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Serial Port Question...

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NK7Z

Serial Port Question...

I have a question about serial ports and the K3... first let me set the
stage for the failures...

Setup:
I have a K3, (two RX), and a P3, (SVGA), connected to my Windows
machine, which is running a fully updated and patched version of XP,
using a RS-232 serial cable, and the built in serial card, at 38K. It
is a Dell machine.

Test Bed:
If I use HRD, latest free version, to move the K3 main tuning dial
around, using the mouse wheel to increment the 100 Hz digit, I have zero
issues, the movement is snappy, and quick, there is no lag between my
end of motion in moving the mouse wheel and the K3 arriving at its end
of motion in changing frequency. I.e. When I stop moving the mouse
wheel, the K3 is on frequency. Exactly as it was on my Pro III. Both
under HRD, AND MixW

Now, if I switch to MixW, again latest version etc., same com port, same
comport speed, in fact same settings as far as I can see for everything,
I get a very discernible lag in the move event concluding. It acts like
the K3 frequency is rate limited in how fast it can slew in frequency,
only when using MixW, and not when using HRD. Exact same setup, and no
issues on the Pro III I used to have.

I also have a very minor programming issue where by the the K3 fails to
fully program every channel using the K3 frequency management
software... I get the failed timeout error now and then...

All of this points directly to a serial port issue... However...

I have run this computer on many other pieces of hardware, (including a
Pro III, and Pro II), and had zero issues along this line. I have run
the same hardware, and the same software, configured exactly the same on
the Pro III, and a Pro II, with zero issues. I.e. I do not have the lag
issue on the Pro III, or Pro II. but do on the K3... Same hardware,
same configuration, and same software, same cables, etc...

No other issues with serial ports of any kind with the computer... All
running under stock windows XP fully updated.

Question:
Why does the K3 feel like the speed with which it changes frequency is
rate limited only under MixW, and not under HRD.

I am at a loss, and looking for suggestions here...

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Serial Port Question...

What is the command rate of MixW? Each program has it's own polling or
command rate and they can differ by a substantial amount.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-07-06 5:15 PM, David Cole wrote:

> I have a question about serial ports and the K3... first let me set the
> stage for the failures...
>
> Setup:
> I have a K3, (two RX), and a P3, (SVGA), connected to my Windows
> machine, which is running a fully updated and patched version of XP,
> using a RS-232 serial cable, and the built in serial card, at 38K. It
> is a Dell machine.
>
> Test Bed:
> If I use HRD, latest free version, to move the K3 main tuning dial
> around, using the mouse wheel to increment the 100 Hz digit, I have zero
> issues, the movement is snappy, and quick, there is no lag between my
> end of motion in moving the mouse wheel and the K3 arriving at its end
> of motion in changing frequency. I.e. When I stop moving the mouse
> wheel, the K3 is on frequency. Exactly as it was on my Pro III. Both
> under HRD, AND MixW
>
> Now, if I switch to MixW, again latest version etc., same com port, same
> comport speed, in fact same settings as far as I can see for everything,
> I get a very discernible lag in the move event concluding. It acts like
> the K3 frequency is rate limited in how fast it can slew in frequency,
> only when using MixW, and not when using HRD. Exact same setup, and no
> issues on the Pro III I used to have.
>
> I also have a very minor programming issue where by the the K3 fails to
> fully program every channel using the K3 frequency management
> software... I get the failed timeout error now and then...
>
> All of this points directly to a serial port issue... However...
>
> I have run this computer on many other pieces of hardware, (including a
> Pro III, and Pro II), and had zero issues along this line. I have run
> the same hardware, and the same software, configured exactly the same on
> the Pro III, and a Pro II, with zero issues. I.e. I do not have the lag
> issue on the Pro III, or Pro II. but do on the K3... Same hardware,
> same configuration, and same software, same cables, etc...
>
> No other issues with serial ports of any kind with the computer... All
> running under stock windows XP fully updated.
>
> Question:
> Why does the K3 feel like the speed with which it changes frequency is
> rate limited only under MixW, and not under HRD.
>
> I am at a loss, and looking for suggestions here...
>

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NK7Z

Re: Serial Port Question...

Both were set at 100 Hz per click on the mouse wheel... I believe that
is what you are asking.
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sun, 2014-07-06 at 17:45 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> What is the command rate of MixW? Each program has it's own polling or
> command rate and they can differ by a substantial amount.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2014-07-06 5:15 PM, David Cole wrote:
> > I have a question about serial ports and the K3... first let me set the
> > stage for the failures...
> >
> > Setup:
> > I have a K3, (two RX), and a P3, (SVGA), connected to my Windows
> > machine, which is running a fully updated and patched version of XP,
> > using a RS-232 serial cable, and the built in serial card, at 38K. It
> > is a Dell machine.
> >
> > Test Bed:
> > If I use HRD, latest free version, to move the K3 main tuning dial
> > around, using the mouse wheel to increment the 100 Hz digit, I have zero
> > issues, the movement is snappy, and quick, there is no lag between my
> > end of motion in moving the mouse wheel and the K3 arriving at its end
> > of motion in changing frequency. I.e. When I stop moving the mouse
> > wheel, the K3 is on frequency. Exactly as it was on my Pro III. Both
> > under HRD, AND MixW
> >
> > Now, if I switch to MixW, again latest version etc., same com port, same
> > comport speed, in fact same settings as far as I can see for everything,
> > I get a very discernible lag in the move event concluding. It acts like
> > the K3 frequency is rate limited in how fast it can slew in frequency,
> > only when using MixW, and not when using HRD. Exact same setup, and no
> > issues on the Pro III I used to have.
> >
> > I also have a very minor programming issue where by the the K3 fails to
> > fully program every channel using the K3 frequency management
> > software... I get the failed timeout error now and then...
> >
> > All of this points directly to a serial port issue... However...
> >
> > I have run this computer on many other pieces of hardware, (including a
> > Pro III, and Pro II), and had zero issues along this line. I have run
> > the same hardware, and the same software, configured exactly the same on
> > the Pro III, and a Pro II, with zero issues. I.e. I do not have the lag
> > issue on the Pro III, or Pro II. but do on the K3... Same hardware,
> > same configuration, and same software, same cables, etc...
> >
> > No other issues with serial ports of any kind with the computer... All
> > running under stock windows XP fully updated.
> >
> > Question:
> > Why does the K3 feel like the speed with which it changes frequency is
> > rate limited only under MixW, and not under HRD.
> >
> > I am at a loss, and looking for suggestions here...
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

tomb18

Re: Serial Port Question...

In reply to this post by NK7Z

Hi
One way to tell what is going on is to use a serial port monitor. Eltima has on that has a free trial.
You install it, start it and then select the comport you wish to monitor. Select terminal mode.
Then start the software you wish to monitor. Look at the commands before and after the software issues an FA00014200000 for example (that is a command to tune to 14.2 mhz. Also see if you see some kind of delay. Some of the other modes in the serial port monitor, can give timestamps too which might be useful.
Send an excerpt if you can do this and may be we can see something
73s Tom

-------- Original message --------
From: David Cole <[hidden email]>
Date: 06/07/2014 6:08 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Serial Port Question...

Both were set at 100 Hz per click on the mouse wheel... I believe that
is what you are asking.
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sun, 2014-07-06 at 17:45 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

NK7Z

Re: Serial Port Question...

HI,
Thank you for that suggestion! I will snapshot a small few moments of
data...

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sun, 2014-07-06 at 18:18 -0400, Tom wrote:

> Hi
> One way to tell what is going on is to use a serial port monitor.
> Eltima has on that has a free trial.
> You install it, start it and then select the comport you wish to
> monitor. Select terminal mode.
> Then start the software you wish to monitor. Look at the commands
> before and after the software issues an FA00014200000 for example
> (that is a command to tune to 14.2 mhz. Also see if you see some kind
> of delay. Some of the other modes in the serial port monitor, can give
> timestamps too which might be useful.
> Send an excerpt if you can do this and may be we can see something
> 73s Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: David Cole <[hidden email]>
> Date: 06/07/2014 6:08 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Serial Port Question...
>
>
> Both were set at 100 Hz per click on the mouse wheel... I believe
> that
> is what you are asking.
> --
> Thanks and 73's,
> For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
> www.nk7z.net
> for MixW support see;
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
> for Dopplergram information see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
> for MM-SSTV see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>
>
> On Sun, 2014-07-06 at 17:45 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > What is the command rate of MixW? Each program has it's own polling
> or
> > command rate and they can differ by a substantial amount.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> > On 2014-07-06 5:15 PM, David Cole wrote:
> > > I have a question about serial ports and the K3... first let me
> set the
> > > stage for the failures...
> > >
> > > Setup:
> > > I have a K3, (two RX), and a P3, (SVGA), connected to my Windows
> > > machine, which is running a fully updated and patched version of
> XP,
> > > using a RS-232 serial cable, and the built in serial card, at 38K.
> It
> > > is a Dell machine.
> > >
> > > Test Bed:
> > > If I use HRD, latest free version, to move the K3 main tuning dial
> > > around, using the mouse wheel to increment the 100 Hz digit, I
> have zero
> > > issues, the movement is snappy, and quick, there is no lag between
> my
> > > end of motion in moving the mouse wheel and the K3 arriving at its
> end
> > > of motion in changing frequency. I.e. When I stop moving the
> mouse
> > > wheel, the K3 is on frequency. Exactly as it was on my Pro III.
> Both
> > > under HRD, AND MixW
> > >
> > > Now, if I switch to MixW, again latest version etc., same com
> port, same
> > > comport speed, in fact same settings as far as I can see for
> everything,
> > > I get a very discernible lag in the move event concluding. It
> acts like
> > > the K3 frequency is rate limited in how fast it can slew in
> frequency,
> > > only when using MixW, and not when using HRD. Exact same setup,
> and no
> > > issues on the Pro III I used to have.
> > >
> > > I also have a very minor programming iss

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Serial Port Question...

In reply to this post by NK7Z

No, that's *not* what I was asking.

How many times per second do the particular programs send an "up
100 Hz" command to the radio? How quickly can they send commands?

Some programs store the "move up" or "move down" commands and pace
them out one every 100 ms or one every 250 ms or one every 500 ms.
The slower the program parcels out the commands, the greater the
lag.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-07-06 6:08 PM, David Cole wrote:
> Both were set at 100 Hz per click on the mouse wheel... I believe that
> is what you are asking.
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Serial Port Question...

Hi Joe,
OK I understand now, thanks for clearing that up... I will see if I can
locate that info in either program. I do have a serial capture from
both programs, and they do look vastly different... I am a bit reticent
to put them up here, due to size...
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sun, 2014-07-06 at 18:50 -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> No, that's *not* what I was asking.
>
> How many times per second do the particular programs send an "up
> 100 Hz" command to the radio? How quickly can they send commands?
>
> Some programs store the "move up" or "move down" commands and pace
> them out one every 100 ms or one every 250 ms or one every 500 ms.
> The slower the program parcels out the commands, the greater the
> lag.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2014-07-06 6:08 PM, David Cole wrote:
> > Both were set at 100 Hz per click on the mouse wheel... I believe that
> > is what you are asking.
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

tomb18

Re: Serial Port Question...

In reply to this post by NK7Z

Dave sent me a log of the serial port activity from MixW, showing the steady state and the situation when he is tuning using the software and the K3.

The steady state polling form MixW to the K3 consists of the commands:
IF; and FB;
So basically it is polling the radio for the transceiver information (IF) which includes info such as the VFO A frequency and other items and for the frequency of VFO B (FB;).
It continues to do this indefinitely.

However, when the frequency is changed in the software, then the programs issues the following command each time the frequency is changed:

FR0; FT0; FA00021014700

and then it continues to send these commands for as long as the frequency is requested to change.

In the example I was sent, dave changed the frequency from 21014700 until 21009100. During this time, 150 commands were issued to the K3 over a period of 5 seconds. When this was complete, it took an additional three seconds before a response was returned to a subsequent IF; command.

So, what does this indicate: First of all during the time that the frequency was being changed, no commands occurred to read the current frequency of the radio. That in itself may not necessarily be bad IF the program updates the VFO display in the program each time. Of course at the end of the update, if the radio did not keep up, the final frequency will change as soon as the new IF; command arrives.

Now, since it took a full 3 seconds after the sequence of frequency changes, it is pretty clear that the command rate of 100ms is too short. The program had to wait for all 150 commands to complete before it could get it’s updated frequency.

So, first thing is to increase the command rate in MixW to something higher. experimentation might be required. Ultimately though, if the display is not updated with the frequency during the changes, it might seem that the software can not keep up.

Second, I would look in the setup of MixW and see if there is an option to enable the AI1 command (AUTOINF). If not, the software may actually respond to it, but it should be documented. You can try to set CONFIG:AUTOINF = AUTO 1 in the tech mode entries but this can have consequences for software than does not support this.

The bottom line is you are polling too quick, but if the software does not update the display during the frequency updates you are out of luck.
No need to look at HRD, it “works”.
Hope this helps.
Tom
va2fsq.com

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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NK7Z

Re: Serial Port Question...

Tom,

Thank you for looking that over, it would have taken me a day or more as
I have not looked at serial output for a decade or more... :)

I will investigate MixW and see what I can find... If I find a fix, I
will post it here.

--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Mon, 2014-07-07 at 00:06 -0400, Tom Blahovici wrote:

> Dave sent me a log of the serial port activity from MixW, showing the
> steady state and the situation when he is tuning using the software
> and the K3.
>
>
> The steady state polling form MixW to the K3 consists of the commands:
> IF; and FB;
> So basically it is polling the radio for the transceiver information
> (IF) which includes info such as the VFO A frequency and other items
> and for the frequency of VFO B (FB;).
> It continues to do this indefinitely.
>
>
> However, when the frequency is changed in the software, then the
> programs issues the following command each time the frequency is
> changed:
>
>
> FR0; FT0; FA00021014700
>
>
> and then it continues to send these commands for as long as the
> frequency is requested to change.
>
>
> In the example I was sent, dave changed the frequency from 21014700
> until 21009100. During this time, 150 commands were issued to the K3
> over a period of 5 seconds. When this was complete, it took an
> additional three seconds before a response was returned to a
> subsequent IF; command.
>
>
> So, what does this indicate: First of all during the time that the
> frequency was being changed, no commands occurred to read the current
> frequency of the radio. That in itself may not necessarily be bad IF
> the program updates the VFO display in the program each time. Of
> course at the end of the update, if the radio did not keep up, the
> final frequency will change as soon as the new IF; command arrives.
>
>
> Now, since it took a full 3 seconds after the sequence of frequency
> changes, it is pretty clear that the command rate of 100ms is too
> short. The program had to wait for all 150 commands to complete
> before it could get it’s updated frequency.
>
>
> So, first thing is to increase the command rate in MixW to something
> higher. experimentation might be required. Ultimately though, if the
> display is not updated with the frequency during the changes, it might
> seem that the software can not keep up.
>
>
> Second, I would look in the setup of MixW and see if there is an
> option to enable the AI1 command (AUTOINF). If not, the software may
> actually respond to it, but it should be documented. You can try to
> set CONFIG:AUTOINF = AUTO 1 in the tech mode entries but this can have
> consequences for software than does not support this.
>
>
> The bottom line is you are polling too quick, but if the software does
> not update the display during the frequency updates you are out of
> luck.
> No need to look at HRD, it “works”.
> Hope this helps.
> Tom
> va2fsq.com
>