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Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

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Darwin, Keith

Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

What is this output? Is it a source or sync? It it a switched 5V logic level or is it a relay closure line that switches from open to short?

- Keith N1AS -

- K3 711 -

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Darwin, Keith

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

So I could use it to drive my practice oscillator, ea ? Is it active when the rig is in TX Test mode?

- Keith N1AS -

- K3 711 -

From: Mel Farrer [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:05 PM
To: Darwin, Keith
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

It is a T-R relay capable of 200 VDC @ 5 A.

Mel

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, Darwin, Keith <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Darwin, Keith <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?
To: [hidden email]
Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 8:57 AM

What is this output? Is it a source or sync? It it a switched 5V logic level or is it a relay closure line that switches from open to short?

- Keith N1AS -

- K3 711 -
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Kieth,

From page 17 of the manual
"KEY OUT (RCA/Phono) is the amplifier T-R relay
keying output, capable of keying up to +200VDC
@ 5A."

KEYOUT-LP at pin 10 of the ACC connector is similar, but the max voltage
is lower and it is limited to 10 ma.

73,
Don W3FPR

Darwin, Keith wrote:

> What is this output? Is it a source or sync? It it a switched 5V
> logic level or is it a relay closure line that switches from open to
> short?
>
> - Keith N1AS -
> - K3 711 -
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W6NEK

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Hi Keith,
>From the K3 Owners Manual (Page 17):
KEY OUT (RCA/Phono) is the (linear) amplifier T-R relay keying output,
capable of keying up to +200VDC @ 5A.

Manual Index "KEY OUT": Pages 17, 19, 57

Best 73,
Frank - W6NEK

----- Original Message -----
From: Darwin, Keith
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:57 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

What is this output? Is it a source or sync? It it a switched 5V logic
level or is it a relay closure line that switches from open to short?

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

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Darwin, Keith

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Yea, I knooooww, but I'm a SW person so I sometimes get lost in the EE
details, even when they are very basic.

By "T-R Relay keying output" I guess it means it is a relay that can be
used to control the T/R switching of an external amp. In other words,
the KEY OUT jack acts like a switch, open / closed. The Amp would have
a TR line that would be providing a voltage. When the K3 KEY OUT goes
to "closed", the Amplifier's TR line would be pulled to ground and this
would tell the amp to switch to TX. Yes?

The fact it is labeled as an output confuses me a bit, making me think
the K3 is sending some voltage, but the K3 sending 1KW (200 v @ 5 amps)
makes no sense.

I'm just hoping it can be used to make my old Heathkit code oscillator
beep when I send CW with the K3.

Or maybe I can use it to turn my coffee pot on :-)

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]

From page 17 of the manual
"KEY OUT (RCA/Phono) is the amplifier T-R relay keying output, capable
of keying up to +200VDC @ 5A."

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Darwin, Keith

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

There we go, now I get it! That is what I was assuming but there was enough doubt in my brain that I wasn't sure.

Tnx & 73!

- Keith N1AS -

- K3 711 -

From: Dave Gilbert [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:47 PM
To: Darwin, Keith
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

Think of it this way. Just as in software, "Out" refers to the flow of data or control. The terminology doesn't require a source of voltage ... only a "direction of command".

In this case, the control element is a relay so electrically it's just a switch that closes whenever the rig is transmitting.

73,
Dave AB7E

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Yes - and it is an output because it is the K3 that making a condition
available (switch closure) to the outside world. An input is something
coming from the outside world that would control the K3. The K3 'sends'
either an open circuit or a conducting condition - it is a HEXFET
driving this output - no relays are used in the K3 T/R switching or keying.

I am puzzled about why you would want to connect your code practice
oscillator to this output. If you want code practice, just put the K3
into TX TEST and you will hear sidetone from the K3 as you key it - no
need for the external oscillator - but of course, if you 'just want to
do it', then by all means go ahead with it.

73,
Don W3FPR

Darwin, Keith wrote:

> Yea, I knooooww, but I'm a SW person so I sometimes get lost in the EE
> details, even when they are very basic.
>
> By "T-R Relay keying output" I guess it means it is a relay that can be
> used to control the T/R switching of an external amp. In other words,
> the KEY OUT jack acts like a switch, open / closed. The Amp would have
> a TR line that would be providing a voltage. When the K3 KEY OUT goes
> to "closed", the Amplifier's TR line would be pulled to ground and this
> would tell the amp to switch to TX. Yes?
>
> The fact it is labeled as an output confuses me a bit, making me think
> the K3 is sending some voltage, but the K3 sending 1KW (200 v @ 5 amps)
> makes no sense.
>
> I'm just hoping it can be used to make my old Heathkit code oscillator
> beep when I send CW with the K3.
>
> Or maybe I can use it to turn my coffee pot on :-)
>
> - Keith N1AS -
> - K3 711 -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
>
> From page 17 of the manual
> "KEY OUT (RCA/Phono) is the amplifier T-R relay keying output, capable
> of keying up to +200VDC @ 5A."
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1909 - Release Date: 1/22/2009 7:08 AM
>
>

Darwin, Keith

Why? For Ducking. (RE: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?)

-----Original Message-----
I am puzzled about why you would want to connect your code practice
oscillator to this output. If you want code practice, just put the K3
into TX TEST and you will hear sidetone from the K3 as you key it - no
need for the external oscillator - but of course, if you 'just want to
do it', then by all means go ahead with it.

73,
Don W3FPR
--------------------------

Why? To set up a ducking test of course :-) Here's the plan.

Set the K3 MON level set to zero (no sidetone). KEY OUT connects to the
code oscillator which feeds the sidechain input on my external
compressor. Feed the K3 audio into the compressor main input and set
the compressor to trigger when there is something on the sidechain
input.

So, when I send CW, the compressor hears the Heathkit oscillator and
compresses (attenuates) the audio output from the K3.

Using an external mixer, I can mix the compressed audio from the K3 with
the audio from the code oscillator. The code oscillator will be
constant level while the K3 audio will duck under it.

Thanks for being an enabler :-)

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -
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gdaught6

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

> Yes - and it is an output because it is the K3 that making a condition
> available (switch closure) to the outside world. An input is something
> coming from the outside world that would control the K3. The K3 'sends'
> either an open circuit or a conducting condition - it is a HEXFET
> driving this output - no relays are used in the K3 T/R switching or keying.
>
> I am puzzled about why you would want to connect your code practice
> oscillator to this output. If you want code practice, just put the K3
> into TX TEST and you will hear sidetone from the K3 as you key it - no
> need for the external oscillator - but of course, if you 'just want to
> do it', then by all means go ahead with it.

Or, one could hook the key up to the code practice oscillator, and not involve the K3
at all! 8-)

73,

George T Daughters, K6GT
CU in the California QSO Party (CQP)
October 3-4, 2009

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Darwin, Keith

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

OK, so how closely will it follow the keying if I'm in QSK mode? Pretty close, I assume.

OR here's another question.

Can I hook my Heath oscillator to the same key that is hooked to the K3? Will the keying voltage from one be an issue for the other?

- Keith N1AS -

- K3 711 -

From: Tom Hammond [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:55 PM
To: Darwin, Keith
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

So I could use it to drive my practice oscillator, ea ? Is it active when the rig is in TX Test mode?

NO! It follows the K3's T/R line (including programmed-in delays) , not keying!

Tom

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Hank Garretson

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

At 10:28 AM 22 01 2009, Darwin, Keith, NA1S wrote:

OK, so how closely will it follow the keying if I'm in QSK mode? Pretty close, I assume.

I think you and the other responders are missing a key point. As I understand it, in QSK mode, when you close the K3 Key In, the Key Out closes and then something like 8 milliseconds later the K3 starts transmitting. When you open K3 Key In, the K3 keeps transmitting for 8 milliseconds to make up for the 8 milliseconds lost at key closure, and then Key Out stays closed for another 8 milliseconds before opening. The 8 millisecond pad on each end is to make sure that your amplifier switches both on and off without RF present.

So to answer your code practice oscillator question. No. The code practice oscillator will be on something like 16 milliseconds longer than your key closure. You might or might not hear the extra 16 milliseconds.

I think that the 8 milliseconds, or whatever it is, is menu adjustable, but I have just accepted the default. It keys my AL-1200 bias and an external vacuum-relay TR switch perfectly for full QSK at 40 WPM which is as fast as I ever go.

73,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
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Mike K2MK

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Hi Keith:

The Key Out relay is only energized during transmission. This is what you
would want for an amplifier. So for example if you turn your VOX off and
press your key or paddle, the Key Out relay will not energize. If you turn
your VOX on it will energize but you will also be transmitting. If you are
in normal VOX control, the Key Out relay will stay energized longer than
your key press based on your VOX delay setting. So it won't follow your dits
and dahs. I suppose if you turn QSK on, the Key Out will follow the dits and
dahs of your key presses or the internal keyer.

It was mentioned that Key Out is available on the accessory connector. I use
this output for an antenna relay and it is NOT identical to the Key Out jack
we have been discussing. First it is a transistor output with limited
current handling capability. You would need to construct a driver circuit to
interface to it. Second, it IS present when you are not transmitting. It
precisely follows the dits and dahs when VOX is turned off. When VOX is
turned on it has the normal VOX delay applied. I pointed this out to the
factory and Wayne wrote the following:
"This is how it works at present, but based on customer feedback, I may
change it".

73,
Mike K2MK

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Darwin, Keith

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

OK, so for my needs (driving a code practice oscillator), I'd do better
to take the key output that is available in the accessory connector
PROVIDED my oscillator doesn't generate too much voltage at its inputs
and doesn't source too much current when the inputs are shorted. Both
of those are easy enough to measure with my DVM

Looks like 10 ma max current, but what is the max voltage?

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -

-----Original Message-----
From: K2MK [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 2:51 PM
To: Darwin, Keith; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

Hi Keith:

The Key Out relay is only energized during transmission. This is what
you would want for an amplifier. So for example if you turn your VOX off
and press your key or paddle, the Key Out relay will not energize. If
you turn your VOX on it will energize but you will also be transmitting.
If you are in normal VOX control, the Key Out relay will stay energized
longer than your key press based on your VOX delay setting. So it won't
follow your dits and dahs. I suppose if you turn QSK on, the Key Out
will follow the dits and dahs of your key presses or the internal keyer.

It was mentioned that Key Out is available on the accessory connector. I
use this output for an antenna relay and it is NOT identical to the Key
Out jack we have been discussing. First it is a transistor output with
limited current handling capability. You would need to construct a
driver circuit to interface to it. Second, it IS present when you are
not transmitting. It precisely follows the dits and dahs when VOX is
turned off. When VOX is turned on it has the normal VOX delay applied. I
pointed this out to the factory and Wayne wrote the following:
"This is how it works at present, but based on customer feedback, I may
change it".

73,
Mike K2MK

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Merv Schweigert

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Mike K2MK

>
> The Key Out relay is only energized during transmission. This is what you
> would want for an amplifier. So for example if you turn your VOX off and
> press your key or paddle, the Key Out relay will not energize. If you turn
> your VOX on it will energize but you will also be transmitting. If you are
> in normal VOX control, the Key Out relay will stay energized longer than
> your key press based on your VOX delay setting. So it won't follow your dits
> and dahs. I suppose if you turn QSK on, the Key Out will follow the dits and
> dahs of your key presses or the internal keyer.
>
>

May be a bug in my K3 2306, but if you hit the paddle the
key out does key the amp with the VOX turned off.
Merv KH7C
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Mike K2MK

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

Thanks Merv:

I stand corrected. I just verified that the Key Out relay is energized when
not transmitting. And therefore it is the same as the Key Out on the
accessory connector. And when the VOX is off the Key Out will follow the
dits and dahs. Learn something new every day.

73,
Mike K2MK

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:30 PM
To: "K2MK" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Reflector"
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

W8ZN

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

This isn't a bug, it's the way it was implemented. Originally, whenever in cw, hitting the key would cause the rig to transmit, either in VOX or PTT mode. A change was made so that the rig would not transmit unless it was in VOX or the PTT was engaged. In PTT mode, the rig still keys but doesn't output any RF; different from the way most all other rigs behave but it works. Hopefully, once Wayne gets peoples' Duckies included, they go back and set it so unless in VOX mode the rig doesn't even key when the paddles are closed.

Terry

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Merv Schweigert <[hidden email]>

>
> >
> > The Key Out relay is only energized during transmission. This is what you
> > would want for an amplifier. So for example if you turn your VOX off and
> > press your key or paddle, the Key Out relay will not energize. If you turn
> > your VOX on it will energize but you will also be transmitting. If you are
> > in normal VOX control, the Key Out relay will stay energized longer than
> > your key press based on your VOX delay setting. So it won't follow your dits
> > and dahs. I suppose if you turn QSK on, the Key Out will follow the dits and
> > dahs of your key presses or the internal keyer.
> >
> >
> May be a bug in my K3 2306, but if you hit the paddle the
> key out does key the amp with the VOX turned off.
> Merv KH7C
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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ww2r2

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Do not be mislead by the manual as I was last weekend during the VHF
contest.

The "LP" has nothing to do with low ***RF*** power. It is active when
producing 100W or 0dBm in transverter mode. Currently there is no K3 keying
output that is ONLY active when transverting. To achieve this I had to gate
the KEYOUT-LP on pin 10 and the DIGOUT0 signal on pin 6

Perhaps it should have been labelled "LC" (low current)?

Dave

WW2R

)>

> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:15:33 -0500
> From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?
> To: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Kieth,
>
> From page 17 of the manual
>
> KEYOUT-LP at pin 10 of the ACC connector is similar, but the max voltage
> is lower and it is limited to 10 ma.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

Guy, K2AV

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

In reply to this post by Merv Schweigert

K3 #1239 with FW 2.78 also keys the amp with VOX off. That is not a bad
thing for me. Being able to key that line without putting RF on the coax is
useful.

73, Guy.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>
To: "K2MK" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Reflector"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

>
>>
>> The Key Out relay is only energized during transmission. This is what you
>> would want for an amplifier. So for example if you turn your VOX off and
>> press your key or paddle, the Key Out relay will not energize. If you
>> turn
>> your VOX on it will energize but you will also be transmitting. If you
>> are
>> in normal VOX control, the Key Out relay will stay energized longer than
>> your key press based on your VOX delay setting. So it won't follow your
>> dits
>> and dahs. I suppose if you turn QSK on, the Key Out will follow the dits
>> and
>> dahs of your key presses or the internal keyer.
>>
>>
> May be a bug in my K3 2306, but if you hit the paddle the
> key out does key the amp with the VOX turned off.
> Merv KH7C
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>

Merv Schweigert

Re: Silly question - what is KEY OUT?

Guy, thanks for the confirmation on that operation, wonder what you or
others use the key line for with no RF?
Its a pain for me as if I hit the paddle to hear speed or play cw, the relay
in the amp clicks away, dont need it keying that more than needed to
wear it out. Its a vacuum relay.
Guess I just have no need to key the amp with no RF. How about a
menu function to turn it on and off if some folks need it.
Merv KH7C

> K3 #1239 with FW 2.78 also keys the amp with VOX off. That is not a
> bad thing for me. Being able to key that line without putting RF on
> the coax is useful.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merv Schweigert" <[hidden email]>
> To: "K2MK" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Reflector"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 3:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Silly question - what is KEY OUT?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> The Key Out relay is only energized during transmission. This is
>>> what you
>>> would want for an amplifier. So for example if you turn your VOX off
>>> and
>>> press your key or paddle, the Key Out relay will not energize. If
>>> you turn
>>> your VOX on it will energize but you will also be transmitting. If
>>> you are
>>> in normal VOX control, the Key Out relay will stay energized longer
>>> than
>>> your key press based on your VOX delay setting. So it won't follow
>>> your dits
>>> and dahs. I suppose if you turn QSK on, the Key Out will follow the
>>> dits and
>>> dahs of your key presses or the internal keyer.
>>>
>>>
>> May be a bug in my K3 2306, but if you hit the paddle the
>> key out does key the amp with the VOX turned off.
>> Merv KH7C
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>
>
>