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Settings for CM500 on K3?

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Bugzilla from doc.evans@gmail.com

Settings for CM500 on K3?

I don't use SSB much, but I just bought the much-recommended Yamaha CM500
for those occasions when I venture up to that end of the bands.

Trouble is, after following the instructions on p. 28 of the K3 operating
manual, along with K7YC's suggestions in e-mail
<[hidden email]>, my PEP meter says I'm running
about 30W PEP output. So I've obviously done something wrong.

Could some kind soul who has the CM500 on a 100W K3 post the exact settings
they are using to get ~100W output (as measured by an external PEP meter)?

73 -- Doc N7DR

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

Doc,

I would strongly suggest you do the microphone setup to match your K3
rather than someone else's settings. The settings will depend on how
you talk into the mic, so this is an individual setting.
First turn the compression to zero, then increase the mic gain until you
see 6 to 7 bars on the ALC meter.
Than add compression as you like.

You can do all that in TEST mode. When adding compression, you can
listen to yourself on the monitor.

Try it and see what happens - I suspect you are not hitting the ALC hard
enough.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/13/2010 9:38 PM, D. R. Evans wrote:

> I don't use SSB much, but I just bought the much-recommended Yamaha CM500
> for those occasions when I venture up to that end of the bands.
>
> Trouble is, after following the instructions on p. 28 of the K3 operating
> manual, along with K7YC's suggestions in e-mail
> <[hidden email]>, my PEP meter says I'm running
> about 30W PEP output. So I've obviously done something wrong.
>
> Could some kind soul who has the CM500 on a 100W K3 post the exact settings
> they are using to get ~100W output (as measured by an external PEP meter)?
>

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Matt Zilmer

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

In reply to this post by Bugzilla from doc.evans@gmail.com

Hi Doc,

I second Don's advice. But here are some "starting points" that may
help.

- Set the mic gain to the high range. That's in the MAIN:MIC SEL
menu.

- Make sure the bias is turned on; it probably is or you wouldn't hear
anything.

- Start with MIC gain set to about 20 and see how that works. Adjust
CMP and MIC according to the instructions in the manual, watching ALC
- etc. FWIW, I found the MIC gain set to about 30 is right for my
voice here. YMMV.

- If you need to adjust the MIC gain up, be sure and listen to
yourself using a MON setting that allows you to hear your TX audio. TX
TEST mode works well for this; there's no need to do on-air tests at
first. Plus, if it sounds good to you it will probably sound good for
everyone else.

I just got CM500's working here this afternoon. The little electret
power box is handy in my case, because I use the rear panel MIC/SPKR
for room audio and the front panel MIC/PHONES sockets for the CM500. I
just replaced the 3.5mm cable/plug with a shielded cable with
MIC+/BIAS/GND signals and it all works fine.

73,
matt W6NIA
K3 #24

On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 19:38:20 -0600, you wrote:

>I don't use SSB much, but I just bought the much-recommended Yamaha CM500
>for those occasions when I venture up to that end of the bands.
>
>Trouble is, after following the instructions on p. 28 of the K3 operating
>manual, along with K7YC's suggestions in e-mail
><[hidden email]>, my PEP meter says I'm running
>about 30W PEP output. So I've obviously done something wrong.
>
>Could some kind soul who has the CM500 on a 100W K3 post the exact settings
>they are using to get ~100W output (as measured by an external PEP meter)?
>
> 73 -- Doc N7DR

Bugzilla from doc.evans@gmail.com

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don Wilhelm said the following at 09/13/2010 07:57 PM :

> First turn the compression to zero, then increase the mic gain until you
> see 6 to 7 bars on the ALC meter.
> Than add compression as you like.
>
> You can do all that in TEST mode. When adding compression, you can
> listen to yourself on the monitor.
>
> Try it and see what happens - I suspect you are not hitting the ALC hard
> enough.
>

That is exactly what I did, since that's what the manual says to do.
Everything looks and sounds fine on the K3 itself. It's when I look at the
external PEP meter that the problem becomes obvious.

Doc N7DR

--
Web: http://www.sff.net/people/N7DR

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Chuck - AE4CW

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

Doc,

What external PEP power meter are you using? Is it possible you have it set to read average power vs. peak power?

Chuck, AE4CW

---
Chuck, AE4CW

n7ws

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

In reply to this post by Bugzilla from doc.evans@gmail.com

You need an oscilloscope.

--- On Tue, 9/14/10, D. R. Evans <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: D. R. Evans <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Settings for CM500 on K3?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 9:20 AM
> Don Wilhelm said the following at
> 09/13/2010 07:57 PM :
>
> > First turn the compression to zero, then increase the
> mic gain until you
> > see 6 to 7 bars on the ALC meter.
> > Than add compression as you like.
> >
> > You can do all that in TEST mode. When adding
> compression, you can
> > listen to yourself on the monitor.
> >
> > Try it and see what happens - I suspect you are not
> hitting the ALC hard
> > enough.
> >
>
> That is exactly what I did, since that's what the manual
> says to do.
> Everything looks and sounds fine on the K3 itself. It's
> when I look at the
> external PEP meter that the problem becomes obvious.
>
> Doc N7DR
>
> --
> Web: http://www.sff.net/people/N7DR
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jim Brown-10

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:07:06 -0700 (PDT), Wes Stewart wrote:

>You need an oscilloscope.

Yes. Let me offer an explanation of what I think might be going on
with your PEP meter. First, ANY meter circuit, digital or analog, will
have some time constant, so there will be SOME averaging. I have a
couple of wattmeters that claim to read PEP, but neither of them is
ideal at doing so, because they are not fast enough.

Second, when you use the TXEQ settings I recommend, you are getting
rid of the wasted talk power in the lower octaves, and the CM500
itself produces less wasted talk power in those lower octaves than
many other mics. All of your TX power goes into the midrange, which
the brain uses for speech intelligibility. The power in those lower
octaves, because it is lower frequencies, will make a strong
contribution to the averaging that the PEP meter is doing, so when you
reduce that low octave power, the meter will read lower.

So, like Wes says, you need a scope.

Let me repeat my advice on setup. BEFORE setting front panel mic gain,
go to TXEQ and turn down the two lowest octaves as far as they go (-16
dB). Leave all the other octave bands set flat (OdB), or set them to
0dB if you have changed them for some other mic. Set the Mic Gain in
the menu to Low. NOW, follow the instructions in the K3 manual for
setting mic gain (the proper ALC reading when you talk with
Compression turned off), then turn up Compression to get the desired
amount as indicated on the front panel meter (but don't go more than
10dB of compression on peaks). THEN, get some on the air reports from
a "good listener" who has his/her radio set for wide SSB RX bandwidth
(a wide IF setting), and tweak the TXEQ settings if needed for YOUR
voice. If you have a deep or muddy voice, you might want to roll off a
bit of the third lowest octave and/or increase the two highest octaves
by a few dB.

BTW -- the only difference between setting up this mic and any other
mic is the TXEQ settings that correspond to the response of THAT mic
and YOUR voice, and the Mic Gain setting for that mic.

73, Jim Brown K9YC

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K6LMP

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

I recently acquired a very slightly used CM500 from a fellow ham who couldn't use it because the tight ear seals made his hearing aids squeal.

I've found it to be a very comfortable headset to use (wore it for many hours during last weekend's VHF contest) and after setting up the mike as described by Jim, I got "outstanding audio" reports from friends with whom I conducted audio checks before the contest started, and who know my voice from face to face conversation as well as over the air.

I have an MJF SWR/power meter that "sort of" shows peak readings by switching a capacitor into the circuit to capture the highest voltages, and the peaks, however imprecise on an absolute basis, are comparable on a relative basis to the peaks with two other mikes I have used (one a Heil, the other a studio type mike) with similar TXEQ settings. Only difference between what Jim recommends and my settings is that I knock the third octave down a few dB, because I have a relatively high pitched speaking voice (sang tenor in college choir).

The Wikipedia entry on "Voice Frequency" states: "The voiced speech of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to 180 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz[1][2]. Thus, the fundamental frequency of most speech falls below the bottom of the 'voice frequency' band" (that is, the 300 Hz to 3400 Hz band used in telephony). "However, enough of the harmonic series will be present for the missing fundamental to create the impression of hearing the fundamental tone."

So how does this apply to the K3 TXEQ settings?

The K3 transmit equalizer has eight bands. Per the K3 manual, "The center frequencies of the 8 audio EQ bands are 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 2400, and 3200 Hz." Clearly, the lowest band is irrelevant for human speech and can be knocked down to -16 dB without losing any speech. The second band, centered at 100 Hz, will partially cover the low end of the human male voice range, especially for males, but as stated above, you can knock out the primary frequency and still transmit intelligible speech because of the harmonics of the primary frequency. It might sound a little "tinny", but it will be fully intelligible. A female user of the K3 might want to knock the third equalizer band all the way down to -16 dB as well as the first two. These would be typical settings for SSB contesting where you want to maximize the modulated signal in the frequency band where it will have the most effect.

If you're a fan of "broadcast quality" AM rag-chewing, you'd definitely want to use different settings, probably "flat" except for the lowest band for males and the lowest two bands for females.

But, as others have said, the human ear is the best way to discern proper TXEQ settings. You can do it yourself with a good noise-sealing headphone set and the rig in TEST XMIT mode, or over the air to someone who knows your voice well.

Lew K6LMP

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David Christ

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

Good posting using quantitative reasoning not just qualitative
anecdotes. Provides a way for others to tailor it to their own
particular situation. It also cites references. This I think is a
model post.

David K0LUM

>
>The Wikipedia entry on "Voice Frequency" states: "The voiced speech
>of a typical adult male will have a fundamental frequency from 85 to
>180 Hz, and that of a typical adult female from 165 to 255 Hz[1][2].
>Thus, the fundamental frequency of most speech falls below the
>bottom of the 'voice frequency' band" (that is, the 300 Hz to 3400
>Hz band used in telephony). "However, enough of the harmonic series
>will be present for the missing fundamental to create the impression
>of hearing the fundamental tone."
>
>So how does this apply to the K3 TXEQ settings?
>
>The K3 transmit equalizer has eight bands. Per the K3 manual, "The
>center frequencies of the 8 audio EQ bands are 50, 100, 200, 400,
>800, 1600, 2400, and 3200 Hz." Clearly, the lowest band is
>irrelevant for human speech and can be knocked down to -16 dB
>without losing any speech. The second band, centered at 100 Hz,
>will partially cover the low end of the human male voice range,
>especially for males, but as stated above, you can knock out the
>primary frequency and still transmit intelligible speech because of
>the harmonics of the primary frequency. It might sound a little
>"tinny", but it will be fully intelligible. A female user of the K3
>might want to knock the third equalizer band all the way down to -16
>dB as well as the first two. These would be typical settings for SSB
>contesting where you want to maximize the modulated signal in the
>frequency band where it will have the most effect.
>
>If you're a fan of "broadcast quality" AM rag-chewing, you'd
>definitely want to use different settings, probably "flat" except
>for the lowest band for males and the lowest two bands for females.
>
>But, as others have said, the human ear is the best way to discern
>proper TXEQ settings. You can do it yourself with a good
>noise-sealing headphone set and the rig in TEST XMIT mode, or over
>the air to someone who knows your voice well.
>
>Lew K6LMP
>
>

Nr4c

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

In reply to this post by Bugzilla from doc.evans@gmail.com

I just re-checked my K3, and I am set to "MENU/MIC SEL=rP.l biAS", MIC Gain
knob is 17, CMP is 22. I have the first 3 sliders in the TX EQUAL most of
the way down (-12 to -16) and the top 2 up maybe +3.

When I had an external LDG tuner with an analog meter, it would read low
output, but when I switched to one of the newer models with the LED power
indicator, it hits 80 to 100 watts consistently. Pretty well matches the
power indicator on the K3 panel. I get 7-8 bars of Audio/ALC and 10+ on the
Compressions scale. I'm getting good audio reports from contacts.

...bc

-----Original Message-----
From: D. R. Evans [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Settings for CM500 on K3?

Don Wilhelm said the following at 09/13/2010 07:57 PM :

AC7AC

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

In reply to this post by David Christ

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

K6LMP

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

Agreed, your voice over the air and through somebody else's radio will not sound the same as what you hear in your own headphones. But wouldn't you agree that what you hear in your headphones in "Test" mode will be sufficient to tell you if your audio is badly overdriven and clipped, weak, distorted, excessively compressed, etc. What you hear in your headset will be a mix of "the good" through your bones and "the bad" that goes out over the air. If it's really bad, you will hear it.

Getting a playback made through a separate radio is always better. But self-listening is better than just watching indicator bars, too.

Lew K6LMP

On Sep 14, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> It's not possible to really know how you sound to others listening to your
> own voice as you speak, no matter what kind of phones you use. Much of the
> sound we hear when we speak arrives at our ears through the estuation tubes
> connecting our sinuses with our ears and through bone conduction in our
> heads. Those paths heavily modify our voices as we hear them. That's why
> people are usually surprised to learn they are listening to themselves when
> they hear a recording of their voice for the first time.
>
> Ron AC7AC

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

Lew,

You could make a recording of the monitor output from the K3 and
determine for yourself if it sounds good or bad. I would suggest that
is better than reports from others who are not familiar with your
voice. If you are not familiar with how your own voice sounds, then ask
the XYL or some other family member to listen to the recording.

I have successfully used that technique (XYL evaluating) to choose among
microphone choices for the K3. Because of that, I have chosen the
Elecraft MD2 (not currently available) as my microphone of choice.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/14/2010 7:07 PM, Lew Phelps K6LMP wrote:

> Agreed, your voice over the air and through somebody else's radio will not sound the same as what you hear in your own headphones. But wouldn't you agree that what you hear in your headphones in "Test" mode will be sufficient to tell you if your audio is badly overdriven and clipped, weak, distorted, excessively compressed, etc. What you hear in your headset will be a mix of "the good" through your bones and "the bad" that goes out over the air. If it's really bad, you will hear it.
>
> Getting a playback made through a separate radio is always better. But self-listening is better than just watching indicator bars, too.
>
> Lew K6LMP
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>
>> It's not possible to really know how you sound to others listening to your
>> own voice as you speak, no matter what kind of phones you use. Much of the
>> sound we hear when we speak arrives at our ears through the estuation tubes
>> connecting our sinuses with our ears and through bone conduction in our
>> heads. Those paths heavily modify our voices as we hear them. That's why
>> people are usually surprised to learn they are listening to themselves when
>> they hear a recording of their voice for the first time.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>

AC7AC

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Bugzilla from doc.evans@gmail.com

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

Ron D'Eau Claire said the following at 09/14/2010 06:02 PM :
> I agree with both of you on this. I thought the discussion was about
> optimizing the audio.

The question I asked was about power output. There have been some helpful
replies and on off the reflector (and I have a plan of action now) but the
thread seems to have transformed itself into another subject entirely. It
was quite an elegant hijack, really :-)

Doc N7DR

--
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Settings for CM500 on K3?

In reply to this post by Nr4c

Bill,

In other words, an analog "peak reading" wattmeter cannot be trusted
until it has proven its worth.
The same can be said of all instruments. Do not take the meter readings
at face value. There can be logical explanations for differences in the
readings, so do not panic - investigate. The best advice I ever heard
was "technician, know your tools, and know their limitations". Many
measurement devices cannot be assumed to be correct unless they are
proven at the parameters that you are trying to measure. Sorry to say,
but all things that seem equal are NOT - do not assume, validate instead.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/14/2010 3:11 PM, Bill Conkling wrote:

> I just re-checked my K3, and I am set to "MENU/MIC SEL=rP.l biAS", MIC Gain
> knob is 17, CMP is 22. I have the first 3 sliders in the TX EQUAL most of
> the way down (-12 to -16) and the top 2 up maybe +3.
>
> When I had an external LDG tuner with an analog meter, it would read low
> output, but when I switched to one of the newer models with the LED power
> indicator, it hits 80 to 100 watts consistently. Pretty well matches the
> power indicator on the K3 panel. I get 7-8 bars of Audio/ALC and 10+ on the
> Compressions scale. I'm getting good audio reports from contacts.
>
> ...bc
>