magic.  I am optimistic, as the KX3 has
the SDR internal; All one would have to do is apply this stereo AUDIO
signal to a computer's LINE IN, or to a USB-based sound card, then run
an app to do the magic.

Now, all we need is a DELIVERY DATE for the KX3!

73, all!    -Mike-    KØJTA
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Richard,

I believe you are mixing two things (given the last paragraph of your post).
The SDR software application has no connection with the serial or USB
connection to the transceiver - the I/Q outputs are fed to the soundcard
and those alone can provide a panadapter type display with no serial
connection at all.

The "rub" comes in when the users also want the frequency accurately
displayed on the panadapter display and want to "click-to-QSY" or
'click-to-transmit" or do any other type of rig control from the
computer keyboard.  That is where the serial port connection comes into
play.

The authors of "SDR" applications fall prey to a variety of requests for
rig control based on the display - the only one that seems to have not
fallen prey to those requests is Rocky which does not have all those
"bells and whistles".

So IMHO, if you want a KISS panadapter display, use Rocky, but if you
want more extended rig control, get involved with the crowd that is
continually asking the authors for additional functions or changes to
the functions and make your own requests to satisfy your particular
wants and needs.  There is a "new kid on the block" on the LP-Pan
reflector which targets the K3 functions (the author has a K3 and
develops for the functions he particularly desires -- it should work
nicely with the KX3 as well) - that newest application is NaP3, and you
can get in on the beta. comments too - perhaps some of your desires will
be accepted.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/8/2011 3:36 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
> Basically, I'm disappointed with the software. I don't mind installing and setting some options for my type of equipment, but from there-on I expect it to function conveniently and nearly as well as a P3.
>
> The question for today is; have any Elecraft users achieved that goal with a computerized pan-adapter? And if so, with what software?  And if so, do you use a USB to Serial, or straight Serial?
>
>
>
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[Tony Estep]

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> .... if you want a KISS panadapter display, use Rocky, but if you
> want more extended rig control, get involved with the crowd that is
> continually asking the authors for additional functions...

==========
Somewhere along the line there may be a third kind of SDR software: a
program that displays a nice panadapter and provides solid CAT control for
2 VFOs, but nothing else. In other words, the routines devoted to signal
processing, filtering, etc. would be left out, and those functions would be
left to specialized computing functionality inside the radio, as is done
with the KX3. It will be cool if the arrival of the KX3 provides the
motivation for some brave soul (or group) to gut-rehab one of the
open-source programs such as PSDR so that it fits this description.

Benefits would include a much reduced CPU load and elimination of latency
problems. The most important benefit, however, would be that cutting out
the massive code bloat might make it possible for somebody to actually get
a handle on the mysterious interdependencies and internal conflicts inside
the code that cause bugs: disappearing config files, unexplained shutdowns,
loss of functionality, etc. The traditional excuse for these phenomena is
to blame the OS, the computer, or the user, but we all know better. The
reality is that when you have a huge, open-ended project, with rubbery
design specs, with many hands contributing independently, partly
object-oriented and partly not, partly written in native code and partly in
interpreted code, partly tested and partly not, you are going to have
problems. A smaller piece of code with clear design objectives, unity of
purpose, unity of design and coding standards, and clearly enunciated
testing checkpoints, would be a really cool thing for the next generation
of the ham station hardware/software combo.

73, Tony KT0NY


--
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[Ken Chandler]

Don et al
Don't think it's mentioned on the forum, but does any of the logging software like wintest etc, interconnect freely with naP3 beta!!

Ken..G0ORH

Sent from my iPhone


     


On 9 Nov 2011, at 23:51, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Richard,
>
> I believe you are mixing two things (given the last paragraph of your post).
> The SDR software application has no connection with the serial or USB
> connection to the transceiver - the I/Q outputs are fed to the soundcard
> and those alone can provide a panadapter type display with no serial
> connection at all.
>
> The "rub" comes in when the users also want the frequency accurately
> displayed on the panadapter display and want to "click-to-QSY" or
> 'click-to-transmit" or do any other type of rig control from the
> computer keyboard.  That is where the serial port connection comes into
> play.
>
> The authors of "SDR" applications fall prey to a variety of requests for
> rig control based on the display - the only one that seems to have not
> fallen prey to those requests is Rocky which does not have all those
> "bells and whistles".
>
> So IMHO, if you want a KISS panadapter display, use Rocky, but if you
> want more extended rig control, get involved with the crowd that is
> continually asking the authors for additional functions or changes to
> the functions and make your own requests to satisfy your particular
> wants and needs.  There is a "new kid on the block" on the LP-Pan
> reflector which targets the K3 functions (the author has a K3 and
> develops for the functions he particularly desires -- it should work
> nicely with the KX3 as well) - that newest application is NaP3, and you
> can get in on the beta. comments too - perhaps some of your desires will
> be accepted.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 11/8/2011 3:36 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote:
>> Basically, I'm disappointed with the software. I don't mind installing and setting some options for my type of equipment, but from there-on I expect it to function conveniently and nearly as well as a P3.
>>
>> The question for today is; have any Elecraft users achieved that goal with a computerized pan-adapter? And if so, with what software?  And if so, do you use a USB to Serial, or straight Serial?
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Ken,

Yes, and no, I don't believe NaP3 does logging internally, but adding
LP-Bridge to provide virtual serial ports (which emulate the K3 to the
application)  can allow loggers, CW Skimmer, etc. to connect through a
single physical serial port (NaP3 would also connect through
LP-Bridge).  No difference in that respect than using other SDR
applications such as PSDR-IF.

73,
Don W3FPR


On 11/10/2011 2:48 AM, Ken Chandler wrote:
> Don et al
> Don't think it's mentioned on the forum, but does any of the logging software like wintest etc, interconnect freely with naP3 beta!!
>
>
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