Subject: Re: KXBC3 clock drift

[Edward R Cole]

I think this topic is a little over the edge.

Do ALL radios have clocks, even??  My 1950's HQ100C had a clock which
was option C in the model number.  It was an electric clock.  Do I
wish the K3 clock kept better time?  Yes, but its not something I'm
going to bother Elecraft about.

Accurate time is required for some digital modes but they run in a
computer so that is where accurate time is needed.  Several sources
of atomic quality time are available from the Internet.

But if you are off the grid then some other time std is needed.  GPS
time is probably the answer.  I bought a GPS with USB dongle for
under $50 dollars which there is software to update the computer time.

Now a utility on my computer with access to accurate time that could
be downloaded to my K3 once per day or once per week would be
nice.  It could elicit the K3 Utility program to connect and update
the K3 clock, automatically.  No change to the K3 clock hardware
would be needed.

I assume this not rocket science for all you computer whizzes.  I'm
not suggesting Elecraft take this on - somebody else.  Surely the K3
utility is not that hard a nut to crack?

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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[Lewis Phelps]

I concur, and suggest another path for those who have a strong need for 0.01 second accuracy of their rig’s clock.

There are Arduino GPS shields available for $40 and less.  If one were so inclined, it would seem feasible to use an Arduino with GPS shield connected to the serial port of the rig; you could even build a pass-through connector sot that other serial devices could be connected.

Lew N6LEW

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 2:03 PM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think this topic is a little over the edge.
>
> Do ALL radios have clocks, even??  My 1950's HQ100C had a clock which was option C in the model number.  It was an electric clock.  Do I wish the K3 clock kept better time?  Yes, but its not something I'm going to bother Elecraft about.
>
> Accurate time is required for some digital modes but they run in a computer so that is where accurate time is needed.  Several sources of atomic quality time are available from the Internet.
>
> But if you are off the grid then some other time std is needed.  GPS time is probably the answer.  I bought a GPS with USB dongle for under $50 dollars which there is software to update the computer time.
>
> Now a utility on my computer with access to accurate time that could be downloaded to my K3 once per day or once per week would be nice.  It could elicit the K3 Utility program to connect and update the K3 clock, automatically.  No change to the K3 clock hardware would be needed.
>
> I assume this not rocket science for all you computer whizzes.  I'm not suggesting Elecraft take this on - somebody else.  Surely the K3 utility is not that hard a nut to crack?
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
>    "Kits made by KL7UW"
> Dubus Mag business:
>    [hidden email]
>
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>

Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800
[hidden email]
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put together will fall apart.





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[Bill Frantz]

There is a difference of about 15 seconds between GPS time and
UTC time. GPS time does not include the recent leap seconds. The
GPS message includes the current difference between GPS time and
UTC. I don't know which time the JT modes use, probably UTC.

See:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Timekeeping>,
and <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_standard>. For an idea
of how complex the idea of time really is, see <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_Time>.


The ideal programs to have automatically update the K3(S) and
KX3 clocks would be logging programs and utilities that are
running "all the time". RUMlogNG, N2MM, Win4K3Suite, etc.


When I built my BeagleBone Box, a low power computer using a
BeagleBone system board, I had to add a real-time clock. I chose
a high precision one, the ChronoDot - Ultra-precise Real Time
Clock (v2.1) from Adafruit part# 255 = $17.50. I wanted
precision in case I wanted to run JT modes while out in the wilderness.

I just checked it and found it 23 seconds slow compared with
NTP. It has been at least 5 months since I synced the clock on
that computer, and probably a lot more. Not too bad for a clock
that runs off a button battery. (Hmmm, that describes my watch
too, but the ChronoDot is significantly more precise.)

73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/28/16 at 2:03 PM, [hidden email] (Edward R Cole) wrote:

>But if you are off the grid then some other time std is
>needed.  GPS time is probably the answer.  I bought a GPS with
>USB dongle for under $50 dollars which there is software to
>update the computer time.
>
>Now a utility on my computer with access to accurate time that
>could be downloaded to my K3 once per day or once per week
>would be nice.  It could elicit the K3 Utility program to
>connect and update the K3 clock, automatically.  No change to
>the K3 clock hardware would be needed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz        |"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics
refer to
408-356-8506       | reality, they are not certain; and insofar
they are
www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.”
-- Einstein

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[Jim Brown-10]

I don't know either, but need accurate time on my computer to use the
various WSJT modes. For about four years, I've used a freeware Windoze
utility called NetTime. www.timesynctool.com  There are several other
such programs in common use.

73, Jim K9YC


On Sun,8/28/2016 4:02 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> There is a difference of about 15 seconds between GPS time and UTC
> time. GPS time does not include the recent leap seconds. The GPS
> message includes the current difference between GPS time and UTC. I
> don't know which time the JT modes use, probably UTC.


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[Elecraft mailing list]

Re:  "...Tweak the rate a bit each time the clock is set."

Back in early 2013, there was some discussion on the Yahoo Group about doing something like that either through the Utility, or even a menu entry with "factor" that could be adjusted by the user.  It never went a anywhere because most of us just learned to ignore the clock, or be sure to reset the clock when we are setting up a site.

As I recall, Wayne's KX3 was far more accurate than some of ours, and he was a bit surprised.  Mine was one of the worst ones, but it has either gotten better in that 3 year period, or I am more tolerant now than I was then.  I think it is the latter since retirement has helped me stop worrying about such little things.

Mark
KE6BB


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[Joe Stone (KF5WBO)]

>> Re:  "...Tweak the rate a bit each time the clock is set."
>
> Back in early 2013, there was some discussion on the
> Yahoo Group about doing something like that either
> through the Utility, or even a menu entry with "factor"
> that could be adjusted by the user.  It never went a
> anywhere because most of us just learned to ignore
> the clock, or be sure to reset the clock when we are
> setting up a site.

This was implemented with the KX2, "RTC ADJ".  Any feedback from KX2 owner's who purchased the KX2 / KXIO2 Real Time Clock?

> If the KX3 clock isn’t stable with temperature, it isn’t worth bothering.

The accuracy of RTC IC's (e.g., DS3231) are typically measured in seconds per year (+/-2 ppm) across a broad range of temperatures (e.g., 32°F to 104°F).  The KX3 / KXBC3 uses a PIC microcontroller to keep time, not a RTC IC.

The KX2 manual states, "Monitor your clock's accuracy over 24 hours, preferably at your typical ambient operating temperature."  I'm not sure there's such a thing as a "typical ambient operating temperature" for a portable rig like the KX2 and KX3.

Joe
KF5WBO