SSB low output
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Hi all,
I've got a K2/100 with a KSB2 that I've just installed and am trying out. My mic has an HC-5. I am aware that this element does not have low output for the K2. I've done the R14 mod, replacing it with a 10K resistor. It's working better than it was, but I still don't seem to be getting much more than about 10 watts or so, occasionally a bit more on peaks, and I have to speak quite loudly to get even this much. I can get 100 watts by whistling loudly into the mic. Any suggestions for what to check? Is 10K an ok value for R14? I'll probably eventually reverse the R14 mod and either do the KI6WX mod or build a mic preamp. Any thoughts on which is the better solution? -- 73, Brian VE7NGR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Sun, 2004-11-21 at 06:42, Brian Mury wrote:
> Any suggestions for what to check? Is 10K an ok value for R14? Hi Brian, I use a HC5 with my K2 and I modded R14 to 5k6. This appears to be optimal for my setup and I get plenty of audio now into the rig. I am using a headset though so the mic is quite close. If you are using a desk or stick mic you might want to build a preamp into it. There is a good design on the Elecraft site. 72/73 Ian -- Ian Maude G0VGS Morecambe Lancs UK | [hidden email] Sysop of GB7MBC, the Morecambe Bay Cluster Running Linux and DXSpider | K2 #4044 Find out about Summits on the Air! Visit the SOTA web site at http://www.sota.org.uk _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 11:12 +0000, Ian J Maude wrote:
> I use a HC5 with my K2 and I modded R14 to 5k6. This appears to be > optimal for my setup and I get plenty of audio now into the rig. I am > using a headset though so the mic is quite close. If you are using a > desk or stick mic you might want to build a preamp into it. There is a > good design on the Elecraft site. I am using a headset as well (it's a Heil Proset). Maybe I should just stick with CW. ;-) -- 73, Brian VE7NGR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Brian Mury wrote:
> It's working better than it was, but I still don't seem to be > getting much more than about 10 watts or so, occasionally a bit more on > peaks, and I have to speak quite loudly to get even this much. > > I can get 100 watts by whistling loudly into the mic. Are you measuring your output with a peak-reading wattmeter or scope? If not, you may see very low average indications for SSB. That doesn't mean that your peaks are not reaching 100w. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 09:39 -0800, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> Are you measuring your output with a peak-reading wattmeter or scope? If not, > you may see very low average indications for SSB. That doesn't mean that your > peaks are not reaching 100w. I'm using the cross-needle meter in my MFJ antenna tuner. I've tried it in both peak and average modes. I understand that it's not a true peak-reading meter, and that my peaks will be higher than what I see on the meter. I am seeing quite low output in both peak and average modes, much lower than I normally see from a 100W radio. I can put the meter in the low power range (30 W) and the needle never gets close to full deflection. Keep in mind this is speaking very loudly, really almost yelling. If I speak in a normal voice, the needle doesn't make it above 1 watt in either peak or average mode. Obviously this meter is not going to be very accurate in the 1 watt range, but what matters is that the needle is barely moving, even on the low power range. This does not seem right. -- 73, Brian VE7NGR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Brian,
Before you get too disillusioned with the performance of the K2/KSB2 on SSB output with the Heil microphone, what are you using to measure the TX output on SSB? It is essential to use an RF wattmeter that is capable of measuring true PEP, not just one of the joke instruments on the market that add a large capacitor across the meter movement when switched to so called PEP. A normal RF wattmeter will read very low on unprocessed SSB audio. You can go into the K2 menu to maximise the microphone gain and if necessary add a degree of audio compression which may help. Normally for HF SSB I use a PM-2000 peak reading wattmeter to get sensible results. MFJ have a dedicated PEP meter in their arsenal of equipment and it is also possible to adapt a normal wattmeter with an add on circuit to provide PEP measurement with an active peak hold circuit. There was a simple circuit using a single LM358 IC published in the RADCOM magazine in January 1989 that I have used to convert several of my wattmeters. E-mail me if you want to check that circuit out. Bob, G3VVT K2 #4168 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Bob and Vic make excellent observations about needing to measure TRUE 'peak'
output. One way you can do that with the K2 itself is to switch the bargraph to ALC mode (press/hold RF/ALC). Now the bargraph will show you when you've hit full power output as set by the POWER control and the ALC kicks in to turn down the level. It reads backwards in this mode, so you should see at least one bar on the extreme *right* flicker on voice peaks. On some bands (e.g. 40) you'll probably see several bars light up, indicating more ALC action. But as long as the right hand bar is flickering, your K2 is making all the requested by where you have the POWER control. If one bar doesn't flicker, you can figure out how close you are. Just try setting the POWER control below 100 watts. For example, if you don't get a flicker at 100 watts, try 90. If the first bar flickers at 90, then you're hitting at least 90 watts PEP. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: SSB low output
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Brian, I am using the Heil Proset Plus, without any mods to the K2/100 audio
input circuit, and get the full 100 watts on all bands. Is your power supply acting up by any chance? 73, Geoff GM4ESD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Mury" <[hidden email]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SSB low output _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 19:06 +0000, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote:
> Brian, I am using the Heil Proset Plus, without any mods to the K2/100 audio > input circuit, and get the full 100 watts on all bands. Is your power supply > acting up by any chance? Thanks for the suggestion. I think it's ok. I can get full power out in any mode, including SSB if I yell or whistle loud enough, or use my PK232 to drive it in FSK modes. Current draw looks ok too. What element to you have in your Proset Plus? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Hi
Just a thought , do you have the microphone attenuator turned on. I think it defaults to on when the K2 is first set up. SSBA should be at 2 and SSBC should be at 1-2 or 1-3. I have fallen into this trap a few times Don Brown KD5NDB ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Mury<mailto:[hidden email]> To: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SSB low output On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 19:06 +0000, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote: > Brian, I am using the Heil Proset Plus, without any mods to the K2/100 audio > input circuit, and get the full 100 watts on all bands. Is your power supply > acting up by any chance? Thanks for the suggestion. I think it's ok. I can get full power out in any mode, including SSB if I yell or whistle loud enough, or use my PK232 to drive it in FSK modes. Current draw looks ok too. What element to you have in your Proset Plus? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm<http://mailman.qth.net/subscribershtm> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com<http://www.elecraft.com/> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 14:15 -0600, Don Brown wrote:
> Just a thought , do you have the microphone attenuator turned on. I > think it defaults to on when the K2 is first set up. SSBA should be at > 2 and SSBC should be at 1-2 or 1-3. I have fallen into this trap a few > times Good thought, but no. I've tried all possible combinations of settings for SSBA and SSBC. I tried running my mic into my soundcard, and the soundcard out into the radio - quick and dirty mic amp! I got lots of RF power, though my signal was pretty nasty. I guess I just need to build an external preamp, though I'm not sure why my output without it is as low as it is. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: SSB low output
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Both HC-4 and HC-5, select with switch. Both OK for 100W, but I have yet had
to use the squawky "DX" one in battle. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Mury" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SSB low output > On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 19:06 +0000, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote: > > Brian, I am using the Heil Proset Plus, without any mods to the K2/100 audio > > input circuit, and get the full 100 watts on all bands. Is your power supply > > acting up by any chance? > > Thanks for the suggestion. I think it's ok. I can get full power out in > any mode, including SSB if I yell or whistle loud enough, or use my > PK232 to drive it in FSK modes. Current draw looks ok too. > > What element to you have in your Proset Plus? > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Brian,
Have you checked things on the KSB2 - particularly the resistors (RP5 too) and the soldering of the Speech processor/compressor chip. While the HC4/5 elements are about 10 dB less than most other mics, you ahould be able to make up for that with the SSBA = 3 and SSBC = 2-1 pr 3-1. It does sound like you have a bad connection somewhere. 73, Don W3FPR ----- Original Message ----- > > I guess I just need to build an external preamp, though I'm not sure why > my output without it is as low as it is. > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: SSB low output
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Hi Gil,
You've got the wrong guy !! It's Brian, VE7NGR, who is having the problem sad to say. I have had no problem at all with my Heil Proset Plus with the HC-4 and HC-5 elements - no preamp required and 100 watts all bands. But thank you for your good wishes. 73, Geoff GM4ESD ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilbert J Cross" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SSB low output > Hi , Geoff. I ,too, am using the HM10 with the HC-5 element. What > you are having a problem with is not uncommon with the Heil elements. > Fact: Heil remarks in their literature that both elements are purposely > -10 DB down so as to reduce back ground noise pickup. I fought this for a > long time and tried all the various mods to overcome the lack of gain. > Finally built the amp circuit from the Elecraft site. Just hay wired it > together and have it stuffed into the mic body. It now works fine. Good > luck Gil K8EAG > > > > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:22:54 -0000 "Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy" > <[hidden email]> writes: > > Both HC-4 and HC-5, select with switch. Both OK for 100W, but I have > > yet had > > to use the squawky "DX" one in battle. > > > > Geoff. > > > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Mon, 2004-22-11 at 00:14 +0000, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote:
> You've got the wrong guy !! It's Brian, VE7NGR, who is having the problem > sad to say. I have had no problem at all with my Heil Proset Plus with the > HC-4 and HC-5 elements - no preamp required and 100 watts all bands. But > thank you for your good wishes. I find it interesting that some people have good luck with HC-4 and HC-5 elements with not mods or preamps, while others have problems getting enough drive even with mods. Is there that much variation in the elements, the KSB2, or both? > > Hi , Geoff. I ,too, am using the HM10 with the HC-5 element. What > > you are having a problem with is not uncommon with the Heil elements. > > Fact: Heil remarks in their literature that both elements are purposely > > -10 DB down so as to reduce back ground noise pickup. I fought this for a > > long time and tried all the various mods to overcome the lack of gain. > > Finally built the amp circuit from the Elecraft site. Just hay wired it > > together and have it stuffed into the mic body. It now works fine. Good > > luck Gil K8EAG Thanks for the info, Gil. I've been worrying that perhaps I have a problem with my KSB2. It's reassuring to hear that I'm not the only one who couldn't get it to work even with the mod. I'll build the preamp and see how it works. I'm pretty busy at work for the next three weeks or so, so I don't know when I'll get it done, but I will report to the list with my results. Yet another reason to like CW... ;-) -- 73, Brian VE7NGR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: SSB low output
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Maybe I've been lucky or Heil tweaked something, but I don't think so. I
agree with Don, have a good look around KSB2, also checking resistor values. Incorrectly marked ones do appear sometimes. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Mury" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 1:04 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] SSB low output > > I find it interesting that some people have good luck with HC-4 and HC-5 > elements with not mods or preamps, while others have problems getting > enough drive even with mods. Is there that much variation in the > elements, the KSB2, or both? > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Brian!
Do you have another KSB2 you could lend from someone or another proset? I'm using the MH2 here and even with ssba1 and ssbc1 I can with high voice(not yelling!) get 100 watts out. Also see if FL1 is set to OPT1. And ??? Can it be that the bias resistor is touching ground? Tom LA1PHA _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
On Sun, 2004-21-11 at 17:45 -0500, W3FPR - Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Have you checked things on the KSB2 - particularly the resistors (RP5 too) > and the soldering of the Speech processor/compressor chip. While the HC4/5 > elements are about 10 dB less than most other mics, you ahould be able to > make up for that with the SSBA = 3 and SSBC = 2-1 pr 3-1. > > It does sound like you have a bad connection somewhere. Nah - I'm too good a builder for that to happen! ;-) Ok, so I pulled the KSB2 out to take a look anyway (helps to remove the screw first!). Looked over the bottom for solder joints. Everything looked good. Turned it over and started looking at the top for parts placement when I noticed pin 1 of the P1 connector was not soldered. Oops! Fixed that - but then looked at the schematic and noticed that it doesn't seem to be used by the KSB2 anyway (it's the 8R signal). I stuck it back in the K2 anyway to see what happens. I was plugging the KPA100 back in when I saw that the coax shield had pulled out of the AUX RF connector, so I fixed that too. It seems to be working ok now. I'm not sure when the AUX RF connection got broken, but it seems strange that I would get the full 100W out with a whistle or on CW (which I was) if it was broken. One more thing I just noticed while writing this. If I go into the menu and change the gain or compression settings, I can exit the menu by pressing the PTT, but the new setting DOES NOT take effect! This seems to work ok for other menu items (I haven't tested all of them). I'd gotten into the lazy habit of changing a setting, then just stepping on the footswitch and talking to try out the new setting. The lesson here is don't be lazy! :-) I'm still not getting quite as much mic gain as I would like, but I've got a fairly soft voice. I may still build that external preamp down the road. The important thing is it's working. Too late for sweepstakes, unfortunately... -- 73, Brian VE7NGR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Brian Mury-3
Hello Brian,
I've done a lot of experimenting with my K2 and the Heil HC5 element, and I think that some of the reasons for the many degrees of success using this element are related more to voice charactersitics than to anything else. The first thing to note is that the Heil HC5 has been deliberately designed to require relatively close talking. The rest of this is conjecture, but until I hear a better explanation, I'm sticking to it :-) Some folks (and I count myself among them, unfortunately) seem to have a higher than normal peak-to-average amplitude variation in their voice. As many have mentioned, you may find that indeed your ALC indicator shows that you are hitting 100 watts on voice peaks, however your average level may be very low - possibly as little as 10 watts or so. Unfortunately, very little usefull intelligence is transmitted during those 100w voice peaks so they aren't a whole lot of use. Additionally, the K2's compressor chip includes a noise gate, so a "knee" exists at the point where the action changes from noise gate to compressor. Below the knee, input from your microphone is actually attenuated (the assumption is that any low-level noise is probably undesirable background noise). Above the knee, it is amplified, although held below some maximum level. My normal speaking voice is probably lower, both in amplitude and pitch than lots of folks, so what ends up happening is the peaks continue to hit the 100watt level, and unless I shout, much of the rest of the level from the microphone ends up being below the knee and therefore attenuated. Also, the HC5 rolls off the low end rather quickly, so if your voice is lower-pitched to begin with, a lot of the energy from your voice won't make it past the element anyway. After much experimenting, including the building of a second KSB2, I ended up building the single transistor amplifier, the circuit diagram of which is available on the Elecraft website. This amp completely solved the problem. I now have plenty of audio, and have received quite a few compliments on the audio quality. So, my suggestion to you, is to take the time to build up that little preamp; you won't be disappointed. By the way, I now have two microphones with HC5 elements; one amplified, and the other 'stock'. I'd be happy to set up a sked if you'd like, so that you can hear the difference between the amplified, and non-amplified HC5 elements. 73, Dale WA8SRA _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Mon, 2004-22-11 at 20:56 -0500, Dale Boresz wrote:
> The first thing to note is that the Heil HC5 has been deliberately > designed to require relatively close talking. Got that boom mic right up to my lips! :-) > Additionally, the K2's compressor chip includes a noise gate, so a > "knee" exists at the point where the action changes from noise gate to > compressor. Below the knee, input from your microphone is actually > attenuated (the assumption is that any low-level noise is probably > undesirable background noise). Above the knee, it is amplified, although > held below some maximum level. My normal speaking voice is probably > lower, both in amplitude and pitch than lots of folks, so what ends up > happening is the peaks continue to hit the 100watt level, and unless I > shout, much of the rest of the level from the microphone ends up being > below the knee and therefore attenuated. I've noticed that behaviour as well. As long as I keep the volume of my voice up, it seems ok, but if I speak normally it sometimes seems to cut out on lows. > After much experimenting, including the building of a second KSB2, I > ended up building the single transistor amplifier, the circuit diagram > of which is available on the Elecraft website. This amp completely > solved the problem. I now have plenty of audio, and have received quite > a few compliments on the audio quality. So, my suggestion to you, is to > take the time to build up that little preamp; you won't be disappointed. FB Dale, I was already planning on building it. Maybe now I'll build it sooner! :-) > By the way, I now have two microphones with HC5 elements; one amplified, > and the other 'stock'. I'd be happy to set up a sked if you'd like, so > that you can hear the difference between the amplified, and > non-amplified HC5 elements. A sked would be fine. I'm free afternoons, evenings, and weekends. Hope you don't mind me shouting at you... :-) -- 73, Brian VE7NGR _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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