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SKN 2012

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Dave Johnson

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

Matt

I use Airmail with my K3 and an SCS Pactor modem to connect to the
Winlink system. Using the pre-defined settings in Airmail it works
perfectly to connect to any of the mail boxes within range, no
tweaking of the RIT, etc. needed.

It looks like RMS Express is the cause of the issue, which I guess you
already know...

73 Dave, G4AON
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W4GRJ

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

In reply to this post by Richard Ferch

I use RMS Express Winmor, DSM780 & FlDigi MT63, Airmail Pactor and MIL110A, they all work perfect with the rig left in USB.

Jack
W4GRJ / AFA4DG

On Jan 2, 2012, at 3:43, Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> W4GRJ wrote:
>
>> Just leave the K3 in USB, do not change to data mode. RMS Express will set to
>> the correct freq. You will not have to make any adjustments.
>
> If this is correct, and RMS Express tunes to the correct frequency in
> USB mode but not in DATA A mode, then there may be an error in RMS
> Express. DATA A is exactly the same as USB except for disabling
> compression and EQ and the default choice of input audio path (line in
> instead of microphone). In particular, the frequency display in DATA A
> and USB is the same. A setup that works in USB should work in DATA A
> without changes.
>
> What I suspect might be happening is that RMS Express might be
> programmed to handle DATA A as if it were a USB version of AFSK A. In
> AFSK A, the K3's dial displays the RTTY mark frequency, whereas in DATA
> A the dial displays the suppressed carrier frequency. If the RMS Express
> programmers assumed that in DATA A the radio's indicated frequency was
> the center of the bandpass instead of the suppressed carrier frequency,
> they would program it to tune the radio 1.5 kHz too high in DATA A.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Iain G4SGX

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer

Same here, installed RMS last weekend it worked fine in USB for winmor
also on my K3 first time.

Strange.
--
*Iain Haywood*
G4SGX
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Richard Ferch

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

In reply to this post by W4GRJ

Yes, of course, but that is not in the least surprising. The question
is: Why doesn't RMS Express work properly in DATA A mode? This is
precisely the kind of application that DATA A was intended for.

73,
Rich VE3KI

On 02/01/2012 7:53 AM, W4GRJ wrote:

> I use RMS Express Winmor, DSM780& FlDigi MT63, Airmail Pactor and MIL110A, they all work perfect with the rig left in USB.
>
> Jack
> W4GRJ / AFA4DG
>
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 3:43, Richard Ferch<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> W4GRJ wrote:
>>
>>> Just leave the K3 in USB, do not change to data mode. RMS Express will set to
>>> the correct freq. You will not have to make any adjustments.
>>
>> If this is correct, and RMS Express tunes to the correct frequency in
>> USB mode but not in DATA A mode, then there may be an error in RMS
>> Express. DATA A is exactly the same as USB except for disabling
>> compression and EQ and the default choice of input audio path (line in
>> instead of microphone). In particular, the frequency display in DATA A
>> and USB is the same. A setup that works in USB should work in DATA A
>> without changes.
>>
>> What I suspect might be happening is that RMS Express might be
>> programmed to handle DATA A as if it were a USB version of AFSK A. In
>> AFSK A, the K3's dial displays the RTTY mark frequency, whereas in DATA
>> A the dial displays the suppressed carrier frequency. If the RMS Express
>> programmers assumed that in DATA A the radio's indicated frequency was
>> the center of the bandpass instead of the suppressed carrier frequency,
>> they would program it to tune the radio 1.5 kHz too high in DATA A.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

W4GRJ

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

Rich,

I understand the original question, I was just trying to simplify things by
explaining there is no need to switch modes.
This is very convenient on the MARS nets which are USB and we quickly switch
to MT63 for traffic.

Jack
W4GRJ / AFA4DG

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ferch
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

Yes, of course, but that is not in the least surprising. The question
is: Why doesn't RMS Express work properly in DATA A mode? This is
precisely the kind of application that DATA A was intended for.

73,
Rich VE3KI

On 02/01/2012 7:53 AM, W4GRJ wrote:
> I use RMS Express Winmor, DSM780& FlDigi MT63, Airmail Pactor and
MIL110A, they all work perfect with the rig left in USB.
>
> Jack
> W4GRJ / AFA4DG
>
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 3:43, Richard Ferch<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> W4GRJ wrote:
>>
>>> Just leave the K3 in USB, do not change to data mode. RMS Express will
set to

>>> the correct freq. You will not have to make any adjustments.
>>
>> If this is correct, and RMS Express tunes to the correct frequency in
>> USB mode but not in DATA A mode, then there may be an error in RMS
>> Express. DATA A is exactly the same as USB except for disabling
>> compression and EQ and the default choice of input audio path (line in
>> instead of microphone). In particular, the frequency display in DATA A
>> and USB is the same. A setup that works in USB should work in DATA A
>> without changes.
>>
>> What I suspect might be happening is that RMS Express might be
>> programmed to handle DATA A as if it were a USB version of AFSK A. In
>> AFSK A, the K3's dial displays the RTTY mark frequency, whereas in DATA
>> A the dial displays the suppressed carrier frequency. If the RMS Express
>> programmers assumed that in DATA A the radio's indicated frequency was
>> the center of the bandpass instead of the suppressed carrier frequency,
>> they would program it to tune the radio 1.5 kHz too high in DATA A.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

______________________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Matt Zilmer

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Hi Joe,

Thanks. The several MARS frequency matrix docs show center freq of
the 3 KHz channel. However, RMS Express compensates for this by
subtracting 1.5 KHz so that the suppressed carrier frequency is sent,
via the FA command.

Example:
[CXR freq: 7059.0, center is shown as 7060.5]

FA000007059000;

I already instrumented this with Portmon, and it's correct. My
interest here is to find a reason the K3 is set 1.5 KHz higher than
the CXR freq, but on RX only. The TX freq is correct (the RMS replies
to initial call-ups). Basically, I can't find the source of this
"bug", because everything looks fine from the computer side.

73,
matt W6NIA / NNN0UET

On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:09:21 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Matt,
>
>What does your frequency matrix say for "center of channel" and
>what is RMS Express setting for DATA A dial (USB carrier) frequency?
>
>In DATA A, the dial frequency is identical to the USB carrier
>frequency.
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>On 1/1/2012 4:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> Thanks, Joe. I've been with MARS for a few years now and understand
>> the "channel center" frequency matrix.
>>
>> This is a case where the string setting the K3's carrier freq is
>> setting the correct value. There is something odd at work here.
>>
>> matt
>>
>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:47:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Matt,
>>>
>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>
>>> Standard practice in government operation - including MARS in recent
>>> years - is to specify the "center of channel" and *not* the USB dial
>>> frequency. The two frequencies will differ by 1400 to 1500 Hz based
>>> on the particular assumptions used for the transmitter with 1500 Hz
>>> being slightly more common.
>>>
>>> I suspect you will find your MARS matrix specifies "center of channel"
>>> for all digital and any remaining CW networks while still giving USB
>>> suppressed carrier frequency for voice networks.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/1/2012 2:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>>> Thanks for your reply, Bill.
>>>>
>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>
>>>> If I use program control to set the freq, then I get TX + 1.5 KHz =
>>>> RX. This is with split disabled and RIT / XIT turned off.
>>>>
>>>> Temporarily, I'm manually setting the carrier freq to 1.5 KHz below
>>>> center instead of relying on the control program to do this. That
>>>> solved the problem, but doesn't explain why the radio has carrier freq
>>>> centered on the freq only under program control.
>>>>
>>>> Mysteries....
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:21:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, this is normal for digital mode DATA A. I'm not familiar with your
>>>>> particular software, but for PSK31 and similar modes, the K3 VFO A is set to
>>>>> a frequency for the carrier. The audio is on the upper sideband, and is
>>>>> centered in the 3 KHz passband which is 1.5kHz up from the carrier. Thus
>>>>> the offset. Some digital software has an allowance for an offset, but I'm
>>>>> not sure about yours. You might check on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Typically if operating on 20 meters with radio set to 14.070MHz, the
>>>>> waterfall will be full of traces at audio frequencies spread across the
>>>>> passband of your radio. So you actual transmission freq is the sum of VFO
>>>>> plus the audio.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...bill nr4c
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: data modes - bizarre behavior
>>>>>
>>>>> In all this time with K3 #24, I've never been stymied by any issue
>>>>> such as described below.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a Navy-Marine Corps MARS member. We use RMS Express in the WL2K
>>>>> system on HF, running WL2K Winmor mode The software I have is version
>>>>> 1.1.3.0.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also use LP Bridge to create two COM ports: one used for DTR (PTT)
>>>>> and the other for control, COM19 and COM20 respectively. The sound
>>>>> card is an EMU 0202.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is this: When RMS Express takes control of the K3,
>>>>> calling an RMS node on HF *always* results in the receive frequency
>>>>> being 1.5 KHz too high. I've had to rotate the RIT between call-up
>>>>> transmissions to get the RX on frequency before the initial 5 attempts
>>>>> time out. The TX frequency seems dead-on, because the RMS always
>>>>> answers - but RX is 1.5 KHz high. And yes, I've tested with multiple
>>>>> RMS nodes, including my own NMCM RMS here at the shack. Same problem
>>>>> occurs with each, so it's a setup issue with software or the K3 here.
>>>>>
>>>>> RMS Express sends the following commands after it's set the COM20 comm
>>>>> parameters:
>>>>>
>>>>> FR0; # cancel split
>>>>> RT0; # RIT OFF
>>>>> XT0; # XIT OFF
>>>>> MD6; # TX DATA mode
>>>>> DT0; # DATA A sub-mode of TX DATA
>>>>>
>>>>> The sequence above is sent once at the beginning of an RMS Express
>>>>> call-up of the remote node. Only COM19's DTR is used to assert PTT
>>>>> for transmissions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for grins, I checked the various meta-modes the K3 is in. I
>>>>> discovered that even though AI is set to ZERO, I'm still getting IF
>>>>> annunciations back from the K3. Odd, that.
>>>>>
>>>>> K31; # K3 extended commands enabled
>>>>> K22; # K2 extended " "
>>>>> AI0; # AUTOINF OFF
>>>>>
>>>>> Since split and the incremental controls are off and ZEROed, I'm
>>>>> totally blind to what's going on. VFO A is on the correct frequency
>>>>> in each case (for each RMS Node), which means to me that RX and TX
>>>>> actual frequencies should be the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any ideas what's causing this?
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 and HNY,
>>>>> matt W6NIA, NNN0UET
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>
>>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

> Basically, I can't find the source of this "bug", because everything
> looks fine from the computer side.

I believe you will find the "bug" in the order in which RMS Express
sends the commands to the rig. Changing mode after setting frequency
and changing data dub-mode after setting frequency *can* result in
offsets. In particular, if the digital mode was AFSK or FSK (DT1;
or DT2;) switching to DATA A (DT0;) will result in frequency change.
The magnitude of that change will depend on the selected RTTY MARK
frequency.

Note particularly that the displayed frequency does not change but
the carrier oscillator (and sideband) do change when switching from
AFSK A to DATA A.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 1/2/2012 10:13 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> Thanks. The several MARS frequency matrix docs show center freq of
> the 3 KHz channel. However, RMS Express compensates for this by
> subtracting 1.5 KHz so that the suppressed carrier frequency is sent,
> via the FA command.
>
> Example:
> [CXR freq: 7059.0, center is shown as 7060.5]
>
> FA000007059000;
>
> I already instrumented this with Portmon, and it's correct. My
> interest here is to find a reason the K3 is set 1.5 KHz higher than
> the CXR freq, but on RX only. The TX freq is correct (the RMS replies
> to initial call-ups). Basically, I can't find the source of this
> "bug", because everything looks fine from the computer side.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>
> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:09:21 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>
>> Matt,
>>
>> What does your frequency matrix say for "center of channel" and
>> what is RMS Express setting for DATA A dial (USB carrier) frequency?
>>
>> In DATA A, the dial frequency is identical to the USB carrier
>> frequency.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 1/1/2012 4:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>> Thanks, Joe. I've been with MARS for a few years now and understand
>>> the "channel center" frequency matrix.
>>>
>>> This is a case where the string setting the K3's carrier freq is
>>> setting the correct value. There is something odd at work here.
>>>
>>> matt
>>>
>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:47:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Matt,
>>>>
>>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>
>>>> Standard practice in government operation - including MARS in recent
>>>> years - is to specify the "center of channel" and *not* the USB dial
>>>> frequency. The two frequencies will differ by 1400 to 1500 Hz based
>>>> on the particular assumptions used for the transmitter with 1500 Hz
>>>> being slightly more common.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect you will find your MARS matrix specifies "center of channel"
>>>> for all digital and any remaining CW networks while still giving USB
>>>> suppressed carrier frequency for voice networks.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/1/2012 2:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>>>> Thanks for your reply, Bill.
>>>>>
>>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I use program control to set the freq, then I get TX + 1.5 KHz =
>>>>> RX. This is with split disabled and RIT / XIT turned off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Temporarily, I'm manually setting the carrier freq to 1.5 KHz below
>>>>> center instead of relying on the control program to do this. That
>>>>> solved the problem, but doesn't explain why the radio has carrier freq
>>>>> centered on the freq only under program control.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mysteries....
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:21:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, this is normal for digital mode DATA A. I'm not familiar with your
>>>>>> particular software, but for PSK31 and similar modes, the K3 VFO A is set to
>>>>>> a frequency for the carrier. The audio is on the upper sideband, and is
>>>>>> centered in the 3 KHz passband which is 1.5kHz up from the carrier. Thus
>>>>>> the offset. Some digital software has an allowance for an offset, but I'm
>>>>>> not sure about yours. You might check on this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Typically if operating on 20 meters with radio set to 14.070MHz, the
>>>>>> waterfall will be full of traces at audio frequencies spread across the
>>>>>> passband of your radio. So you actual transmission freq is the sum of VFO
>>>>>> plus the audio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...bill nr4c
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: data modes - bizarre behavior
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In all this time with K3 #24, I've never been stymied by any issue
>>>>>> such as described below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a Navy-Marine Corps MARS member. We use RMS Express in the WL2K
>>>>>> system on HF, running WL2K Winmor mode The software I have is version
>>>>>> 1.1.3.0.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also use LP Bridge to create two COM ports: one used for DTR (PTT)
>>>>>> and the other for control, COM19 and COM20 respectively. The sound
>>>>>> card is an EMU 0202.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is this: When RMS Express takes control of the K3,
>>>>>> calling an RMS node on HF *always* results in the receive frequency
>>>>>> being 1.5 KHz too high. I've had to rotate the RIT between call-up
>>>>>> transmissions to get the RX on frequency before the initial 5 attempts
>>>>>> time out. The TX frequency seems dead-on, because the RMS always
>>>>>> answers - but RX is 1.5 KHz high. And yes, I've tested with multiple
>>>>>> RMS nodes, including my own NMCM RMS here at the shack. Same problem
>>>>>> occurs with each, so it's a setup issue with software or the K3 here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RMS Express sends the following commands after it's set the COM20 comm
>>>>>> parameters:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FR0; # cancel split
>>>>>> RT0; # RIT OFF
>>>>>> XT0; # XIT OFF
>>>>>> MD6; # TX DATA mode
>>>>>> DT0; # DATA A sub-mode of TX DATA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The sequence above is sent once at the beginning of an RMS Express
>>>>>> call-up of the remote node. Only COM19's DTR is used to assert PTT
>>>>>> for transmissions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for grins, I checked the various meta-modes the K3 is in. I
>>>>>> discovered that even though AI is set to ZERO, I'm still getting IF
>>>>>> annunciations back from the K3. Odd, that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> K31; # K3 extended commands enabled
>>>>>> K22; # K2 extended " "
>>>>>> AI0; # AUTOINF OFF
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since split and the incremental controls are off and ZEROed, I'm
>>>>>> totally blind to what's going on. VFO A is on the correct frequency
>>>>>> in each case (for each RMS Node), which means to me that RX and TX
>>>>>> actual frequencies should be the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any ideas what's causing this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73 and HNY,
>>>>>> matt W6NIA, NNN0UET
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>
>>>
>

oe9fwv

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

In reply to this post by W4GRJ

I use Airmail and RMS Express and both work as they should in Pactor 1-4 mode.
RMS Express version is 1.1.3.0. Controller is a SCS DR-7800 P4 Dragon

I recommend to use DATA Mode in the K3 for Pactor.
DATA Mode should be set to DATA A, USB.
You should set RMS Express to use DATA USB.
You should enable SYNC DT in the K3 Main Menu. (a function key has to be set)
Use Line in/out to connect the transceiver to the modem.
Use PSKA and FSKA settings around 800-1000 mV.
Adjust LINE IN Gain until you see ALC 3-4 bars flickering when you transmit.
Mic SEL must be set to LINE IN.

The dial frequency on the K3 will be set to Center - 1.5 khz.
If you use the predefined frequency tables in RMS Express, you will have the correct
frequency set (RX and TX will be the same frequency and mode) - unless you activate split or
RIT/XIT what you should not do of course.

I have successfully worked with many stations since a long time with these settings.
I do not believe that there is a problem with RMS Express in the current version in this
respect. (there are problems, but different from the reported here)

The K3 is an excellent transceiver for Pactor. It is the best I ever had :-)

73!
Werner oe9fwv

On 2 Jan 2012 at 7:53, W4GRJ wrote:

> I use RMS Express Winmor, DSM780 & FlDigi MT63, Airmail Pactor and
> MIL110A, they all work perfect with the rig left in USB.
>
> Jack
> W4GRJ / AFA4DG
>
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 3:43, Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > W4GRJ wrote:
> >
> >> Just leave the K3 in USB, do not change to data mode. RMS Express
> >> will set to the correct freq. You will not have to make any
> >> adjustments.
> >
> > If this is correct, and RMS Express tunes to the correct frequency
> > in USB mode but not in DATA A mode, then there may be an error in
> > RMS Express. DATA A is exactly the same as USB except for disabling
> > compression and EQ and the default choice of input audio path (line
> > in instead of microphone). In particular, the frequency display in
> > DATA A and USB is the same. A setup that works in USB should work in
> > DATA A without changes.
> >
> > What I suspect might be happening is that RMS Express might be
> > programmed to handle DATA A as if it were a USB version of AFSK A.
> > In AFSK A, the K3's dial displays the RTTY mark frequency, whereas
> > in DATA A the dial displays the suppressed carrier frequency. If the
> > RMS Express programmers assumed that in DATA A the radio's indicated
> > frequency was the center of the bandpass instead of the suppressed
> > carrier frequency, they would program it to tune the radio 1.5 kHz
> > too high in DATA A.
> >
> > 73,
> > Rich VE3KI
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
>
>

--
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Matt Zilmer

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Hi Joe,

I thought about this a fair bit. Changed USB hubs here a few weeks
ago and the new one is A LOT faster. I think it's possible that
serial is running through with fewer inter-command delays and also
with little time between characters.

Using the old, slower USB hub confirms the difference. Really, after
all is said, this means the RMS Express program needs better testing
and probably a re-code of the Elecraft Radios TNC driver.

Thanks for your ideas.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:30:49 -0500, you wrote:

>
>> Basically, I can't find the source of this "bug", because everything
>> looks fine from the computer side.
>
>I believe you will find the "bug" in the order in which RMS Express
>sends the commands to the rig. Changing mode after setting frequency
>and changing data dub-mode after setting frequency *can* result in
>offsets. In particular, if the digital mode was AFSK or FSK (DT1;
>or DT2;) switching to DATA A (DT0;) will result in frequency change.
>The magnitude of that change will depend on the selected RTTY MARK
>frequency.
>
>Note particularly that the displayed frequency does not change but
>the carrier oscillator (and sideband) do change when switching from
>AFSK A to DATA A.
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>On 1/2/2012 10:13 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> Hi Joe,
>>
>> Thanks. The several MARS frequency matrix docs show center freq of
>> the 3 KHz channel. However, RMS Express compensates for this by
>> subtracting 1.5 KHz so that the suppressed carrier frequency is sent,
>> via the FA command.
>>
>> Example:
>> [CXR freq: 7059.0, center is shown as 7060.5]
>>
>> FA000007059000;
>>
>> I already instrumented this with Portmon, and it's correct. My
>> interest here is to find a reason the K3 is set 1.5 KHz higher than
>> the CXR freq, but on RX only. The TX freq is correct (the RMS replies
>> to initial call-ups). Basically, I can't find the source of this
>> "bug", because everything looks fine from the computer side.
>>
>> 73,
>> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>>
>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:09:21 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Matt,
>>>
>>> What does your frequency matrix say for "center of channel" and
>>> what is RMS Express setting for DATA A dial (USB carrier) frequency?
>>>
>>> In DATA A, the dial frequency is identical to the USB carrier
>>> frequency.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/1/2012 4:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>>> Thanks, Joe. I've been with MARS for a few years now and understand
>>>> the "channel center" frequency matrix.
>>>>
>>>> This is a case where the string setting the K3's carrier freq is
>>>> setting the correct value. There is something odd at work here.
>>>>
>>>> matt
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:47:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>
>>>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>>
>>>>> Standard practice in government operation - including MARS in recent
>>>>> years - is to specify the "center of channel" and *not* the USB dial
>>>>> frequency. The two frequencies will differ by 1400 to 1500 Hz based
>>>>> on the particular assumptions used for the transmitter with 1500 Hz
>>>>> being slightly more common.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect you will find your MARS matrix specifies "center of channel"
>>>>> for all digital and any remaining CW networks while still giving USB
>>>>> suppressed carrier frequency for voice networks.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/1/2012 2:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks for your reply, Bill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I use program control to set the freq, then I get TX + 1.5 KHz =
>>>>>> RX. This is with split disabled and RIT / XIT turned off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Temporarily, I'm manually setting the carrier freq to 1.5 KHz below
>>>>>> center instead of relying on the control program to do this. That
>>>>>> solved the problem, but doesn't explain why the radio has carrier freq
>>>>>> centered on the freq only under program control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mysteries....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:21:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, this is normal for digital mode DATA A. I'm not familiar with your
>>>>>>> particular software, but for PSK31 and similar modes, the K3 VFO A is set to
>>>>>>> a frequency for the carrier. The audio is on the upper sideband, and is
>>>>>>> centered in the 3 KHz passband which is 1.5kHz up from the carrier. Thus
>>>>>>> the offset. Some digital software has an allowance for an offset, but I'm
>>>>>>> not sure about yours. You might check on this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typically if operating on 20 meters with radio set to 14.070MHz, the
>>>>>>> waterfall will be full of traces at audio frequencies spread across the
>>>>>>> passband of your radio. So you actual transmission freq is the sum of VFO
>>>>>>> plus the audio.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...bill nr4c
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: data modes - bizarre behavior
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In all this time with K3 #24, I've never been stymied by any issue
>>>>>>> such as described below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm a Navy-Marine Corps MARS member. We use RMS Express in the WL2K
>>>>>>> system on HF, running WL2K Winmor mode The software I have is version
>>>>>>> 1.1.3.0.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also use LP Bridge to create two COM ports: one used for DTR (PTT)
>>>>>>> and the other for control, COM19 and COM20 respectively. The sound
>>>>>>> card is an EMU 0202.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem is this: When RMS Express takes control of the K3,
>>>>>>> calling an RMS node on HF *always* results in the receive frequency
>>>>>>> being 1.5 KHz too high. I've had to rotate the RIT between call-up
>>>>>>> transmissions to get the RX on frequency before the initial 5 attempts
>>>>>>> time out. The TX frequency seems dead-on, because the RMS always
>>>>>>> answers - but RX is 1.5 KHz high. And yes, I've tested with multiple
>>>>>>> RMS nodes, including my own NMCM RMS here at the shack. Same problem
>>>>>>> occurs with each, so it's a setup issue with software or the K3 here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RMS Express sends the following commands after it's set the COM20 comm
>>>>>>> parameters:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FR0; # cancel split
>>>>>>> RT0; # RIT OFF
>>>>>>> XT0; # XIT OFF
>>>>>>> MD6; # TX DATA mode
>>>>>>> DT0; # DATA A sub-mode of TX DATA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The sequence above is sent once at the beginning of an RMS Express
>>>>>>> call-up of the remote node. Only COM19's DTR is used to assert PTT
>>>>>>> for transmissions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just for grins, I checked the various meta-modes the K3 is in. I
>>>>>>> discovered that even though AI is set to ZERO, I'm still getting IF
>>>>>>> annunciations back from the K3. Odd, that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> K31; # K3 extended commands enabled
>>>>>>> K22; # K2 extended " "
>>>>>>> AI0; # AUTOINF OFF
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since split and the incremental controls are off and ZEROed, I'm
>>>>>>> totally blind to what's going on. VFO A is on the correct frequency
>>>>>>> in each case (for each RMS Node), which means to me that RX and TX
>>>>>>> actual frequencies should be the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any ideas what's causing this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73 and HNY,
>>>>>>> matt W6NIA, NNN0UET
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

> Using the old, slower USB hub confirms the difference. Really, after
> all is said, this means the RMS Express program needs better testing
> and probably a re-code of the Elecraft Radios TNC driver.

That's strange ... some of the other programs pound the hell out of the
K3 controller. Ham Radio Deluxe will dump as many as six commands on
the K3 at one time and do it again 5 milliseconds later. Some of the
contest programs will poll for both VFO frequencies, FT; (split status)
and SB; (dual receive status) all at the same time but they don't seem
to have any problems.

I do agree that RMS Express need better testing of the Elecraft driver
- with special attention to those edge cases where FA changes bands or
is an "out of band" (MARS) frequency.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 1/7/2012 12:30 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> I thought about this a fair bit. Changed USB hubs here a few weeks
> ago and the new one is A LOT faster. I think it's possible that
> serial is running through with fewer inter-command delays and also
> with little time between characters.
>
> Using the old, slower USB hub confirms the difference. Really, after
> all is said, this means the RMS Express program needs better testing
> and probably a re-code of the Elecraft Radios TNC driver.
>
> Thanks for your ideas.
>
> 73,
> matt W6NIA
>
>
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 11:30:49 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>
>>> Basically, I can't find the source of this "bug", because everything
>>> looks fine from the computer side.
>>
>> I believe you will find the "bug" in the order in which RMS Express
>> sends the commands to the rig. Changing mode after setting frequency
>> and changing data dub-mode after setting frequency *can* result in
>> offsets. In particular, if the digital mode was AFSK or FSK (DT1;
>> or DT2;) switching to DATA A (DT0;) will result in frequency change.
>> The magnitude of that change will depend on the selected RTTY MARK
>> frequency.
>>
>> Note particularly that the displayed frequency does not change but
>> the carrier oscillator (and sideband) do change when switching from
>> AFSK A to DATA A.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 1/2/2012 10:13 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>> Hi Joe,
>>>
>>> Thanks. The several MARS frequency matrix docs show center freq of
>>> the 3 KHz channel. However, RMS Express compensates for this by
>>> subtracting 1.5 KHz so that the suppressed carrier frequency is sent,
>>> via the FA command.
>>>
>>> Example:
>>> [CXR freq: 7059.0, center is shown as 7060.5]
>>>
>>> FA000007059000;
>>>
>>> I already instrumented this with Portmon, and it's correct. My
>>> interest here is to find a reason the K3 is set 1.5 KHz higher than
>>> the CXR freq, but on RX only. The TX freq is correct (the RMS replies
>>> to initial call-ups). Basically, I can't find the source of this
>>> "bug", because everything looks fine from the computer side.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>>>
>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 17:09:21 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Matt,
>>>>
>>>> What does your frequency matrix say for "center of channel" and
>>>> what is RMS Express setting for DATA A dial (USB carrier) frequency?
>>>>
>>>> In DATA A, the dial frequency is identical to the USB carrier
>>>> frequency.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/1/2012 4:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>>>> Thanks, Joe. I've been with MARS for a few years now and understand
>>>>> the "channel center" frequency matrix.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a case where the string setting the K3's carrier freq is
>>>>> setting the correct value. There is something odd at work here.
>>>>>
>>>>> matt
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 15:47:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Standard practice in government operation - including MARS in recent
>>>>>> years - is to specify the "center of channel" and *not* the USB dial
>>>>>> frequency. The two frequencies will differ by 1400 to 1500 Hz based
>>>>>> on the particular assumptions used for the transmitter with 1500 Hz
>>>>>> being slightly more common.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect you will find your MARS matrix specifies "center of channel"
>>>>>> for all digital and any remaining CW networks while still giving USB
>>>>>> suppressed carrier frequency for voice networks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/1/2012 2:25 PM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks for your reply, Bill.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I verified that the software is setting the correct carrier freq,
>>>>>>> based on the center freq cited by the MARS frequency matrix. I was
>>>>>>> thinking along the same lines as your suggestion below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I use program control to set the freq, then I get TX + 1.5 KHz =
>>>>>>> RX. This is with split disabled and RIT / XIT turned off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Temporarily, I'm manually setting the carrier freq to 1.5 KHz below
>>>>>>> center instead of relying on the control program to do this. That
>>>>>>> solved the problem, but doesn't explain why the radio has carrier freq
>>>>>>> centered on the freq only under program control.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mysteries....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 73,
>>>>>>> matt W6NIA / NNN0UET
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 13:21:51 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, this is normal for digital mode DATA A. I'm not familiar with your
>>>>>>>> particular software, but for PSK31 and similar modes, the K3 VFO A is set to
>>>>>>>> a frequency for the carrier. The audio is on the upper sideband, and is
>>>>>>>> centered in the 3 KHz passband which is 1.5kHz up from the carrier. Thus
>>>>>>>> the offset. Some digital software has an allowance for an offset, but I'm
>>>>>>>> not sure about yours. You might check on this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Typically if operating on 20 meters with radio set to 14.070MHz, the
>>>>>>>> waterfall will be full of traces at audio frequencies spread across the
>>>>>>>> passband of your radio. So you actual transmission freq is the sum of VFO
>>>>>>>> plus the audio.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...bill nr4c
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 11:31 AM
>>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: data modes - bizarre behavior
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In all this time with K3 #24, I've never been stymied by any issue
>>>>>>>> such as described below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm a Navy-Marine Corps MARS member. We use RMS Express in the WL2K
>>>>>>>> system on HF, running WL2K Winmor mode The software I have is version
>>>>>>>> 1.1.3.0.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also use LP Bridge to create two COM ports: one used for DTR (PTT)
>>>>>>>> and the other for control, COM19 and COM20 respectively. The sound
>>>>>>>> card is an EMU 0202.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem is this: When RMS Express takes control of the K3,
>>>>>>>> calling an RMS node on HF *always* results in the receive frequency
>>>>>>>> being 1.5 KHz too high. I've had to rotate the RIT between call-up
>>>>>>>> transmissions to get the RX on frequency before the initial 5 attempts
>>>>>>>> time out. The TX frequency seems dead-on, because the RMS always
>>>>>>>> answers - but RX is 1.5 KHz high. And yes, I've tested with multiple
>>>>>>>> RMS nodes, including my own NMCM RMS here at the shack. Same problem
>>>>>>>> occurs with each, so it's a setup issue with software or the K3 here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RMS Express sends the following commands after it's set the COM20 comm
>>>>>>>> parameters:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FR0; # cancel split
>>>>>>>> RT0; # RIT OFF
>>>>>>>> XT0; # XIT OFF
>>>>>>>> MD6; # TX DATA mode
>>>>>>>> DT0; # DATA A sub-mode of TX DATA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The sequence above is sent once at the beginning of an RMS Express
>>>>>>>> call-up of the remote node. Only COM19's DTR is used to assert PTT
>>>>>>>> for transmissions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just for grins, I checked the various meta-modes the K3 is in. I
>>>>>>>> discovered that even though AI is set to ZERO, I'm still getting IF
>>>>>>>> annunciations back from the K3. Odd, that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> K31; # K3 extended commands enabled
>>>>>>>> K22; # K2 extended " "
>>>>>>>> AI0; # AUTOINF OFF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since split and the incremental controls are off and ZEROed, I'm
>>>>>>>> totally blind to what's going on. VFO A is on the correct frequency
>>>>>>>> in each case (for each RMS Node), which means to me that RX and TX
>>>>>>>> actual frequencies should be the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any ideas what's causing this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 73 and HNY,
>>>>>>>> matt W6NIA, NNN0UET
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>

Matt Zilmer

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

Yes, this is a known problem. For example, the driver starts
transmitting before the FA command is complete on the first attempt to
connect, whether or not a band change is involved. It's amazing that
no one caught this in beta tests.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 02:07:58 -0500, you wrote:

>I do agree that RMS Express need better testing of the Elecraft driver
>- with special attention to those edge cases where FA changes bands or
>is an "out of band" (MARS) frequency.
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

On 1/7/2012 8:46 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
> Yes, this is a known problem. For example, the driver starts
> transmitting before the FA command is complete on the first attempt to
> connect, whether or not a band change is involved. It's amazing that
> no one caught this in beta tests.

That is truly bizarre. Why would any application start transmitting
before it has confirmed that the rig is set to the proper frequency
and mode? In addition, why would RMS Express reset the frequency for
every connect ... talk about unnecessary QRM from what is already a
QRM engine.

73,

... Joe, W4TV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Matt Zilmer

Re: K3: data modes - bizarre behavior

Good questions, Joe. I've never gotten an answer (and yes, I've asked
around).

matt

On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 10:17:57 -0500, you wrote:

>
>
>On 1/7/2012 8:46 AM, Matt Zilmer wrote:
>> Yes, this is a known problem. For example, the driver starts
>> transmitting before the FA command is complete on the first attempt to
>> connect, whether or not a band change is involved. It's amazing that
>> no one caught this in beta tests.
>
>That is truly bizarre. Why would any application start transmitting
>before it has confirmed that the rig is set to the proper frequency
>and mode? In addition, why would RMS Express reset the frequency for
>every connect ... talk about unnecessary QRM from what is already a
>QRM engine.
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV