SO2R setup
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Its an obvious direction that 2 K2s (KK4?) would be a great,
desktop-friendly SO2R setup. Anyone with recommendations on the best way to do this (or to simulate the 2 RX/1TX capability of the 7800, Orion, FTDX9000)? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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N1MM logger has a nice SO2R implementation for 2 radios. It supports
7800, Orion and K2 via Kenwood protocol. It's also free if you want to try it. Larry N8LP Neal Campbell and Sarah Ferrell wrote: > Its an obvious direction that 2 K2s (KK4?) would be a great, > desktop-friendly SO2R setup. Anyone with recommendations on the best > way to do this (or to simulate the 2 RX/1TX capability of the 7800, > Orion, FTDX9000)? > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Neal Campbell and Sarah Ferrell
I used a TopTen DX Doubler to interface the PTT and mic audio between the two rigs. Works fine.
Greg AB7R -------------- Original message -------------- > N1MM logger has a nice SO2R implementation for 2 radios. It supports > 7800, Orion and K2 via Kenwood protocol. It's also free if you want to > try it. > > Larry N8LP > > > Neal Campbell and Sarah Ferrell wrote: > > > Its an obvious direction that 2 K2s (KK4?) would be a great, > > desktop-friendly SO2R setup. Anyone with recommendations on the best > > way to do this (or to simulate the 2 RX/1TX capability of the 7800, > > Orion, FTDX9000)? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Post to: [hidden email] > > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Just as a reminder to those of you who are contemplating SO2R operation with
the K2 - the stock K2 cannot properly use PTT for steering between the transceivers when in CW mode because the PTT line is the same as the DOT input. If the SO2R enabled program steer CW by switching the keying, things will work fine, but I believe there are some that key both rigs and depend on the PTT routing to select the proper transceiver. I am investigating the methods used by various programs right now. There is a 'cure' - take a look at my 'PTT for CW' article on my website www.qsl.net for the schematic. The photos currently have my 'haywired' prototype, but I am working on a dressed up version that I should have completed in about 3 weeks. No changes to the electrical operation, but a much 'prettier' packaging arrangement. 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > > > I used a TopTen DX Doubler to interface the PTT and mic audio > between the two rigs. Works fine. > > Greg > AB7R > > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In CT, CTWin, NA contesting programs the PTT delay is
used to immediately key the radio (and amp, if used), delay the keying from the program for a user defined time, send the CW from the PC buffer and quickly drop the PTT. PTT delay will not work with the K2 because it is common to the dit line, or it will key the radio to full power, depending on how the keying is set up. I'm not sure about N1MM WroteLog and TRLog, but I believe they are the same. I have a box with a couple relays and a transistor to use LPT1 pin 14 to switch the keying line, amp relay line and eventually (when I get around to it) switch RX audio. Probably by the time I'm done with my homebrew box I'll have the price of a DX Doubler and then some in it! 73 Hank K8DD W3FPR - Don Wilhelm wrote: >Just as a reminder to those of you who are contemplating SO2R operation with >the K2 - the stock K2 cannot properly use PTT for steering between the >transceivers when in CW mode because the PTT line is the same as the DOT >input. If the SO2R enabled program steer CW by switching the keying, things >will work fine, but I believe there are some that key both rigs and depend >on the PTT routing to select the proper transceiver. I am investigating the >methods used by various programs right now. > >There is a 'cure' - take a look at my 'PTT for CW' article on my website >www.qsl.net for the schematic. The photos currently have my 'haywired' >prototype, but I am working on a dressed up version that I should have >completed in about 3 weeks. No changes to the electrical operation, but a >much 'prettier' packaging arrangement. > >73, >Don W3FPR > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [hidden email] >> >> >>I used a TopTen DX Doubler to interface the PTT and mic audio >>between the two rigs. Works fine. >> >>Greg >>AB7R >> >> >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > > > -- 'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.' -anon _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Neal Campbell and Sarah Ferrell
My solution for the K2 PTT problem in CW with CT and the Top Ten DX
Doubler: unplug the mic connectors! It's worked fine for 4 years so far. On the other hand I have only operated SO2R in CW contests at QRP and 100 watt levels so far (no external amps). IARU and other mixed-mode contests would require Don's solution. 73 Gary, N7IR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Neal Campbell and Sarah Ferrell
Thanks Ed for pointing out the ambiguity: I meant the K2 mic connectors.
The TTDXD interface connectors also carry headphone audio and keying signals to the tranceivers. 73 Gary, N7IR At 04:26 PM 2/2/05 -0500, you wrote: > > >gary: >Unplug which mike connectors - in K2 or ten ten dx doubler >Ed, AE4EC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Neal Campbell and Sarah Ferrell
W3FPR posted:
>Just as a reminder to those of you who are contemplating SO2R operation with >the K2 - the stock K2 cannot properly use PTT for steering between the >transceivers when in CW mode because the PTT line is the same as the DOT >input. If the SO2R enabled program steer CW by switching the keying, things >will work fine, but I believe there are some that key both rigs and depend >on the PTT routing to select the proper transceiver. I am investigating the >methods used by various programs right now. As one may be using any of a variety of radios, amplifiers, antenna switching & the like, the way it is done is by forcing the radio into transmit mode first. Amplifiers & anything else downstream has T-R switching driven by the radio. The logging program then goes key down after a short period of time. The process is reversed when going from transmit back to receive. The transition from transmit to receive on one radio may be followed immediately by the second radio doing the opposite (operator CQs on one band whilst listening for replies to just finished CQ on the other). If during the CQ on the second band a reply is heard to the CQ on the first band, the second CQ is aborted & the logging program jumps back to first radio. As different radios behave somewhat differently & timing is critical, some logging programs allow tweaking of PTT-to-key-down delay, as well as adjustable timing for polling the radio for frequency information (or to even not poll the radio during transmit as some just cannot keep up with everything that is going on). Ultimately, all the major contest logging programs implemented CW PTT to avoid hot switching amplifiers, though there is more to it than that. Little things matter & add up after a while if you are running stations at a fair clip (like 100/hour average for an entire weekend, with peaks well over 200 - short spurts of up to six QSOs/minute are even possible from my apartment station). Some logging programs even vary PTT-to-key-down delays based on whether the operator is sending with the paddles instead of from the program's memories, optimizing timing of the station's T-R switching times whilst also trying to minimize unnecessary T-R transitions on relays in the amplifier. This is all done by asserting the two lines that the vast majority of radios have - even my first station that wasn't even a transceiver (SX-100/Viking II) - one to put the radio into transmit mode & the other to go key-down. The three major logging programs do it this way. If something out there achieves this functionality in another way, I doubt you will find it in use by other than a few & most likely even fewer who are serious about radiosport. Like serious VHF & above work, what we do relies on being able to _control_ T-R switching & CW keying externally - an analogy might be T-R switching in a radio itself: various bits need to do certain things in the correct sequence & with correct timing. Just like inside the K2 itself, switching between transmit & receive in a radiosporting station can't really be done in any other way. This is why, although I was thinking of something like Don has done up with the 74AC153, this treats only treats the "symptom" by keeping CW keying from getting to the K2 unless PTT is asserted. I look forward to the firmware fix that addresses the "disease". Hopefully Elecraft will include CW PTT in any future products that might be of interest to the radiosporting segment of the market. In the consumer electronic product industry, usually the product is designed to interface like similar products where that product is used, as opposed to the product requiring the consumer to adopt everything to that product. An exception to this is SONY, but one can only get away with being so unique if you are as dominant in the market as they are. The amateur equipment portion of the consumer electronics industry really isn't a good place to do mainstream products like radios so differently, unless one wants to stay out of the mainstream (where most of the water flows ;^). It's good to see radiosporting applications of the K2 being better embraced here by the Elecraft "community". Like the car one drives, there are a lot of improvements & refinements to the product for those with more pedestrian applications that can come about from competitive use of the product. With the keen interest the K2 has created in the radiosporting community, hopefully any future products might take advantage of this interest to catch stuff like CW PTT earlier on. 73, VR2BrettGraham _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Don replied (and I trust will not mind my keeping it on the list, as
my intention is more than helping him): >Thanks for your analysis. > >One point though worthy of mentioning - the K2 will not produce RF until >keying takes place, so my solution does the job quite nicely by simply >inhibiting the keying. > >In many applications where the computer does both the keying and the 'PTT', >everything will sequence fine if the 'PTT' is simply not connected to the K2 >(but connected to everything else - The RF path will be completed before the >program begins keying). The only problem that will occur is when the K2 is >keyed directly by the paddles instead of through the computer control. > >Bottom line, many situations do not really need the CW PTT, but >unfortunately, SO2R operation where the steering is done through PTT is not >one of those situations. Effectively ANDing a 'PTT' line with the key line doesn't do much towards stopping the radio from transmitting when 'PTT' is unasserted if the radio is doing the keying. A possible situation for this is where the K2 is used as a remote base & one wants to have a fail-safe should one want to not keep transmitting into something that has gotten ugly (failed amp, antenna, antenna switch, etc). Even this radiosporting enthusiast can envision using his K2 with the KY command this way - I may one day soon only be able to operate with such a remote station & is one reason I bought a K2. Such a summary "unhappiness" alarm could also be used to implement the sort of positive control I think I would have to have on a remote base if I were to do this back in USA (though the rules may have changed since I left, it really is a good thing to do any way). I use a popular antenna matrix switching product that I think could tell me when it hasn't really switched due to how its way of doing interlock between its two ports (used for two radios) can become intermittent. I would like use this to stop _all_ of my radios from transmitting under _any_ circumstances when I get around to figuring out a way of putting an unhappy light in the matrix. Some folks do not use logging programs that send CW for them. A toggle or foot switch can just as easily drive switching of key, mic, PTT & audio between two rigs in an SO2R contesting station. Other folks - at one time, myself included - will have nothing other than a foot switch determining if their station is in transmit or receive mode. So like how radios might be used, there is more to CW 'PTT' to consider. That's why I didn't go further with the mod you have kindly put forward - it's better done in code. Another one high on my list is filter selection - anyone who has heard what after-market filters can do to a radio can probably appreciate what it's like to sit on an INRAD prototype for the K2 & not be able to use it. ;^( 73, VR2BrettGraham _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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True, and thanks for the clarification.
My CW PTT for the K2 does not address a situation where the K2 is keyed by its internal commands - it only works with hardwired inputs to the K2 key jack. How many folks using or contemplating SO2R are using the KY commands for keying? 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > > Don replied (and I trust will not mind my keeping it on the list, as > my intention is more than helping him): > > >Thanks for your analysis. > > > >One point though worthy of mentioning - the K2 will not produce RF until > >keying takes place, so my solution does the job quite nicely by simply > >inhibiting the keying. > > > >In many applications where the computer does both the keying and > the 'PTT', > >everything will sequence fine if the 'PTT' is simply not > connected to the K2 > >(but connected to everything else - The RF path will be > completed before the > >program begins keying). The only problem that will occur is > when the K2 is > >keyed directly by the paddles instead of through the computer control. > > > >Bottom line, many situations do not really need the CW PTT, but > >unfortunately, SO2R operation where the steering is done through > PTT is not > >one of those situations. > > Effectively ANDing a 'PTT' line with the key line doesn't do much towards > stopping the radio from transmitting when 'PTT' is unasserted if the radio > is doing the keying. A possible situation for this is where the > K2 is used > as a remote base & one wants to have a fail-safe should one want to not > keep transmitting into something that has gotten ugly (failed amp, > antenna, antenna switch, etc). Even this radiosporting enthusiast can > envision using his K2 with the KY command this way - I may one day > soon only be able to operate with such a remote station & is one reason > I bought a K2. > > Such a summary "unhappiness" alarm could also be used to > implement the sort of positive control I think I would have to have > on a remote base if I were to do this back in USA (though the rules may > have changed since I left, it really is a good thing to do any way). > > I use a popular antenna matrix switching product that I think could tell > me when it hasn't really switched due to how its way of doing interlock > between its two ports (used for two radios) can become intermittent. I > would like use this to stop _all_ of my radios from transmitting under > _any_ circumstances when I get around to figuring out a way of putting > an unhappy light in the matrix. > > Some folks do not use logging programs that send CW for them. A > toggle or foot switch can just as easily drive switching of key, mic, > PTT & audio between two rigs in an SO2R contesting station. Other > folks - at one time, myself included - will have nothing other than a foot > switch determining if their station is in transmit or receive mode. > > So like how radios might be used, there is more to CW 'PTT' to > consider. That's why I didn't go further with the mod you have kindly > put forward - it's better done in code. Another one high on my list is > filter selection - anyone who has heard what after-market filters can > do to a radio can probably appreciate what it's like to sit on an INRAD > prototype for the K2 & not be able to use it. ;^( > > 73, VR2BrettGraham > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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W3FPR continued:
>True, and thanks for the clarification. >My CW PTT for the K2 does not address a situation where the K2 is keyed by >its internal commands - it only works with hardwired inputs to the K2 key >jack. >How many folks using or contemplating SO2R are using the KY commands for >keying? I suspect you will find the answer to that question to be zero. Though I have not used KY commands yet, I would not be surprised if it would be possible to get everything to work - whilst at the same time polling the radio for frequency information - to rely on KY commands keying the radio consistently in time. In SO2R operation, timing is important if one is to try & squeeze a contact on the second rig whilst running on the other at any reasonable clip. Spend too much time on the second rig & one may even loose the run frequency to someone else. I believe KY is unique to Elecraft. To key the rig via the serial port when there is a key line available already only increases the novelty factor should someone out there be doing it. It's that novelty factor that suggests the answer is close to zero to begin with & likely to remain in that vicinity. KY may be a concern to the remote base crowd, or at least those in USA if deregulation hasn't gone so far as to allow stuff to be put on HF without any form of additional control. Accommodating this in firmware would be tough. But as for making the radio stop transmitting after 'PTT' is lifted, one might still be able to do something along the lines of hardware modification you put forward by using the CE line. It gets easier if one doesn't have to worry about the internal keyer & I suspect no serious SO2Rer uses the internal keyer on any radio, but even with the keyer it might be possible to stop the radio after it completes the current code element after 'PTT' is lifted. In any event, I suspect the rest of the radiosporting community is keenly waiting for the firmware fix as I am. Radios are radios. They tend to have the same connectors. The K2 is missing an important one that is an absolute must for interfacing radios in a serious contest station. And unlike my grandfather's SX-71/AF-67, there are contesters interested in buying K2s now. 73 & HLNY, VR2BrettGraham > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Don replied (and I trust will not mind my keeping it on the list, as > > my intention is more than helping him): > > > > >Thanks for your analysis. > > > > > >One point though worthy of mentioning - the K2 will not produce RF until > > >keying takes place, so my solution does the job quite nicely by simply > > >inhibiting the keying. > > > > > >In many applications where the computer does both the keying and > > the 'PTT', > > >everything will sequence fine if the 'PTT' is simply not > > connected to the K2 > > >(but connected to everything else - The RF path will be > > completed before the > > >program begins keying). The only problem that will occur is > > when the K2 is > > >keyed directly by the paddles instead of through the computer control. > > > > > >Bottom line, many situations do not really need the CW PTT, but > > >unfortunately, SO2R operation where the steering is done through > > PTT is not > > >one of those situations. > > > > Effectively ANDing a 'PTT' line with the key line doesn't do much towards > > stopping the radio from transmitting when 'PTT' is unasserted if the radio > > is doing the keying. A possible situation for this is where the > > K2 is used > > as a remote base & one wants to have a fail-safe should one want to not > > keep transmitting into something that has gotten ugly (failed amp, > > antenna, antenna switch, etc). Even this radiosporting enthusiast can > > envision using his K2 with the KY command this way - I may one day > > soon only be able to operate with such a remote station & is one reason > > I bought a K2. > > > > Such a summary "unhappiness" alarm could also be used to > > implement the sort of positive control I think I would have to have > > on a remote base if I were to do this back in USA (though the rules may > > have changed since I left, it really is a good thing to do any way). > > > > I use a popular antenna matrix switching product that I think could tell > > me when it hasn't really switched due to how its way of doing interlock > > between its two ports (used for two radios) can become intermittent. I > > would like use this to stop _all_ of my radios from transmitting under > > _any_ circumstances when I get around to figuring out a way of putting > > an unhappy light in the matrix. > > > > Some folks do not use logging programs that send CW for them. A > > toggle or foot switch can just as easily drive switching of key, mic, > > PTT & audio between two rigs in an SO2R contesting station. Other > > folks - at one time, myself included - will have nothing other than a foot > > switch determining if their station is in transmit or receive mode. > > > > So like how radios might be used, there is more to CW 'PTT' to > > consider. That's why I didn't go further with the mod you have kindly > > put forward - it's better done in code. Another one high on my list is > > filter selection - anyone who has heard what after-market filters can > > do to a radio can probably appreciate what it's like to sit on an INRAD > > prototype for the K2 & not be able to use it. ;^( > > > > 73, VR2BrettGraham _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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