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Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

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Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

Gentleman,

I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of the
KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
Anybody out there who's got detailed information?

I.e.:
Sample Rates
Frequency Response
Dynamic Range
THD+N
Noise EIN
THD+N Outputs

I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our 144/432
EME DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like to reduce
parts we have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3 with us, usually
connected to very high quality external sound devices (Focusrite
Scarlett, Delta 44). Since we are doing moonbounce (JT65b) and each and
every dB counts we are focussing on lowest noise possible in our sound
devices. If the internal sound card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we
could propably reduce weight and lower all the cable mess a lot.

73 Udo, on behalf of DX7EME team

P.S.: Anybody in the group using the internal sound device on EME?
P.P.S.: I'be ordered a KIO3B already and will upgrade one of the K3's at
the end of the week, delivery permitting.

--
******************************************
Webs by DK5YA: *
http://www.dx7eme.de/
http://www.mmmonvhf.de/ [editor]*
http://www.vhfdx.de/ [owner] *
http://www.solweb.de/ [owner] *
http://www.spessartwetter.de/ [owner] *
******************************************

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Christopher Hoover

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

The circuit is based on PCM2901 <<http://www.ti.com/product/PCM2901>>

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Gentleman,
>
> I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of the
> KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
> Anybody out there who's got detailed information?
>
> I.e.:
> Sample Rates
> Frequency Response
> Dynamic Range
> THD+N
> Noise EIN
> THD+N Outputs
>
> I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our 144/432 EME
> DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like to reduce parts we
> have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3 with us, usually connected
> to very high quality external sound devices (Focusrite Scarlett, Delta 44).
> Since we are doing moonbounce (JT65b) and each and every dB counts we are
> focussing on lowest noise possible in our sound devices. If the internal
> sound card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we could propably reduce weight
> and lower all the cable mess a lot.
>
> 73 Udo, on behalf of DX7EME team
>
> P.S.: Anybody in the group using the internal sound device on EME?
> P.P.S.: I'be ordered a KIO3B already and will upgrade one of the K3's at
> the end of the week, delivery permitting.
>
> --
> ******************************************
> Webs by DK5YA: *
> http://www.dx7eme.de/
> http://www.mmmonvhf.de/ [editor]*
> http://www.vhfdx.de/ [owner] *
> http://www.solweb.de/ [owner] *
> http://www.spessartwetter.de/ [owner] *
> ******************************************
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

Thanks Christopher,

compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather poor.
And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just 48KHz.
Rather disappointing, to be honest.

73 Udo, DK5YA

Am 20.09.2017 um 00:24 schrieb Christopher Hoover:

> The circuit is based on PCM2901 <<http://www.ti.com/product/PCM2901>>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Gentleman,
>
> I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of
> the KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
> Anybody out there who's got detailed information?
>
> I.e.:
> Sample Rates
> Frequency Response
> Dynamic Range
> THD+N
> Noise EIN
> THD+N Outputs
>
> I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our
> 144/432 EME DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like
> to reduce parts we have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3
> with us, usually connected to very high quality external sound
> devices (Focusrite Scarlett, Delta 44). Since we are doing
> moonbounce (JT65b) and each and every dB counts we are focussing on
> lowest noise possible in our sound devices. If the internal sound
> card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we could propably reduce
> weight and lower all the cable mess a lot.
>
> 73 Udo, on behalf of DX7EME team
>
> P.S.: Anybody in the group using the internal sound device on EME?
> P.P.S.: I'be ordered a KIO3B already and will upgrade one of the
> K3's at the end of the week, delivery permitting.
>
> --
> ******************************************
> Webs by DK5YA: *
> http://www.dx7eme.de/
> http://www.mmmonvhf.de/ [editor]*
> http://www.vhfdx.de/ [owner] *
> http://www.solweb.de/ [owner] *
> http://www.spessartwetter.de/ [owner] *
> ******************************************
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>

Ed Muns

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

I think the chip is the two-channel TI PCM2902.

73,
Ed W0YK
On Sep 19, 2017 3:55 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Thanks Christopher,
>
> compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather poor.
> And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just 48KHz.
> Rather disappointing, to be honest.
>
> 73 Udo, DK5YA
>
> Am 20.09.2017 um 00:24 schrieb Christopher Hoover:
> > The circuit is based on PCM2901 <<http://www.ti.com/product/PCM2901>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA <[hidden email]
> > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >
> >     Gentleman,
> >
> >     I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of
> >     the KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
> >     Anybody out there who's got detailed information?
> >
> >     I.e.:
> >     Sample Rates
> >     Frequency Response
> >     Dynamic Range
> >     THD+N
> >     Noise EIN
> >     THD+N Outputs
> >
> >     I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our
> >     144/432 EME DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like
> >     to reduce parts we have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3
> >     with us, usually connected to very high quality external sound
> >     devices (Focusrite Scarlett, Delta 44). Since we are doing
> >     moonbounce (JT65b) and each and every dB counts we are focussing on
> >     lowest noise possible in our sound devices. If the internal sound
> >     card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we could propably reduce
> >     weight and lower all the cable mess a lot.
> >
> >     73 Udo, on behalf of DX7EME team
> >
> >     P.S.: Anybody in the group using the internal sound device on EME?
> >     P.P.S.: I'be ordered a KIO3B already and will upgrade one of the
> >     K3's at the end of the week, delivery permitting.
> >
> >     --
> >     ******************************************
> >     Webs by DK5YA: *
> >     http://www.dx7eme.de/
> >     http://www.mmmonvhf.de/ [editor]*
> >     http://www.vhfdx.de/ [owner] *
> >     http://www.solweb.de/ [owner] *
> >     http://www.spessartwetter.de/ [owner] *
> >     ******************************************
> >
> >     ______________________________________________________________
> >     Elecraft mailing list
> >     Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >     <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> >     Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >     <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> >     Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >
> >     This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >     Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >     Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Clay Autery-2

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

Don't you think being "rather disappoint[ed]" in the internal sound card
is a bit demanding? Do you really expect a 192 kHz, studio grade DAC
internal to the radio?

I understand the desire for low noise and wide bandwidth... I do. But
to put a Focusrite Scarlett grade sound interface internal to the radio
is simply over the top. Shoot, why not simply ask for a full 12 channel
outboard mixer/DAC be miniaturized and stuff in next to the 100 W amp,
sub reciver, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Not trying to be a jerk... just trying to adjust your perspective a
bit. Hope your DXpedition goes swimmingly. If you don't need a lot of
additional external channels, you might try one of the ASUS or other
external sound cards devices folks use with/for the LP-PAN II and other
devices... Many of them are 192kHz, pretty low noise and a decently
flat frequency response.

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 9/19/2017 5:55 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA wrote:

> Thanks Christopher,
>
> compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather
> poor. And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just
> 48KHz.
> Rather disappointing, to be honest.
>
> 73 Udo, DK5YA
>
> Am 20.09.2017 um 00:24 schrieb Christopher Hoover:
>> The circuit is based on PCM2901 <<http://www.ti.com/product/PCM2901>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     Gentleman,
>>
>>     I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of
>>     the KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
>>     Anybody out there who's got detailed information?
>>
>>     I.e.:
>>     Sample Rates
>>     Frequency Response
>>     Dynamic Range
>>     THD+N
>>     Noise EIN
>>     THD+N Outputs
>>
>>     I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our
>>     144/432 EME DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like
>>     to reduce parts we have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3
>>     with us, usually connected to very high quality external sound
>>     devices (Focusrite Scarlett, Delta 44). Since we are doing
>>     moonbounce (JT65b) and each and every dB counts we are focussing on
>>     lowest noise possible in our sound devices. If the internal sound
>>     card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we could propably reduce
>>     weight and lower all the cable mess a lot.
>>
>>     73 Udo, on behalf of DX7EME team
>>
>>     P.S.: Anybody in the group using the internal sound device on EME?
>>     P.P.S.: I'be ordered a KIO3B already and will upgrade one of the
>>     K3's at the end of the week, delivery permitting.
>>
>>     --     ******************************************
>>     Webs by DK5YA: *
>>     http://www.dx7eme.de/
>>     http://www.mmmonvhf.de/ [editor]*
>>     http://www.vhfdx.de/ [owner] *
>>     http://www.solweb.de/ [owner] *
>>     http://www.spessartwetter.de/ [owner] *
>>     ******************************************
>>
>>     ______________________________________________________________
>>     Elecraft mailing list
>>     Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>     <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
>>     Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>     <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
>>     Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>>     This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>     Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>     Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

On 9/19/2017 3:55 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA wrote:
> compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather
> poor. And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just
> 48KHz.

Don't fall into the trap of "specsmanship" and thinking you need cutting
edge audio products for ham radio, which is a FAR less demanding
application. WSJT-X operates at 48 kHz 16-bit, no matter how exotic your
sound card, the ~90 dB dynamic rangeand 5 kHz audio BW are more than
sufficient for the audio I/O for the digital modes used in ham radio. I
can't comment on audio distortion -- I haven't bothered to add a KIO3B
to my vintage K3s. IMO, THD+N doesn't matter, THD and IM do.

Greater sampling ratesand a few more bits ARE useful for the I/Q signals
needed to drive spectrum displays, but the K3S does not provide I/Q data
via the USB port.

Great engineering is buying only what is needed for good performance,
not paying for stuff you don't need.

73, Jim K9YC

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Richard Lamont

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

On 19/09/17 22:05, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA wrote:

> I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of the
> KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
> Anybody out there who's got detailed information?
>
> I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our 144/432
> EME DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like to reduce
> parts we have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3 with us, usually
> connected to very high quality external sound devices (Focusrite
> Scarlett, Delta 44). Since we are doing moonbounce (JT65b) and each and
> every dB counts we are focussing on lowest noise possible in our sound
> devices. If the internal sound card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we
> could propably reduce weight and lower all the cable mess a lot.

While EME needs every last fraction of a dB of RF performance, the same
is not true of an audio interface used for JT65. In this respect, EME is
less demanding than day-to-day HF operation, where the passband may have
20 or more signals of widely varying strengths.

As long as you follow the WSJT-X authors' advice about setting levels, a
consumer-grade audio interface such as that in the KIO3B is more than
adequate. A studio-quality audio interface will add nothing to the
performance of your station.

WSJT-X requires audio input as 16-bit linear PCM, sampled at 48 kHz.
(The next thing it does is to downsample to 12 kHz.) So there's no
advantage in greater bit-depths or sampling frequencies.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Richard Lamont

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 20/09/17 05:06, Jim Brown wrote:

> WSJT-X operates at 48 kHz 16-bit, no matter how exotic your
> sound card, the ~90 dB dynamic rangeand 5 kHz audio BW are more than
> sufficient for the audio I/O for the digital modes used in ham radio.

When operating JT65 or FT8 on HF, and having (as recommended) turned AGC
off and adjusted the K3S's gain to set the level to 30 dB on WSJT-X's
'thermometer' on white noise, I've had strong signals drive the system
over the clipping point on HF. This can occur with either a very strong
local signal or 1000km+ sporadic-E.

IMHO the 16-bit dynamic range of the KIO3B and WSJT-X's internals are
not quite good enough for these fortunately rare occurrences. Another 10
dB would suffice, but achieving it would of course require changing the
whole chain from ADC onwards.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Jim Sheldon

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

Udo,
I've been using my K3S on FT-8 with great success via the K3S' internal
soundcard. I use it with MMTTY all the time as well and it decodes
better than a HAL ST-8000 I used to own. Listen to what K9YC says, he
knows what he's talking about.

W0EB

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 9/19/2017 11:06:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

>On 9/19/2017 3:55 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA wrote:
>>compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather
>>poor. And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just
>>48KHz.
>
>Don't fall into the trap of "specsmanship" and thinking you need
>cutting edge audio products for ham radio, which is a FAR less
>demanding application. WSJT-X operates at 48 kHz 16-bit,

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Udo Langenohl - DK5YA

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

Sounds good, gonna give it a try next week and will compare external
stuff / internal stuff and let the group know. KIO3B is expected to
arrive tomorrow.

Thanks@all in the group replying.

73 Udo, DK5YA / DX7EME

Am 20.09.2017 um 13:53 schrieb Jim Sheldon:

> Udo,
> I've been using my K3S on FT-8 with great success via the K3S' internal
> soundcard. I use it with MMTTY all the time as well and it decodes
> better than a HAL ST-8000 I used to own. Listen to what K9YC says, he
> knows what he's talking about.
>
> W0EB
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: 9/19/2017 11:06:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Specs KIO3-B internal sound card
>
>> On 9/19/2017 3:55 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA wrote:
>>> compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather
>>> poor. And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just
>>> 48KHz.
>>
>> Don't fall into the trap of "specsmanship" and thinking you need
>> cutting edge audio products for ham radio, which is a FAR less
>> demanding application. WSJT-X operates at 48 kHz 16-bit,
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
******************************************
Webs by DK5YA: *
http://www.mmmonvhf.de/ [editor]*
http://www.vhfdx.de/ [owner] *
http://www.palekastro.de/ [owner] *
http://www.solweb.de/ [owner] *
http://www.spessartwetter.de/ [owner] *
******************************************

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Robert .

Re: Specs KIO3-B internal sound card

In reply to this post by Clay Autery-2

Asus U5 in use with older K3
Works great
At home qth

Looking forward to this weekend using K3 with usb kiob3 sound for rtty
At vy2

73 Robert W5AJ

On Sep 19, 2017 9:32 PM, "Clay Autery" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Don't you think being "rather disappoint[ed]" in the internal sound card
is a bit demanding? Do you really expect a 192 kHz, studio grade DAC
internal to the radio?

I understand the desire for low noise and wide bandwidth... I do. But
to put a Focusrite Scarlett grade sound interface internal to the radio
is simply over the top. Shoot, why not simply ask for a full 12 channel
outboard mixer/DAC be miniaturized and stuff in next to the 100 W amp,
sub reciver, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

Not trying to be a jerk... just trying to adjust your perspective a
bit. Hope your DXpedition goes swimmingly. If you don't need a lot of
additional external channels, you might try one of the ASUS or other
external sound cards devices folks use with/for the LP-PAN II and other
devices... Many of them are 192kHz, pretty low noise and a decently
flat frequency response.

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
(318) 518-1389

On 9/19/2017 5:55 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA wrote:

> Thanks Christopher,
>
> compared to high quality external devices SNR and THD+N is rather
> poor. And so is the dynamic range and the max. sampling rate of just
> 48KHz.
> Rather disappointing, to be honest.
>
> 73 Udo, DK5YA
>
> Am 20.09.2017 um 00:24 schrieb Christopher Hoover:
>> The circuit is based on PCM2901 <<http://www.ti.com/product/PCM2901>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Udo Langenohl - DK5YA
>> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> Gentleman,
>>
>> I'm looking for specs of the internal sound device which is part of
>> the KIO3B board but couldn't find any on the Elecraft web site.
>> Anybody out there who's got detailed information?
>>
>> I.e.:
>> Sample Rates
>> Frequency Response
>> Dynamic Range
>> THD+N
>> Noise EIN
>> THD+N Outputs
>>
>> I'm just preparing all the stuff we gonna take with us for our
>> 144/432 EME DXPedition to DU (DX7EME) in November and I would like
>> to reduce parts we have to carry as much as I can. We have two K3
>> with us, usually connected to very high quality external sound
>> devices (Focusrite Scarlett, Delta 44). Since we are doing
>> moonbounce (JT65b) and each and every dB counts we are focussing on
>> lowest noise possible in our sound devices. If the internal sound
>> card of the KIO3B will meet our needs we could propably reduce
>> weight and lower all the cable mess a lot.
>>
>> 73 Udo, on behalf of DX7EME team
>>
>> P.S.: Anybody in the group using the internal sound device on EME?
>> P.P.S.: I'be ordered a KIO3B already and will upgrade one of the
>> K3's at the end of the week, delivery permitting.
>>
>> -- ******************************************
>> Webs by DK5YA: *
>> http://www.dx7eme.de/
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