Solder requests - STOP

[Don Wilhelm-3]

Sorry folks, but within less than an hour, I have received 14 requests, and
several are for multiple rolls - so they are all spoken for.

If I have any more requests, they will have to go on a wait list in case one
or more folks who said they wanted a roll back out later.

73,
Don W3FPR
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[Nick Waterman]

W3FPR - Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Sorry folks, but within less than an hour, I have received 14 requests, and
> several are for multiple rolls - so they are all spoken for.

I thought it was just an EU thing, didn't realise lead was going out of
fashion your side of the pond too.

I was going to ask, even before this thread... What do Elecraft and
"Doctor Solder" recommend now that 60/40 doesn't officially exist?

... and what about temperature? Most of the lead-free solders have a
much lower melting-point, which has pros and cons: probably means less
thermal damage to components from your iron, but might also mean hot
components like your PA desolder themselves earlier   ;-)

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[Stuart Rohre]

Some of us in US are getting any remaining stocks of genuine lead solders
from "Multicore" (former Ersin).

They have been bought by another us co. but a google search of "Multicore
Solders" should give you their web site, and their dealers.   Some dealers
will have NOS for awhile.  I have a couple of three pounds I hope will do my
kits to build and scratch built needs.  Since my first roll of Ersin
Multicore solder lasted 40 years and several projects, I think 3 pounds
might do the trick.

Stuart
K5KVH



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[Nick Waterman]

Nick Waterman wrote:
> I was going to ask, even before this thread... What do Elecraft and
> "Doctor Solder" recommend now that 60/40 doesn't officially exist?

Anyone?

Apart from being told "loads of us are stockpiling lead-based stuff
while we still can", I've not really had any useful advice on what to do
if you want to embrace the future and go lead-free   :-)

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[Matt and Kelly]

Until today, I've been using an Icom AT-180 antenna tuner with my
IC-706MKIIG.  Well, today, it gave up the ghost.  Looking back, it never
really did work right.

I want to replace it with another auto antenna tuner (in the shack). Any
suggestions?  Any that will interface with the 706?

Thanks

Matt - K7OE

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Nick Waterman wrote:
> I was going to ask, even before this thread... What do Elecraft and
> "Doctor Solder" recommend now that 60/40 doesn't officially exist?

----------------------------------------

I don't know what you mean by "60/40 doesn't officially exist". It's still
being manufactured and readily-available everywhere I've looked.

The Kester 44 that Elecraft recommends is, in particular, still in
production. See http://tinyurl.com/b44v4 at the Kester web site.

Plug "Kester 44 Solder" into your favorite search engine and you'll get
pages of hits of places to buy all you want.

It is true that non-lead solder is in use and being developed over time.
>From what I've seen and read, current formulations have three problems.

One is that it doesn't "wet" surfaces as easily as lead solder. That's a
minor issue for us Hams, but a MAJOR issue for companies using
wave-soldering and other automated techniques that must be absolutely
reliable every time. Still, it means taking more care at all times to ensure
a good joint.

Another issue is that lead-free solder isn't as shiny as leaded solder when
it cools. In fact, it can look exactly like what we've come to know as a
"cold solder" joint! That means extra care is needed to produce good joints.
We lose some of the visual clues.

Finally, all the lead-free solders I know of require somewhat higher iron
temperatures than leaded solder. Modern components can handle the heat just
fine in normal use, but removing components can be a bit more difficult
without damaging pc board traces. Commercial manufacturers seldom face the
task of removing parts, but us Hams seem to need to do that all too often,
Hi!

The industry press seems to think the rush to lead-free solder will occur
when a major consumer electronics manufacturer can offer "lead free" devices
at the same price as others. It's expected that the consumer will see it as
a chance to be "green" at no cost, to the detriment of any manufacturer who
is still using lead-based solders. But there's a reason why most
manufacturers are using lead solder today.

By the time all the bugs are out of the process for high-speed, reliable
mass production with lead-free solder, you can bet there'll be excellent
replacements for us Hams to use instead of the old standbys we've had for
years.

In the meantime, wash your hands after handling solder and don't put solder
in your mouth. Seriously! I've seen guys stick the end of a length of wire
solder in their mouth while using both hands during a repair. Not a good
idea!

But, short of that, there's no real reason not to use the "tried and true".

Ron AC7AC

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[Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/KC8NHF]

You go buy lead free solder, preferably silver loaded, and start using it.
No changes needed to your normal soldering methods.

On Saturday 17 Sep 2005 19:04, Nick Waterman wrote:

> Nick Waterman wrote:
> > I was going to ask, even before this thread... What do Elecraft and
> > "Doctor Solder" recommend now that 60/40 doesn't officially exist?
>
> Anyone?
>
> Apart from being told "loads of us are stockpiling lead-based stuff
> while we still can", I've not really had any useful advice on what to do
> if you want to embrace the future and go lead-free   :-)
>

--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Nigel A. Gunn. 59 Beadlemead, Milton Keynes, MK6 4HF, England.
Tel [phone]
e-mail [hidden email] or  [hidden email]
www    http://www.ngunn.net  or  http://www.ngunn.demon.co.uk
Amateur radio stations  G8IFF, KC8NHF
Member of  AMSAT-UK #182, ARRL, GQRP Club, QRPARCI, SOC #548  RAYNET
           Flying Pig #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA  LM-1691,
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Ron made several good points, but I want to add another - I have done repair
work on 2 K2s to date that used lead-free solder, and I can tell you that
de-soldering that stuff is no fun - even with my Hakko 808.  Sure the solder
sucks off the side the Hakko is on, but the solder itself apparently does
not conduct heat very well, so after every de-soldering attempt, I had to
reheat the lead from the component side and remove the component (being
careful not to injure the plated thru hole), and then use a stainless steel
needle to open the hole for replacement component.

Perhaps as Ron has pointed out, the lead-free solder technology will improve
with time, but in the meantime, any re-work will be a more difficult chore.
The electronics industry is nearly at a level where they no longer do
re-work at the end of the assembly line - if it doesn't work, it is cheaper
to throw it away, so from an industrial standpoint, they will not have much
incentive to make de-soldering easier.

PS - I truly believe the original statement that "60/40 doesn't exist" was a
tongue-in-cheek remark.  Jack has that 'funny' way with words sometimes, and
I for one appreciate the humor.  I certainly hope it didn't cause any undue
concerns.

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Nick Waterman wrote:
> > I was going to ask, even before this thread... What do Elecraft and
> > "Doctor Solder" recommend now that 60/40 doesn't officially exist?
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> I don't know what you mean by "60/40 doesn't officially exist". It's still
> being manufactured and readily-available everywhere I've looked.
>
> The Kester 44 that Elecraft recommends is, in particular, still in
> production. See http://tinyurl.com/b44v4 at the Kester web site.
>
> Plug "Kester 44 Solder" into your favorite search engine and you'll get
> pages of hits of places to buy all you want.
>
> It is true that non-lead solder is in use and being developed over time.
> >From what I've seen and read, current formulations have three problems.
>
> One is that it doesn't "wet" surfaces as easily as lead solder. That's a
> minor issue for us Hams, but a MAJOR issue for companies using
> wave-soldering and other automated techniques that must be absolutely
> reliable every time. Still, it means taking more care at all
> times to ensure
> a good joint.
>
> Another issue is that lead-free solder isn't as shiny as leaded
> solder when
> it cools. In fact, it can look exactly like what we've come to know as a
> "cold solder" joint! That means extra care is needed to produce
> good joints.
> We lose some of the visual clues.
>
> Finally, all the lead-free solders I know of require somewhat higher iron
> temperatures than leaded solder. Modern components can handle the
> heat just
> fine in normal use, but removing components can be a bit more difficult
> without damaging pc board traces. Commercial manufacturers seldom face the
> task of removing parts, but us Hams seem to need to do that all too often,
> Hi!
>
> The industry press seems to think the rush to lead-free solder will occur
> when a major consumer electronics manufacturer can offer "lead
> free" devices
> at the same price as others. It's expected that the consumer will
> see it as
> a chance to be "green" at no cost, to the detriment of any
> manufacturer who
> is still using lead-based solders. But there's a reason why most
> manufacturers are using lead solder today.
>
> By the time all the bugs are out of the process for high-speed, reliable
> mass production with lead-free solder, you can bet there'll be excellent
> replacements for us Hams to use instead of the old standbys we've had for
> years.
>
> In the meantime, wash your hands after handling solder and don't
> put solder
> in your mouth. Seriously! I've seen guys stick the end of a length of wire
> solder in their mouth while using both hands during a repair. Not a good
> idea!
>
> But, short of that, there's no real reason not to use the "tried
> and true".
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>

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[David Honey]

ISTR someone also had previously posted a link to some pictures on the NASA
web site showing the problem with crystalline whiskers with tin. I think
the issue here was that such whisker growth is significant less with
traditional leaded solders than the lead-free ones. If this is true, and as
we moved towards closer pin placement and higher densities, this could make
long term reliability an issue.

Anyone have any more info that aspect?

73, David, M0DHO K2#4030

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[Nick Waterman]

W3FPR - Don Wilhelm wrote:
> de-soldering that stuff is no fun - even with my Hakko 808.  Sure the solder

Eeek.

> PS - I truly believe the original statement that "60/40 doesn't exist" was a
> tongue-in-cheek remark.  Jack has that 'funny' way with words sometimes, and
> I for one appreciate the humor.  I certainly hope it didn't cause any undue
> concerns.

It was me who said "doesn't officially exist". I'll admit I was looking
at one (very well known) UK hobby electronics supplier, and they have no
leaded solder any more. Looking at the other main UK supplier, they DO
still sell leaded Multicore and Alpha Fry, alongside lead-free from the
same manufacturers, but they make it quite clear that the leaded solder
is "Not RoHS compliant!" and is being phased out.

   http://www.rohsdirective.com/

In my original solder email, I said something like "I thought it was
just an EU thing, didn't realise it was going out of fashion your side
of the pond too". RoHS is an EU thing, and it looks like "products using
non-compliant components onto the EU market after 1st July 2006 will be
in breach of both UK and European law" so most people seem to HAVE
already, or BE already phasing it out. I still don't know if there's YET
a similar thing in the US or not.

"Anybody producing products that are not compliant with ROHS and who
then attempts to sell then on the EU market after the compliance
deadline, will be in breach of the EU ROHS Directive", so selling kits
without solder is PROBABLY fine as long as there's no lead/cadmium/etc
in any of the other components (maybe that's a foolish assumption?)

Ron said:
> Finally, all the lead-free solders I know of require somewhat higher iron
> temperatures than leaded solder.

 From what I've read, they vary. Some of the more expensive alloys have
far LOWER melting point, but tend to cost more, apparently wet badly,
and traditional fluxes don't activate at those temperatures, so they
need special fluxes too. If you're not careful, your hotter components
can also desolder themselves   :-)

There's quite a wide choice of lead-free alternatives, presumably each
with their pros and cons, which is why I was seeking advice.  :-/

I guess what worries me... sooner or later, all of us Elecrafters in EU
and possibly the rest of the world are going to need something that's:

1) Lead-free (well, yeah, and mercury, cadmium, and the rest of RoHS)
2) Easy enough to work with, and indeed desolder, and rework with
3) Doesn't fry components with too high a heat
4) Lasts... and perhaps most importantly
5) Is covered by Elecraft's limited warranty (fluxes, solvents, blah)

Advice from on point 5 particularly appreciated, most of the rest we've
covered. What do Elecraft themselves (and "Dr Solder") recommend if (and
when) lead isn't an option?

Nigel G8IFF said:
> You go buy lead free solder, preferably silver loaded, and start using it.
> No changes needed to your normal soldering methods.

... and being a G, I'm going to hope he knows what he's talking about   :-)

Cheers all!

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

I didn't realize you were on the east side of the Atlantic, Nick.

Given the issues with lead-free solder, it has been around a LONG time!
Lead-free "silver solder" is required by the manufacturers of many RF
systems for use where very high frequency (appx. 1 GHZ), high current RF
flows. E.F. Johnson (of Ham fame and now a major manufacturer of Land Mobile
radios and repeaters) is one whose equipment I have serviced that requires
silver solder in their RF power amplifiers. In that case the justification
is that silver solder is more conductive, especially to RF which flows only
through the few surface atoms of the conductor.

It's not as easy to work with, as I mentioned before, but it has a long
history of radio use. Don's comments echo my experience with "silver
solder". I haven't personally used much of the newer stuff, but from what he
says it hasn't changed much, Hi!

I'm as "green" as then next guy, being a proud resident of the American
northwest were we take ecological and pollution issues very seriously and
being one of the few places where residents have consistently approved
higher taxes to do things in ways that pollute less, but I also avoid
stampedes to do "what everyone knows". As I'm fond of saying in various
local meetings, if the fact that something can be toxic is justification for
banning it, then we must ban coffee, sugar, all grains, most dairy products,
etc., because any laboratory will confirm that if you shove a pound of it
down the throat of a rat in one meal, the rat will die every time. It's not
just whether it's toxic, it's toxic in what quantities that counts.

I traded off-line messages with another British Ham yesterday in which we
talked about the recycling efforts going on there and here in which we do
not even put electronics scrap in the 'trash' any longer. It is recycled to
recover the metals and other recyclable materials from it instead. Only the
bare minimum of residue, and non-toxic, lead-free residue, finds its way
into landfills. Now it might make sense to remove lead entirely if it's
possible, but to me using it and recycling it is preferable if lead provides
a superior product.

But then that's just my opinion. I wrote my original reply on the assumption
you were an American Ham, not seeing a call sign attached to your name.
Sorry about that!

73,

Ron AC7AC

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