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Signal / RF generator

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n0jrn

Signal / RF generator

Gang: Considering the purchase of a signal generator for
aligning the projects in the shack.

Looking on e-bay shows several low cost options. Most are pretty old and
likely in need of some work.

SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using.

IF your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options are
you using ???

Was there a reason you choice the unit you have over some other ????

Just curious

73 Jerry N0JRN

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Phil Salas

Re: Signal / RF generator

"SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using. IF
your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options are you
using ???"

I've been using antenna analyzers as signal generators. The output levels
are normally AGC controlled and are pretty accurate. I started with a
MFJ-259B which worked OK, but it does drift around a bit so you need to
externally pwer it and let it settle down a bit. Now my Array Solutions
AIM4170C gives me a great signal generator good for 5khz-170 MHz (plus, of
course, a great antenna analyzer). I use a MFJ-762 step attenuator with a
home-brew fixed attenuator to give me all the range I need. An article on
some of this is in the "Measurements" section of my website at www.ad5x.com.

Phil - AD5X

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Craig Smith

Re: Signal / RF generator

The most often used signal generator here is also an AIM4170 from Array
Solutions. Indeed, it is the most useful single piece of test equipment I
have. Great for component measurements in addition to being a superb
antenna analyzer.

For more $$, their new 2 port VNA also offers higher output levels plus
programmable level settings when used as a signal generator.

73 Craig AC0DS

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Jack Smith-6

Re: Signal / RF generator

In reply to this post by n0jrn

Pair of HP 8657A synthesized generators 100 KHz - 1024 MHz
Pair of HP 8640B analog w/ lock generators, one with internal doubler
(1024 MHz) and reverse power protection
Panasonic VP8191A synthesized 100 KHz - 135 MHz

8640B is quite plentiful, and when properly working is very hard to
beat for phase noise and all around use. However, these are 30+ years
old and are notorious for bad switches which are works of art involving
circular PCB and spring fingers, custom made by HP. If you are
mechanically inclined and have the patience to work on them, the
switches can be repaired.

HP made several "moderately priced" synthesized generators that show up
frequently, 8656A is not recommended as the specs are marginal and they
use a mechanical (relay) controlled attenuator that may be worn out if
the particular unit you buy was exercised enough.

HP8657A and B. I have a pair of A units and they are fine, if you
understand their limits. The main limit is that they have spurious
products. Some nearby the carrier from 120 Hz noise. Others further
away, such as at integer multiples of 1 MHz. Phase noise is so-so. B
units are better than A units. Difficult to use if you want to test
close in IP because phase noise and 120 Hz spurs and discrete
synthesizer spurs can interfere with your measurements.

HP8642A. Don't have one but been thinking about buying a pair. Supposed
to be major improvement over the 8657A and B in terms of phase noise
and synthesizer spurs. Appear on E-bay in the $1K to $2.5K range.

Anyone with hands-on experience with the 8642A care to comment?

If you don't mind the inconvenience, HP generators with the RF output
and modulation input appearing only on the rear panel (used in computer
controlled arrangements) are generally cheaper than ones with the more
normal front panel connectors.

Jack K8ZOA
www.cliftonlaboratories.com

On 1/31/2010 1:58 PM, n0jrn wrote:

> Gang: Considering the purchase of a signal generator for
> aligning the projects in the shack.
>
> Looking on e-bay shows several low cost options. Most are pretty old and
> likely in need of some work.
>
> SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using.
>
> IF your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options are
> you using ???
>
> Was there a reason you choice the unit you have over some other ????
>
> Just curious
>
> 73 Jerry N0JRN
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Signal / RF generator

In reply to this post by Phil Salas

Since the question was about what signal generators we have, I thought I
would add the list of what I have here - some have specific purposes
while others are general purpose.

I have several signal generators. The two most important properties of
a signal generator (for me) are frequency stability and clean sine-wave
output. If one has attenuators, then control of the output level is not
a requirement as long as the generator level is steady.
Generators that I have available
- A homebrew generator with about 10 dBm output (variable in steps down
to about -20 dBm - the design is the dual range generator shown in
Experimental Methods for RF Design. This was built in an ARC-5
transmitter frame so it has mechanical stability lots of bandspread with
the geared tuning capacitor(s) drive. and covers from about 3 MHz to 50 MHz.
- A DDS vfo that is controlled by the parallel port on the workshop
computer 100 Hz to 30 MHz in 1 Hz steps. Very stable and no warm-up
drift. No level adjustment on the output, uses the AmQRP DDS kit as its
basis.
- A high level generator as shown in the K1 and K2 manuals
(Troubleshooting section). I used a plug-in crystal so I can change
input frequencies easily.
- The Elecraft XG2 for calibrating S-meters and doing MDS related
measurements.
- An HP8640B - this is my main workhorse generator, it has very low
phase noise, and is quite stable after a 2 hour warmup period plus it
has AM and FM modulation and provisions for sweeping it if required. It
goes down to 500 kHz and up to 512 MHz. It is very well shielded so
there is no leakage and the output level can be adjusted from a high of
+23 dBm to -140 dBm with its internal attenuator.
- In addition, I have my K2 and a few QRP transmitters which can also
serve as a high level signal generator within the ham bands, and yes, I
can use the output from my MFJ259B or my Micro908 antenna analyzers as a
useful signal source in many cases. The generator I choose depends on
what I am trying to accomplish.

Get a copy of Experimental Methods in RF Design and turn to the
Measurements chapter if you have a mind to build a generator, several
are detailed there.

I might also mention that I have a LOT of 28.322 MHz oscillators if
anyone wants to use one as a base for a signal generator (think about a
divider followed by a Low Pass Filter. I can mail one to you for $3.

73,
Don W3FPR

> "SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using. IF
> your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options are you
> using ???"
>
>
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Matt Zilmer

Re: Signal / RF generator

In reply to this post by Phil Salas

I have a Singer CE-6 (also known as Gerch or Gurch). The best sig gen
I have here is an HP8656B with the high accuracy TCXO, followed by a
Kay 0-100 dB step attenuator. The CE-6 is really a service monitor,
and has a sig gen from 10 MHz through 1.2 GHz. The HP sig gen goes up
to 990 MHz, but it's a lot more accurate and much easier to calibrate
than the CE-6.

You can get either of these on eBay at fire sale prices. Caution:
They're both heavy as !#@.

73,
matt W6NIA
K3 #24

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 13:38:04 -0600, you wrote:

>"SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using. IF
>your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options are you
>using ???"
>
>I've been using antenna analyzers as signal generators. The output levels
>are normally AGC controlled and are pretty accurate. I started with a
>MFJ-259B which worked OK, but it does drift around a bit so you need to
>externally pwer it and let it settle down a bit. Now my Array Solutions
>AIM4170C gives me a great signal generator good for 5khz-170 MHz (plus, of
>course, a great antenna analyzer). I use a MFJ-762 step attenuator with a
>home-brew fixed attenuator to give me all the range I need. An article on
>some of this is in the "Measurements" section of my website at www.ad5x.com.
>
>Phil - AD5X
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [qrp-l.org] Signal / RF generator

In reply to this post by n0jrn

Jerry,

I answered on the Elecraft reflector, but will repeat it here for those
interested.

Since the question was about what signal generators we have, I thought I
would add the list of what I have here - some have specific purposes
while others are general purpose.

I have several signal generators. The two most important properties of
a signal generator (for me) are frequency stability and clean sine-wave
output. If one has attenuators, then control of the output level is not
a requirement as long as the generator level is steady.
Generators that I have available
- A homebrew generator with about 10 dBm output (variable in steps down
to about -20 dBm - the design is the dual range generator shown in
Experimental Methods for RF Design. This was built in an ARC-5
transmitter frame so it has mechanical stability lots of bandspread with
the geared tuning capacitor(s) drive. and covers from about 3 MHz to 50
MHz.
- A DDS vfo that is controlled by the parallel port on the workshop
computer 100 Hz to 30 MHz in 1 Hz steps. Very stable and no warm-up
drift. No level adjustment on the output, uses the AmQRP DDS kit as its
basis.
- A high level generator as shown in the K1 and K2 manuals
(Troubleshooting section). I used a plug-in crystal so I can change
input frequencies easily.
- The Elecraft XG2 for calibrating S-meters and doing MDS related
measurements.
- An HP8640B - this is my main workhorse generator, it has very low
phase noise, and is quite stable after a 2 hour warmup period plus it
has AM and FM modulation and provisions for sweeping it if required. It
goes down to 500 kHz and up to 512 MHz. It is very well shielded so
there is no leakage and the output level can be adjusted from a high of
+23 dBm to -140 dBm with its internal attenuator.
- In addition, I have my K2 and a few QRP transmitters which can also
serve as a high level signal generator within the ham bands, and yes, I
can use the output from my MFJ259B or my Micro908 antenna analyzers as a
useful signal source in many cases. The generator I choose depends on
what I am trying to accomplish.

Get a copy of Experimental Methods in RF Design and turn to the
Measurements chapter if you have a mind to build a generator, several
are detailed there.

I might also mention that I have a LOT of 28.322 MHz oscillators if
anyone wants to use one as a base for a signal generator (think about a
divider followed by a Low Pass Filter. I can mail one to you for $3.

73,
Don W3FPR

n0jrn wrote:

> Gang: Considering the purchase of a signal generator for
> aligning the projects in the shack.
>
> Looking on e-bay shows several low cost options. Most are pretty old
> and likely in need of some work.
>
> SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using.
>
> IF your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options
> are you using ???
>
> Was there a reason you choice the unit you have over some other ????
>
> Just curious
>
> 73 Jerry N0JRN
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.qrpedia.com/
> A place for QRP homebrewers to share their projects with the world.
>
> http://mail.qrp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/qrp-l_qrp-l.org
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2659 - Release Date: 01/31/10 01:39:00
>
>

Don Nelson

Re: Signal / RF generator

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On 1/31/2010 1:55 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Since the question was about what signal generators we have, I thought I
> would add the list of what I have here - some have specific purposes
> while others are general purpose.
>
> I have several signal generators. The two most important properties of
> a signal generator (for me) are frequency stability and clean sine-wave
> output. If one has attenuators, then control of the output level is not
> a requirement as long as the generator level is steady.
> Generators that I have available
> - A homebrew generator with about 10 dBm output (variable in steps down
> to about -20 dBm - the design is the dual range generator shown in
> Experimental Methods for RF Design. This was built in an ARC-5
> transmitter frame so it has mechanical stability lots of bandspread with
> the geared tuning capacitor(s) drive. and covers from about 3 MHz to 50 MHz.
> - A DDS vfo that is controlled by the parallel port on the workshop
> computer 100 Hz to 30 MHz in 1 Hz steps. Very stable and no warm-up
> drift. No level adjustment on the output, uses the AmQRP DDS kit as its
> basis.
> - A high level generator as shown in the K1 and K2 manuals
> (Troubleshooting section). I used a plug-in crystal so I can change
> input frequencies easily.
> - The Elecraft XG2 for calibrating S-meters and doing MDS related
> measurements.
> - An HP8640B - this is my main workhorse generator, it has very low
> phase noise, and is quite stable after a 2 hour warmup period plus it
> has AM and FM modulation and provisions for sweeping it if required. It
> goes down to 500 kHz and up to 512 MHz. It is very well shielded so
> there is no leakage and the output level can be adjusted from a high of
> +23 dBm to -140 dBm with its internal attenuator.
> - In addition, I have my K2 and a few QRP transmitters which can also
> serve as a high level signal generator within the ham bands, and yes, I
> can use the output from my MFJ259B or my Micro908 antenna analyzers as a
> useful signal source in many cases. The generator I choose depends on
> what I am trying to accomplish.
>
> Get a copy of Experimental Methods in RF Design and turn to the
> Measurements chapter if you have a mind to build a generator, several
> are detailed there.
>
> I might also mention that I have a LOT of 28.322 MHz oscillators if
> anyone wants to use one as a base for a signal generator (think about a
> divider followed by a Low Pass Filter. I can mail one to you for $3.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
>
>
>> "SO figure I would query the group to see what everyone else is using. IF
>> your using a signal / RF generator, what brand, model and options are you
>> using ???"
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2659 - Release Date: 01/31/10 06:39:00
>
>

Don,

Thank you for the description of the signal generators that you use. The
book "Experimental Methods in RF Design" you reference for one generator
design is an ARRL publication and is available from ARRL for $49.95. The
ARRL web page is
http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?words=Experimental+Methods+in+RF+Design.

Do be wary of Amazon for they are offering the same book for from $500
to $1100 as can be seen here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0872598799/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all.
I was unable to figure out how to let Amazon know of their mistake.

Don, N0YE
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Signal / RF generator

WOW! I think I will sell mine at Amazon.com and with the proceeds buy 9
from ARRL - sell 8 of them at Amazon and I will have the price of a
fully loaded K3 in the profit! :-) - so I can have a 2nd K3 after
all! Really don't need it, but what the heck.

As a sidenote there was a similar statement about price of the W1FB
Notebooks on QRP-L.org. I have 3 of them, so I will now be keeping them
in a safe place.

73,
Don W3FPR

Don Nelson wrote:

> Don,
> Thank you for the description of the signal generators that you use. The
> book "Experimental Methods in RF Design" you reference for one generator
> design is an ARRL publication and is available from ARRL for $49.95. The
> ARRL web page is
> http://www.arrl.org/catalog/?words=Experimental+Methods+in+RF+Design.
>
> Do be wary of Amazon for they are offering the same book for from $500
> to $1100 as can be seen here:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0872598799/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all.
> I was unable to figure out how to let Amazon know of their mistake.
>
> Don, N0YE
>
>

n0jrn

Re: Signal / RF generator

In reply to this post by n0jrn

Hi Tom:

Thanks to you and all others for your replies. Seems the HP's are
everyone's favorite.

Your right about the price. Much too high for my use and limited needs. My
259B does well to create a signal but I fear I may need to leave it on for
hours before use to get it to settle down.

I don't have another HF rig in the house these days. That's interesting
since I had 7 of them about this time last year. :-)

Not sure what I'll do at this point. Even if one of the HP8640's did come
up at a good price, it's still much too big for my use.

SO, I'm on the hunt for something with a small footprint, good attenuation,
good coverage up to about 150 Megs,
great stability all for around $100.00 ( or less )

Kind of sounds like a TV commercial I've seen lately. LOL

Again, thanks to all:

73 Jerry N0JRN

> Hi Jerry:
>
> Around here, the 'choice' seems to be the H-P 8640B with the H-P
> 8654B being a somewhat lesser choice (more phase noisy, I'm
> told). I've
> been looking for an 8640B for a while, but while they
> used to sell for around $300, they now seem to be going for upwards
> of $450 which his a bit steep for me, given my somewhat limited 'needs'.
>
> For most of my 'sig gen' needs (which usually do NOT require a
> 'calibrated' level output, but more importantly an accurate signal
> frequency, I use the K3 (or my TS-950SD) as the signal source (into a
> dummy load, of course).
>
> 73,
>
> Tom Hammond N0SS

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Signal / RF generator

Jerry,

Take a look at http://wb6dhw.com/index.html. It is a kit (or just
boards if you prefer). According to the info I received, Dave says he
is about to finish the firmware for the standalone signal generator, it
has output level control, has modulation capability and also sweep
capability (with provisions for triggering the 'scope and providing a
reference blip on the second channel. It also has an optional power
meter, so it can be used as a spectrum analyzer. Firmware loads from a
USB port.

I am thinking of building one myself for a compact portable standalone
signal generator. The price is within your budget.

73,
Don W3FPR

n0jrn wrote:

> Hi Tom:
>
> Thanks to you and all others for your replies. Seems the HP's are
> everyone's favorite.
>
> Your right about the price. Much too high for my use and limited needs. My
> 259B does well to create a signal but I fear I may need to leave it on for
> hours before use to get it to settle down.
>
> I don't have another HF rig in the house these days. That's interesting
> since I had 7 of them about this time last year. :-)
>
> Not sure what I'll do at this point. Even if one of the HP8640's did come
> up at a good price, it's still much too big for my use.
>
> SO, I'm on the hunt for something with a small footprint, good attenuation,
> good coverage up to about 150 Megs,
> great stability all for around $100.00 ( or less )
>
> Kind of sounds like a TV commercial I've seen lately. LOL
>
> Again, thanks to all:
>
> 73 Jerry N0JRN
>
>
>> Hi Jerry:
>>
>> Around here, the 'choice' seems to be the H-P 8640B with the H-P
>> 8654B being a somewhat lesser choice (more phase noisy, I'm
>> told). I've
>> been looking for an 8640B for a while, but while they
>> used to sell for around $300, they now seem to be going for upwards
>> of $450 which his a bit steep for me, given my somewhat limited 'needs'.
>>
>> For most of my 'sig gen' needs (which usually do NOT require a
>> 'calibrated' level output, but more importantly an accurate signal
>> frequency, I use the K3 (or my TS-950SD) as the signal source (into a
>> dummy load, of course).
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Tom Hammond N0SS
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2662 - Release Date: 02/01/10 07:37:00
>
>