Speaking of off-shore manufacture...

[Vic K2VCO]

I just bought a transformer, primary and secondary both spec'd at 120v. My line voltage is
119.5 -- the secondary voltage is -- get ready -- 148v! The only thing I can think of is
that this is supposed to be the voltage under load. But I didn't think that transformers
were spec'd that way, normally.

It's a good thing I'm not building a helicopter or something.
--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Guy, K2AV]

Don't forget the Mars Surveyor, that crashed because they got the
units of distance mixed up in the programming....   Stuff like that
happens.

73, Guy.

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just bought a transformer, primary and secondary both spec'd at 120v. My line voltage is
> 119.5 -- the secondary voltage is -- get ready -- 148v! The only thing I can think of is
> that this is supposed to be the voltage under load. But I didn't think that transformers
> were spec'd that way, normally.
>
> It's a good thing I'm not building a helicopter or something.
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
> ______________________________________________________________
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[k6dgw]

Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> Don't forget the Mars Surveyor, that crashed because they got the
> units of distance mixed up in the programming....   Stuff like that
> happens.

Transformers [the electrical kind, not the toy kind] have software?

I got about 2 1/2 years at NASA Houston working on Apollo while in the
USAF.  Much later, when Surveyor had disappeared behind Mars, one of the
admin people at work stopped me in the hall and said, "You must know,
what happened?"  I told her, "They shot it down, just like we would
have."  She kept some distance from me after that.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2010 Cal QSO Party 2-3 Oct 2010
- www.cqp.org
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[Cookie]

You did not have a rectifier and filter on the secondary did you?  The windings
are specified in AC-RMS and if you measure DC on the secondary or peak AC you
will get a higher reading.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 5:24:04 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Speaking of off-shore manufacture...

I just bought a transformer, primary and secondary both spec'd at 120v. My line
voltage is

119.5 -- the secondary voltage is -- get ready -- 148v! The only thing I can
think of is

that this is supposed to be the voltage under load. But I didn't think that
transformers

were spec'd that way, normally.

It's a good thing I'm not building a helicopter or something.
--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Vic K2VCO]

On 8/1/2010 5:36 PM, WILLIS COOKE wrote:
> You did not have a rectifier and filter on the secondary did you?  The
> windings are specified in AC-RMS and if you measure DC on the secondary
> or peak AC you will get a higher reading.

No, I just measured the AC voltage from the transformer. Actually, why I noticed was that
when I DID have it hooked up with a rectifier/filter, the DC output was close to 200V!
--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[ussv dharma]

Ok gentlemen, here is your chance to be of service to God, Country, and mainly me.

It looks like I will finally get out of KH6 and head for KH3, V7, V73, T32, 5w, ETC  come November.

QUESTION:
  this is a solo dxpedition, I am 75 years old.  the antenna farm will most likely be vertical and located right at the shore line.

What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?

Susan

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm  AFA9SM                         USSV DHARMA 


--- On Sun, 8/1/10, Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Speaking of off-shore manufacture...
> To: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sunday, August 1, 2010, 3:47 PM
> On 8/1/2010 5:36 PM, WILLIS COOKE
> wrote:
> > You did not have a rectifier and filter on the
> secondary did you?  The
> > windings are specified in AC-RMS and if you measure DC
> on the secondary
> > or peak AC you will get a higher reading.
>
> No, I just measured the AC voltage from the transformer.
> Actually, why I noticed was that
> when I DID have it hooked up with a rectifier/filter, the
> DC output was close to 200V!
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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[Mike WA8BXN]

I've not been on the radio at an ocean beach (but have been to such beaches,
should take a radio next time). Others with experience doing it may have
better answers. I would use a quarter wave vertical suspended from a
fiberglass mast (fishing rod would work depending on the band) with a bit of
wire in the water as radials. From what I have read it works quite well.
When I have been to the coastal ocean I was looking more to do swimming.
 
If I wanted to play radio I would probably go with 20 M. 16 feet doesn't
take that much of a pole for the vertical. Its not my favorite band because
most of the time I am greatly inland and have the room for lower band
dipoles. DX has never been a special interest for me but on a costal
location could be interesting.
 
Enjoy what ever you decide to to my friend!
 
73/72 - Mike WA8BXN
 
 
 
 
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:55:03 -0700 (PDT), ussv dharma wrote:

>What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?

Hi Susan,

The first, second, and third things you should do is study what George,
AA7JV, and Tomi (HA7RY) have done on their 2-person DXpeditions to small,
rare islands. George are extremely resourceful, excellent engineers, and
great operators. The put out very good signals with minimal equipment, do
EVERYTHING themselves, and put the 25-person DXpeditions with 6 figure
budgets to shame. Their logs were in LOTW before they left islands!

http://www.tx3a.com/

http://vk9gmw.com/gallery.html

There's a lot of detail on these websites. I heard George speak a couple
of times in Dayton, and had some great conversations with him. He's
become one of my heroes.

73, Jim K9YC




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[Guy, K2AV]

They get wound with software.  Human beings are in charge of how many
turns on primary and secondary.  1:1 transformers do not occur
naturally in nature.   : >)   Guy.

On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> Don't forget the Mars Surveyor, that crashed because they got the
>> units of distance mixed up in the programming....   Stuff like that
>> happens.
>
> Transformers [the electrical kind, not the toy kind] have software?
>
> I got about 2 1/2 years at NASA Houston working on Apollo while in the
> USAF.  Much later, when Surveyor had disappeared behind Mars, one of the
> admin people at work stopped me in the hall and said, "You must know,
> what happened?"  I told her, "They shot it down, just like we would
> have."  She kept some distance from me after that.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2010 Cal QSO Party 2-3 Oct 2010
> - www.cqp.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Cookie]

Susan, one of the commercial verticals such as an AV-14AVQ or AV-12AVQ mounted
on a pipe pounded in the sand with a few wire radials will work very well on the
beach.  The take-off over a long expanse of salt water will be great.  Twenty in
the day time will be the best band and forty at night if you want to battle the
critters.  A 43 ft. vertical would be a little better, but also might be a
handfull to erect for you without help.  The KAT-3 will tune almost anything.
Good Luck!
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ




________________________________
From: ussv dharma <[hidden email]>
To: WILLIS COOKE <[hidden email]>; Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sun, August 1, 2010 8:55:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Speaking of off-shore manufacture...

Ok gentlemen, here is your chance to be of service to God, Country, and mainly
me.

It looks like I will finally get out of KH6 and head for KH3, V7, V73, T32, 5w,
ETC  come November.

QUESTION:
  this is a solo dxpedition, I am 75 years old.  the antenna farm will most
likely be vertical and located right at the shore line.

What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?

Susan

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're
headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm  AFA9SM                         USSV
DHARMA 


     
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[W8JI]

<<<<QUESTION:
  this is a solo dxpedition, I am 75 years old.  the antenna farm will most
likely be vertical and located right at the shore line.

What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?

Susan>>>

Susan,

Without details like the bands you want to use and which bands are most
important, it is difficult to answer.

Most answers you will get will probably be based on manufacturing
advertisements and feelings rather than how things really work.
Manufacturers through their advertisements have largely brainwashed us as a
group on antennas.  :-)

The Butternut HF6V and Hustler 6BTV are about at the top of the all-band
gain (80-10 meters) and have nearly identical performance. They both are
trap verticals, although one of them pretends it does not have traps.

73 Tom

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[W8JI]

>I just bought a transformer, primary and secondary both spec'd at 120v. My
>line voltage is
> 119.5 -- the secondary voltage is -- get ready -- 148v! The only thing I
> can think of is
> that this is supposed to be the voltage under load. But I didn't think
> that transformers
> were spec'd that way, normally.

Transformers are commonly spec'ed under full rated load current, much less
often under no load conditions. After all, people generally want to know the
voltage under operating load.

Because of ESR losses in small cheap transformers, it would not be unusual
to find a noticeable step-up ratio to the secondary. To confirm that, turn
it around and excite the secondary and measure the primary.

73 Tom


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[Bill N3KKM]

For the past year I have used a Tarheel model 100 screwdriver antenna mounted at ground level with their radial kit and capacitance hat and a little push from an Ameritron AL-811.  With the recent addition of the K3 to my shack I have upgraded to a Tarheel model 200 and an AL-811H.  I have to set the antenna up in a portable configuration due to where I live.  It is not a beam, but it performs better than anything I've used in the past.

Bill-N3KKM



----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
To: "ussv dharma" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, August 2, 2010 6:46:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [Elecraft] Re Vertical for portable use

<<<<QUESTION:
  this is a solo dxpedition, I am 75 years old.  the antenna farm will most
likely be vertical and located right at the shore line.

What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?

Susan>>>

Susan,

Without details like the bands you want to use and which bands are most
important, it is difficult to answer.

Most answers you will get will probably be based on manufacturing
advertisements and feelings rather than how things really work.
Manufacturers through their advertisements have largely brainwashed us as a
group on antennas.  :-)

The Butternut HF6V and Hustler 6BTV are about at the top of the all-band
gain (80-10 meters) and have nearly identical performance. They both are
trap verticals, although one of them pretends it does not have traps.

73 Tom

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[Vic K2VCO]

Well, this is the first time I've had this kind of experience. I'd prefer to know the ac
voltage of the secondary and make my own calculations, at least with transformers intended
for DC supplies.

On 8/2/2010 4:06 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

> Transformers are commonly spec'ed under full rated load current, much
> less often under no load conditions. After all, people generally want to
> know the voltage under operating load.
>
> Because of ESR losses in small cheap transformers, it would not be
> unusual to find a noticeable step-up ratio to the secondary. To confirm
> that, turn it around and excite the secondary and measure the primary.
>
> 73 Tom

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[W8JI]

> Well, this is the first time I've had this kind of experience. I'd prefer
> to know the ac
> voltage of the secondary and make my own calculations, at least with
> transformers intended
> for DC supplies.

Hi Vic,

The standard practice is to give secondary voltage with a resistive load of
full rated current.

Sometimes in special applications the dc voltage output with a specific
rectifier and filter system is given.

The secondary voltage is dependent on turns ratio, load current, and ESR of
the transformer.  We could calculate the secondary voltage if the
manufacturer gave ESR, turns ratio, and if we knew load current.

If they gave you open circuit voltage, it still would not tell you dc
voltage under load or even peak voltage on the secondary under load. All it
would tell you is zero load current voltage.

Normal industry standard is to give secondary voltage under full rated
current with a resistive load. This means a 120 volt secondary transformer
is always more than 120 volts RMS without a load or with a light load. With
a capacitor input bridge rectifier would provide noticeably less than 1.414
times 120 volts at rated current because of power factor.

73 Tom

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[Vic K2VCO]

This makes sense, but for my application it's more important to know the ac voltage with a
very light load. The transformer is intended to power a vacuum-relay QSK circuit for an
amplifier. It charges a capacitor to the peak voltage, which is applied through a resistor
to limit the current through the relays. This reduces the pull-in time of the relays. So
what's important to me is the voltage that the capacitor charges to, not the steady state
voltage under load!

In this case I just changed the circuit from a bridge to a full-wave ct, bringing the DC
voltage down from 200v to 100v, and reduced the value of the series resistor to maintain
the proper current through the relays. This should still provide enough 'kick'. I probably
could have reversed the transformer and that would have worked as well.

On 8/2/2010 9:14 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

> Hi Vic,
>
> The standard practice is to give secondary voltage with a resistive load
> of full rated current.
>
> Sometimes in special applications the dc voltage output with a specific
> rectifier and filter system is given.
>
> The secondary voltage is dependent on turns ratio, load current, and ESR
> of the transformer. We could calculate the secondary voltage if the
> manufacturer gave ESR, turns ratio, and if we knew load current.
>
> If they gave you open circuit voltage, it still would not tell you dc
> voltage under load or even peak voltage on the secondary under load. All
> it would tell you is zero load current voltage.
>
> Normal industry standard is to give secondary voltage under full rated
> current with a resistive load. This means a 120 volt secondary
> transformer is always more than 120 volts RMS without a load or with a
> light load. With a capacitor input bridge rectifier would provide
> noticeably less than 1.414 times 120 volts at rated current because of
> power factor.
>
> 73 Tom

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[W7GJ, Lance]

Hello Susan,

Will you have an amplifier that includes 6m?  If you have something that will put out
500w on 6m, you have an opportunity to do the first activation on 6m EME at just
about everyplace you are planning to go!  What you would need to make this a reality,
is a good yagi aimed at the horizon (ideally looking right out over the ocean for
maximum ground gain).  It does not have to be up too high - 20' is nice, but a 10'
mast will work.

M2 makes a 21' portable mast for DXpeditions that is quite sturdy but probably more
than you need for a little 6m beam. Something like the M2 6M7JHV yagi is very
lightweight and easily managed.  It breaks down into a small box, but in an ideal
case, you would be able to stowe it somewhere partially assembled to make it easiest
and fastest to set up and take down at each location.

http://www.m2inc.com/products/6m/6m7jhv.html

It doesn't weigh much more than my cat, Greyson, and I have worked many people on 6m
EME using this antenna when the moon was near their horizon.

If a 6M7JHV is up around 20' off the ground, it will product ground gain lobes around
7 and 15 degrees elevation; if it is looking out over the ocean, it will probably
also will enjoy  a ground gain lobe around zero degrees.  Success on 6m EME comes
through the use of these ground gain lobes as the moon rises up through them.  So, if
you could be QRV for about an hour a day on your moonrise from these rare places, you
could make contacts using JT65A mode.  I would be happy to help publicize your
activity and make sure people were lined up to call you ;-)

There is about a week each month that has ideal cndx for 6m EME, and this is easily
predictable.  I can provide you with a calendar of ideal days if you think you can
get on from some of these spots ;-)

GL on this very exciting adventure!!  VY 73, Lance





On 8/2/2010 1:55 AM, ussv dharma wrote:

> Ok gentlemen, here is your chance to be of service to God, Country, and mainly
> me.
>
> It looks like I will finally get out of KH6 and head for KH3, V7, V73, T32, 5w,
> ETC  come November.
>
> QUESTION: this is a solo dxpedition, I am 75 years old.  the antenna farm will
> most likely be vertical and located right at the shore line.
>
> What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?
>
> Susan
>
> If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan
> Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm  AFA9SM                         USSV DHARMA
>
>

--
Lance Collister, W7GJ (ex: WN3GPL, WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT  59834  USA
QTH: DN27UB
TEL: [phone]
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

Interested in 6m EME?  Ask me about subscribing to the MAGIC BAND EME email reflector!
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[Lu Romero - W4LT]

Susan:

I have had very good success with a very portable and easy
to manage vertical antenna.  I own two (for a planned
portable 40m phased array) but use them singly at the
moment.

Its the model S9v by S9 Antennas.  www.s9antennas.com

Just returned from a mini DXPedition to Singapore while on a
job assignment.  Mounted a S9v on the rail of the 300 ft
ship I was working on, fed it with a 4:1 balun, grounding
the balun to the ship's metal and with 100ft (two 50 foot
sections) of RG8X, I could "tune" it to low SWR and use it
on 40 though 10.  Descent performance, worked some 300 QSO's
in two weeks of casual operating every once in a while when
work permitted.  Both my Kenwood TS570 (the travel rig) and
my K3's internal tuners at home had no problems with this
setup.

The antenna collapses down to three and a half feet and
telescopes to 31 feet.  Its all fiberglass (a tube with a
wire inside) and has cleats to wrap the wire around when
telescoped.  John, the designer, also sells a ground plate
and a portable, stick-it-in-the-sand mount for this antenna.
 They are very reasonably priced.  Best of all, it weighs 4
pounds, you can raise it with one hand.  Think of it as a
long fishing pole with a wire inside, and you get the idea.

You will need the antenna, a mount (The one John sells or a
4 foot PVC Pipe would also work), A radial plate (or some
electrical tape to tape the radials to the PVC Pipe mount) a
4:1 low power balun (Balun Designs, DX Engineering or MFJ
make them, or make your own) and some radial wires to lay on
the beach.  Attach the coax and have at it (put the balun in
a Zip Lock Freezer bag and seal it from salt water spray
first).

For your sail boat, the antenna is easy to store, just place
it collapsed under a bunk or hang it from the ceiling like a
fishing pole until you need it.  The outer shell of the tube
turns itself into a carry case for the antenna and the
radiator wire when telescoped.

I have no commercial connection with S9 Antennas, I am just
a satisfied customer.  

Have fun on your trip!

Lu Romero - W4LT
(O'Day 222SE "White Knuckles")


Message: 2
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 22:11:00 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: "Mike WA8BXN" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Speaking of off-shore manufacture...
To: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>, "Vic K2VCO"
<[hidden email]>,
    "ussv dharma" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: Text/Plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

I've not been on the radio at an ocean beach (but have been
to such beaches,
should take a radio next time). Others with experience doing
it may have
better answers. I would use a quarter wave vertical
suspended from a
fiberglass mast (fishing rod would work depending on the
band) with a bit of
wire in the water as radials. From what I have read it works
quite well.
When I have been to the coastal ocean I was looking more to
do swimming.
 
If I wanted to play radio I would probably go with 20 M. 16
feet doesn't
take that much of a pole for the vertical. Its not my
favorite band because
most of the time I am greatly inland and have the room for
lower band
dipoles. DX has never been a special interest for me but on
a costal
location could be interesting.
 
Enjoy what ever you decide to to my friend!
 
73/72 - Mike WA8BXN

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[W4GRJ]

I have had excellent results using the Chameleon V1 antenna for portable use
http://www.chameleonantenna.com . We first used it in February when we
helped out in Haiti. It covered 3.5 to 500Mhz. Used it on HF MARS freqs,
2mtrs and even used it to extend the range of the GMRS radios we used around
the field hospital at the airport.  You can see the Haiti installation in
one of the pics at the bottom of this article
http://www.arrl.org/news/amateur-radio-operators-provide-communications-supp
ort-in-haiti

For portable/emergency use, I am now using two V1 antennas as a vertical
dipole. This avoids the need to use counterpoise wires. Makes for a very
easy, fast antenna to set up. Also, we have very successfully used a single
V1 on a 42' sailboat mounted on the cabin.

Jack
W4GRJ / AFA4DG


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom W8JI
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 6:46 AM
To: ussv dharma
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Re Vertical for portable use

<<<<QUESTION:
  this is a solo dxpedition, I am 75 years old.  the antenna farm will most
likely be vertical and located right at the shore line.

What suggestions do you have for me to construct for antennas?

Susan>>>

Susan,

Without details like the bands you want to use and which bands are most
important, it is difficult to answer.

Most answers you will get will probably be based on manufacturing
advertisements and feelings rather than how things really work.
Manufacturers through their advertisements have largely brainwashed us as a
group on antennas.  :-)

The Butternut HF6V and Hustler 6BTV are about at the top of the all-band
gain (80-10 meters) and have nearly identical performance. They both are
trap verticals, although one of them pretends it does not have traps.

73 Tom

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